Denied Admission to NROTC Scholarship Unit

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Dolphins2012, Mar 26, 2012.

  1. Dolphins2012

    Dolphins2012 Parent

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    My DS just found out he did not get in to the college whose NROTC unit he was assigned for his 4 year scholarship. The good news is that this was his Plan B - his Plan A is USNA where he's accepted his appointment for 2016. Nevertheless, we want to keep a viable back up plan in place. Do we request a change of units to his Plan C college, or do we let the NROTC CO at Plan B know DS did not get into the school and see what the CO says (I've heard in some cases of the NROTC CO helping a denied applicant be reconsidered, although we're a bit hesitant about this as DS does not intend to go there, but USNA)?
    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. wait4now

    wait4now Member

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    I'm curious which college he didn't get into. It must be even more competitive there than USNA.
     
  3. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Not necessarily. Other schools have geographic obligations as well. He may not have been from the right geography, or competition may have been more intense due to geography and not the school per se. UVA for an out of state student comes to mind as an example.
     
  4. Moosestache

    Moosestache Member

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    MIT, and the Ivy Leagues certainly come to mind as schools that are extremely competitive to get into, perhaps more so than the military academies at times.
     
  5. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Either approach can work I guess, provided you plan on sending in the deposit by the acceptance deadline to reserve his slot at the school. I suppose you may even need to send deposits to both schools as you try to work things out one way or the other.

    I have argued in the past that ROTC scholarship holders should hang on to their scholarship as a backup plan. I still generally hold to that view, but I'm not sure I agree with jumping through hoops to retain a scholarship you don't intend to use. However my own uncertainty on this issue has no bearing on what you should do, and it certainly doesn't make you a bad person if you attempt to retain the scholarship. I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot I would do all I could to 'insure' my DS as well. Best of luck to you all. And thanks for putting up with my rambling 'aloud'.
     
  6. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    If your DS has already accepted the appointment to USNA, you won't realistically be able to keep the ROTC option open for long (there is a deadline in a month or so when all ROTC awardees will be asked to confirm their intention again; you'll receive this in the mail soon if you haven't already). Actually, the better way to do things is to DELAY acceptance of the SA appointment until the stated deadline. Accepting an appointment early can potentially hurt the chances of other candidates.

    I expect that the only plan B you'll have over the summer is to pay a deposit to another school that you can afford without scholarship (see SA Parents thread above for recent discussion). I know from personal experience last year how hard it is to start shutting down doors and declining a lot of money. But that is the way it goes. :redface:

    Congrats on USNA!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2012
  7. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    kinnem, I think the only way one could hold onto the scholarship is to lie on the intention form that is sent out in April. This is NOT a good way to start a career. Also, I think the SAs share social security numbers of new cadets/ROTC awardees, so it likely wouldn't work even if the candidate lied on the form.

    I think lying on the form is grounds for the SA revoking an appointment. Who would risk that? Stated differently, in lawyer speak, who in their right mind would try to reduce risk if such risk reduction actually increased that risk significantly??
     
  8. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I absolutely agree. I didn't know about any confirmation form. Is this something new? Un any case I've only ever seen this discussion come up in the past when a ROTC scholarship had been accepted prior to an appointment, so this particular case is a bit odd.
     
  9. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    Looking back through posting history, I saw that OP's son was applying entirely to top-25 universities and was contemplating Chem-E.

    Top-25 schools, especially engineering schools, are notoriously a crap-shoot for admissions, particularly so if you don't have some kind of national honor in the field. Any of the OOS publics on the top-25 list (Berkeley, UVA, Michigan) are going to be tough to get into. IIRC though OP had UIUC on the list as well, which should have been an admit. I guess that is not where the scholarship was to... Oh well. No shame in getting denied to a top school.
     
  10. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    kinnem, if I recall correctly, AROTC and AFROTC both had a deadline for the "second confirmation letter" of May 30 or mid June. I think the reason this comes up in the context of where the ROTC scholarship is accepted first is because of several reasons:

    1. It is perfectly okay for an ROTC candidate to accept an ROTC scholarship and still pursue other options that the candidate might prefer over the ROTC scholarship offer. For each of the services, ROTC actually URGES folks when offered an ROTC scholarship to accept the scholarship without much further thought and then instructs the candidate (paraphrasing), "Don't worry, there is no moral obligation to follow through on this scholarship acceptance until we ask you to confirm your intentions". In this sense, a "moral" obligation does not arise until that second letter comes and specifically asks the candidate to state his or her intention, whereby it would be wrong to affirmatively state an intention when, in fact, he or she harbors no intention or an entirely different intention (note: a moral obligation is quite different than a legal obligation -- the legal obligation does not arise until after the ROTC cadet matriculates and becomes a "contract" cadet after the "evaluation" period has elapsed, which is typically after the first year for a 4-year scholarship -- all candidates need to read these agreements very carefully). The lawyers here on SAF know well that the ROTC "offer" will not give rise to a contract at all, because it is what is known in the trade as an "illusory contract" offer and thus would fail in any court of law if ROTC ever sought to enforce it, even if accepted. The SA Appointment offer, however, contains no such illusory language and, I think, thus gives rise to a "moral" obligation to follow through on the appointment once accepted.

    2. ROTC also knows that many of their awardees have co-pending SA applications. In that sense, the ROTC folks know that they are "competing" among themselves for officer candidates and accept this under the notion that the military will get a fine officer at the end of the day regardless. But I am certain that the SAs would object very loudly if ROTC were to try to gain the upper hand on viable SA applicants by forcing the ROTC awardees to accept/reject the scholarship within the very tight deadline that ROTC imposes, usually long before the SA admissions decisions have been announced. Placing candidates under that dilemma is unfair in my opinion.

    3. ROTC further knows that candidates have co-pending applications to their School Number 1, which is likely not required to issue an admissions decision until after April 1 for regular decision students. The offer from ROTC, however, can frequently be to a lower-priced School Number 2. Again, it is only fair to permit the ROTC candidate reserve judgment about which school to attend until all offers are on the table.

    4. There is also a difference in the way ROTC money and SA appointments are accounted. The scholarship money awarded in ROTC, as I understand it, is recycled -- but NOT for current applicants. Instead, it is my understanding that any declined ROTC scholarship money is used later in the year for on-campus scholarships from an accounting point of view (I suppose that there is enough time between the October board and the March board for AROTC to use unclaimed October money to increase the number of March offers, but most of the other offers in NROTC and AFROTC and Jan/Mar AROTC are too close in time for the accountants to re-work things in sufficient time). In this respect, an "accepted" scholarship offer does not deny another applicant of an ROTC scholarship. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's what I understand how it works.

    Accepting an SA appointment works differently. If a candidate accepts an appointment, that means one slot cannot go to another current applicant before the deadline passes for that current applicant to accept or decline his or her other options. In that sense, the candidate is actually hurting his fellow Class of 2016 comrades in arms by accepting an appointment and later deciding not to attend the SA. Of course, there are no legal ramifications for the candidate who does this, though. It's more of a "right and wrong" issue, although there are SA appointees who do not receive their appointments until the summer (presumably made possible an appointment declined by another candidate). Certainly, I don't recall seeing any "loosey-goosey" language in the USMA appointment offer that said anything like what was in the ROTC offer ("Don't worry about an obligation here, we'll confirm your decision at a later date.").

    Last year, my DS did not make his decision until all of his options were on the table. This meant delaying his decision until the common May 1 deadline for all civilian schools and USMA. As I recall, admissions decisions from all the civilian schools came in around April 1 (USMA came in around the middle of January). This gave him about three weeks to evaluate each option and pick the best one (and also allow one week within which to communicate the decision). Admittedly, I influenced his decision to delay acceptance of the SA appointment, because I wanted to teach him the proper way to make decisions instead of acting on impulse (and a thing or two about contract law!). Once DS had made the decision to attend USMA, however, he then immediately contacted his Regional Commander at USMA and asked what was the best way to go about turning down his ROTC options. USMA said that the right thing to do is to inform Cadet Command and to speak with each ROTC unit he had been speaking to as soon as possible, and this is what he did.

    I suspect that the SA would MUCH rather have appointment offers accepted immediately, as any college admissions office would, but there is the May 1 deadline that is common to all, and it is there for a reason. I don't know the history of that common May 1 deadline, but I suspect it came about to minimize the recruiting games that some all-too-eager admissions offices may have employed prior to its inception.

    Of course, if a candidate hasn't pursued any other options other than the SA (not advisable), then there is no reason not to accept the appointment immediately.

    I suppose one can say that paying the deposit to a local state school (no scholarship) as a "Plan B" to any SA is unfair to others who applied to that local state school. But as I recall, the local state school never asked my DS to formally "confirm" his intention. Also, it is built into the local state school's model that THOUSANDS of those paying the deposit will attend another school if picked up on the "wait list" at another school. In that respect, the fact that a candidate survives summer training at an SA and then informs the local school shortly thereafter that he or she is going to stick it out at the SA isn't a big deal. Last year, I recall contacting the local state school for which we paid the deposit and informed them that DS was attending USMA over the summer and would know for sure whether he was injured or not by August. The response that I received was basically, "No problem. Please keep us informed." What else could they say? They certainly couldn't complain that they were not aware of the situation.

    BOTTOM LINE: I share the view that all candidates should cast their net broadly. Come April, however, it's decision time. Make one decision and stick with it, unless something unforeseen happens.

    Well, at least this is all just one parent's view.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2012
  11. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Thanks patentesq! A lawyer who writes simply and clearly. Who knew? :biggrin:
     
  12. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    Actually, one of the best writers I've seen on this forum is scoutpilot. And he ain't even a lawyer! :eek:

    I was actually going to tighten up my last post, but I'm too tired to edit right now.
     
  13. Packer

    Packer Member

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    I seem to recall reading last year about candidates who had received academy appointments and ROTC scholarships and held on to their scholarship up until R-day. I think one even had held on to it until BCT was complete. I would doubt that the scholarship could remain valid after reporting. Is the confirmation that ROTC sends out something new within the last year or two?
    A reason I have seen for holding the ROTC scholarship is that one could get injured, say sprain an ankle, and be unable to report on R-day but be healed in plenty of time for college and ROTC in September. I have not seen the confirmation form and am not questioning the moral aspect of keeping ones word but wonder how someone could hold the scholarship and the appointment if SS #'s are shared/cross referenced etc.
     
  14. Dolphins2012

    Dolphins2012 Parent

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    DS has not received anything yet requiring that he confirm acceptance of his scholarship for NROTC. I recall reading in his NROTC materials that by showing up on I-Day, he automatically forfeits his scholarship, e.g. he can't drop out of USNA during plebe summer and go to his NROTC college come August on his NROTC scholarship (although he could go NROTC non-scholarship and reapply for the scholarship to commence the following year).

    It is correctly pointed out here that most schools have a deadline for acceptance though (usually May 1) by which one must send in their deposit to confirm their spot. That money would be forfeited, of course, if nothing prevents DS from showing up on I-Day.

    It seems the most prudent thing is to seek to transfer the scholarship to the "new" Plan B (i.e. the Plan C) school by submitting the request form to the Navy. It will then become moot if he does not submit a deposit on May 1 to that new Plan B school, and any request for confirmation of acceptance of the scholarship would be returned with notice that he's declining it. However, if we decide to pay the deposit out of caution, we'll confirm acceptance and on I-Day that acceptance will be automatically voided.
     
  15. nuensis

    nuensis USNA 2016

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    From the award letter:

    So:

    If you show up on I-Day and sign on the dotted line, the NROTC scholarship is forfeited.

    If you disenroll from USNA and want to enroll in NROTC you must contact the Professor of Naval Science at the university in which you wish to enroll, convince him to plead your case, and ask him to route a request to NSTC. You must also include an explanation of why you were disenrolled (will probably have to be for a VERY good reason, not "I couldn't hack it") and a record of disenrollment.

    If you disenroll from USNA it's possible to enroll in NROTC as a college programmer, but you'll have to compete for a scholarship and advanced standing again.


    So from what I'm gathering, it's best to think VERY, VERY carefully before showing up on I-Day and VERY, VERY carefully before deciding to leave USNA, because it looks like the odds are stacked against you if you decide you want to become a naval officer after leaving USNA.

    Not sure if accepting an appointment counts as "enrollment" though.
     
  16. USNA1982BGO

    USNA1982BGO Retired Staff Member

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    Once you send your "yes" to USNA you forfeit your NROTC scholarship. No take-backs.
     
  17. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Well that certainly cleared that up in 20 words or less.
     
  18. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    Interesting that USNA does things differently (AROTC and AFROTC ask the applicant to confirm intentions).

    USNA1982BGO, can you confirm that the converse is NOT true? In other words, if a candidate accepts the NROTC scholarship, that does not forfeit the USNA appointment/application?
     
  19. nuensis

    nuensis USNA 2016

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    It does not. I accepted an NROTC scholarship back in November, and received an appointment in January.
     
  20. Candidad

    Candidad Member

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    This is the timeliest thread ever. My son has accepted his appointment to USNA, but it is dawning on us that there is a weird period of radio silence between May 1 (by which you must accept an offer of university admission) and I-day on June 28.

    If "Once you send your 'yes' to USNA you forfeit your NROTC scholarship. No take-backs." is true; that changes everything for us, so can we take this to the bank? (I've read it as once you are inducted into the Navy on the 28th you forfeit your NROTC scholarship.)

    So should one accept one offer of admission elsewhere as a backup, knowing you have an appointment? The alternative is a year bagging groceries if he's hurt in June. Where we live, community colleges are capping enrollment early. That would be a tough pill to swallow after 12 years of hard work.

    Here is our situation - I don't think it is particularly unusual.

    Son accepted appointment to USNA and fully intends to be there on June 28. He is in the process of clearing up an administrative remedial through DodMERB for a fall football injury that completely healed per the MRI and doctor's statement. (He's currently playing varsity baseball. He isn't hurt.) We think (hope) this is a record keeping exercise.

    But he could, of course, get hurt. If he's hurt after May 1 we don't want him to have zero college options. He has plenty of Plan B options, four of which include NROTC. (He has a 4-year scholarship; and was wait-listed at Choice #3.)

    He has been assigned to University A, his first NROTC choice, and was just accepted there. They offer no merit scholarship, but he should be competitive for a room & board stipend. The irony is that with an appointment, NROTC isn't the first choice, but without NROTC we can't afford the school. (Not completely true of course; it's only another mortgage.)

    University B, his second NROTC choice, did offer a substantial merit-based scholarship that would make attendance a lot more affordable. This is a popular unit and it is hard to say if Pensacola would be able to make the switch.

    University C wait-listed him. University D shares the same NROTC unit as UC and offered him money. He could go there and 'walk on' if the ROTC scholarship isn't transferred. Also a popular unit.

    Universities F and G are viable financially through merit scholarships (one more so than the other), and have NROTC units that are probably less crowded.

    Universities H through I forget do not have NROTC units and are all financially viable to some extent or another without NROTC.

    So if he has already forfeited his NROTC scholarship, he can simply pick his contingent school (we'll gladly forfeit the deposit on June 29) based on desire and affordability.

    But if he hasn't already forfeited his NROTC scholarship, he'd like to keep it alive in case he's too hurt for June, but OK in late August/September. Then the only decision is whether to send in his deposit to University A or try to have the scholarship reassigned from A to B, C or .... to keep all options open in case he's hurt in late summer. Our next step would be to write Pensacola if he wanted to switch, but we do not want to do this out of turn. So that original forfeiture question is really important.

    We understand that in life sometimes you roll the dice and see what happens. He knows he is fortunate, and I apologize if this offends members who are still waiting to hear back from an academy or ROTC.

    P.S. His assigned NROTC unit commander is unaware of his appointment, so I don't know if there is that communication. We haven't seen, read, or heard anything about another confirmation form. His NROTC unit commander said he'd be getting a thick packet of information in June.
     

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