Drones change 'Top Gun' culture of Air Force

Just shut it down, it's gotten out of control.

Nah I don't think so... Was it quickly getting there? You bet but I still feel (for what that's worth) this is a good discussion point. I think the two of you were trying to make a point and it got personal. That's all. Now that I pointed that out to the both of you we can get back to the discussion....

Which I think is we have articles out there that are stating we are moving to more unmanned flight but there are certain things that sound good on paper or good sound bites in todays world but my be harder to implement.

Personally each of our branches have certain mission to project force and each airframe plays a certain role in that mission manned or unmanned. But that's just me and have no real life experience to draw on like Scout who I think is "playing in the sandbox" as we discuss this.

Once again just my limited view on this that's why I was lurking this thread to see what others thought.
 
Your articles are nice. Interesting reads. But as I keep trying to point out to you, almost none of our projections of what our future force would look like have held true. You want kids to read these as gospel. I'm saying "not so fast." You can't hold that this is a site for discussion and then cry foul when someone tells you you're wrong.

The main issues with an RPA force are...

1. Money. If you haven't heard, we're almost fresh out. While it's fun to believe we will have gangs of cash to create a new fleet, pretty much everyone who knows budgetary math will tell you that won't be the case. We're in the midst of a huge reinvestment in current airframes, all with planned lifespans beyond 2030, from the CH-47F to UH-60M, to updated CAAS and new-build AAS airframes.

2. If you're putting humans on them, then humans will be at the controls. That's >50% of our mission set.

3. Flexibility. A human on scene can manage what a human miles away cannot, no matter how many cameras you give him.

4. Vulnerability. RPAs rely on GPS and solid link. Our GPS is incredibly susceptible to jamming. That's a structural flaw we can't avoid. RPAs are great in a permissive environment. Beyond that, EW can crush an RPA fleet.

Those are just the headline concerns that are well-known within the community.

What's the real future? Manned-Unmanned teaming.

Of course, the idea of an RPA force is predicated on one view of future conflicts. But I digress.

Possibly the best post on this particular thread, outside of the few zingers and one liners posted earlier.

Look, Polaris, it's nice to engage in the "big thoughts" scheme of things. And you are correct when you conclude that the leadership of the military has reached a supportable and undeniable conclusion that remotely piloted vehicles (and eventually no-pilot-in-the-loop, artificially intelligent aircraft (but we are a LONG way from getting to that point)) will play a significant role in tomorrow's battlefield.

But, as scout has pointed out, there are severe limitations on what RPAs can do or not do. His list above is a good start. I would add that the communications and bandwidth requirements would make today's internet look like a 3.5" floppy drive (look it up, I know your Google skills are unparallelled). That alone makes "fleets of UAVs" a very expensive, and very unlikley, scenario. And please don't think that tomorrow's wars will look like today's, or even yesterday's, in regards to how much we control the skies. Iran's recent claims to "hack the controls" of some of our UAVs clearly demonstrate we are a long way from the end of the pilot years. And the leadership knows this, despite what you read in an AV Week article or current (or not so current) publication or interview with a General du-jour.

The control of the skies is a much more complex mission than ANY UAV can currently handle, or would be able to handle for at least decades. Despite what a few arm-chair Generals in the media or in the halls of Congress think.

A little side note for you. I am currently an active part of the AF team looking at what we will replace the F-22 and F-35 with. Looking well beyond what you, and perhaps your children, will eventually see above the future battlefield. Making this aircraft remotely piloted, or even using AI to keep the man out of the loop? Looked at, then quickly discarded. A UAV just wouldn't be able to handle the mission alone, not even 30 years from now. Why? Remember, you can make all the plans you want, but the enemy always has a vote, and it is rarely what you hoped he would vote for.

Scout's point on teaming manned and unmanned is spot on.
 
I didn't and I won't read all the articles, since I've read this stuff before. Also, I won't pretend to know much.

What neither of our interlocutors mentioned is that many UAV's are or will be designed for new kinds of missions, which would never be carried out by manned aircraft in the first place, like looking over the next hill or in an urban environment or staying aloft by himself for 12-14 hours.

As a taxpayer and human being I am all for it. My brother's good friend from pilot training is still officially MIA, having not returned from a recon mission in Vietnam. He was in an O-2 Skymaster. I'd like to know the wordsmith who came up with the name of "Skymaster" for a @#$%^& Cessna.
 
What neither of our interlocutors mentioned is that many UAV's are or will be designed for new kinds of missions, which would never be carried out by manned aircraft in the first place, like looking over the next hill or in an urban environment or staying aloft by himself for 12-14 hours.

Well, this interlocutor (nice word by the way, I had to Google it :wink:) certainly realizes that RPAs will continue to increase in capability and be an important asset for multiple future mission sets. Only a fool doesn't understand this. However, only a fool would also believe that RPAs would be anywhere near capable of handling ALL mission sets for the foreseeable future.

Aviators are becoming like the Dinosaur, but they just aren't near extinction yet. :biggrin:
 
I didn't and I won't read all the articles, since I've read this stuff before. Also, I won't pretend to know much.

What neither of our interlocutors mentioned is that many UAV's are or will be designed for new kinds of missions, which would never be carried out by manned aircraft in the first place, like looking over the next hill or in an urban environment or staying aloft by himself for 12-14 hours.

As a taxpayer and human being I am all for it. My brother's good friend from pilot training is still officially MIA, having not returned from a recon mission in Vietnam. He was in an O-2 Skymaster. I'd like to know the wordsmith who came up with the name of "Skymaster" for a @#$%^& Cessna.

Cessna came up with it. The O-2 was simply a Cessna 337 Skymaster, often colloquially called the Mixmaster because of its counter-rotating centerline pusher/puller propellor setup.
 
Possibly the best post on this particular thread, outside of the few zingers and one liners posted earlier.

Look, Polaris, it's nice to engage in the "big thoughts" scheme of things. And you are correct when you conclude that the leadership of the military has reached a supportable and undeniable conclusion that remotely piloted vehicles (and eventually no-pilot-in-the-loop, artificially intelligent aircraft (but we are a LONG way from getting to that point)) will play a significant role in tomorrow's battlefield.

But, as scout has pointed out, there are severe limitations on what RPAs can do or not do. His list above is a good start. I would add that the communications and bandwidth requirements would make today's internet look like a 3.5" floppy drive (look it up, I know your Google skills are unparallelled). That alone makes "fleets of UAVs" a very expensive, and very unlikley, scenario. And please don't think that tomorrow's wars will look like today's, or even yesterday's, in regards to how much we control the skies. Iran's recent claims to "hack the controls" of some of our UAVs clearly demonstrate we are a long way from the end of the pilot years. And the leadership knows this, despite what you read in an AV Week article or current (or not so current) publication or interview with a General du-jour.

The control of the skies is a much more complex mission than ANY UAV can currently handle, or would be able to handle for at least decades. Despite what a few arm-chair Generals in the media or in the halls of Congress think.

Remember, Polaris, all those aviator generals like high-dollar jobs when they retire. Pimp the "next tech" and fluff the aviation industry cash cow publicly and suddenly you're Mr. Popular with all the right firms...

Look up what E.J. Sinclair is doing these days.
 
I will be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about flying any aircraft…..Let me reprase that….I know nothing about ANY Aircraft.

But I do know what it is like to fly in more than a few under duress need their assistance at a moment’s notice, and what it is like to survive a crash and I can tell you this.

I want that dustoff to have a human at the controls who is physically present and not “Miles away”.

I want to be able to speak to that CAS aircraft and know that there is a person in that cockpit…There is a “Feel” for the battle that someone who is there just understands. I have yet to have that from a drone operator.

Oh and when that helo I am riding in decides it needs to “fall out of the sky”…I want to know that the pilot who is up front has just as much “skin in the game” as I do.

Anyways, that is my take on this….from an old Grunt….for whatever that is worth.

Exactly. Same goes for the SAR helicopters in the Coast Guard. There's nothing robotic that's going to replace a helo hovering over the water at night to rescue people any time soon.

RPA's/UAV's do have some good capabilities as others have mentioned. But I think the more pressing issue with the government is this fiscal cliff and actually being able to fund these types of projects...
 
Drones could do things like cargo transport, ISR, and even strike missions, in our current threat environment. I don't see them winning dogfights very soon, and I'm not sure about complicated threat environments.

How do things fly?
The answer is not "by generating lift." It's "MONEY, AND LOTS OF IT!"
I don't see us spending tens of billions to upgrade from 9G+ amazing fighters to drones with even equal capability (which is probably beyond our capabilities, at the current time). Why replace a fleet of helos with another fleet that does the same thing, if the current one can still do the job?
...basically, why spend money when you don't get better results?
 
I will be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about flying any aircraft…..Let me reprase that….I know nothing about ANY Aircraft.

But I do know what it is like to fly in more than a few under duress need their assistance at a moment’s notice, and what it is like to survive a crash and I can tell you this.

I want that dustoff to have a human at the controls who is physically present and not “Miles away”.

I want to be able to speak to that CAS aircraft and know that there is a person in that cockpit…There is a “Feel” for the battle that someone who is there just understands. I have yet to have that from a drone operator.

Oh and when that helo I am riding in decides it needs to “fall out of the sky”…I want to know that the pilot who is up front has just as much “skin in the game” as I do.

Anyways, that is my take on this….from an old Grunt….for whatever that is worth.

I was discussing this thread with an old friend today. You took the words right out of our mouths.

Couldn't agree with you more.
 
Does anyone know what happens when we lose an unmanned aircraft?

No Injuries! :biggrin:

"A $53.5 million, unmanned Air Force drone crashed at a remote location in Nevada during a nighttime training exercise, but there were no injuries, authorities said."

Stealth_81
 
Scout, are you referring to the Iran incident?

No.

One of the great myths of UAVs is that they keep people out of danger. Yet when one goes down, what's the first thing we do? Send someone to find and retrieve it to protect our technology.
 
No.

One of the great myths of UAVs is that they keep people out of danger. Yet when one goes down, what's the first thing we do? Send someone to find and retrieve it to protect our technology.

Unlike tail sections of manned super secret helos? :confused:
 
No.

One of the great myths of UAVs is that they keep people out of danger. Yet when one goes down, what's the first thing we do? Send someone to find and retrieve it to protect our technology.

...as someone who spent 4 hours looking for a Raven in an Iraqi train yard, I can attest to this. It took half a scout platoon out of the fight for that whole period. Never did find it.
 
...as someone who spent 4 hours looking for a Raven in an Iraqi train yard, I can attest to this. It took half a scout platoon out of the fight for that whole period. Never did find it.

I should have a merit badge for finding downed UAVs and vectoring platoons to them. Lame.
 
Back to the article at the beginning of the thread...

I disagree that drones are what killed the Air Force's "Top Gun" culture. It was the reflective belts and blues mondays. No way Mav and Iceman would have been seen around the vollyball court in a disco belt!
 
An interesting quote that I found from Gen William Dupuy when he took over Tradoc in 1979 seems appropriate to this thread. It's all very well to Crystal Ball things but frankly it's pretty naive to put too much credence in pie in the sky visions of "future looks". They are interesting to discuss- ScoutPilot listed some very compelling reasons why a future composed entirely of UAVs isn't likely to come about anytime quickly. That's not to say that they won't become increasingly important for selected missions, but the past is littered with forecasts of what the future of war will look like and how we will be fighting , only to discover that it didn't actually work out that way.
When General William Dupuy took over TRADOC in 1979, he was convinced the Army spent too much time trying to divine the future.
…people aren’t smart enough to see what we’ll need in the year 2000. The reason we aren’t smart enough to do that is the people we ask in 1979, for instance, to look at the shape of the Army in the year 2000, possess a 1979 mentality. So, the Army they see out there is simply a reflection of the 1979 Army with some gimmicks. They’ll say “By then we’ll have more lasers, and we may have atomic energy, and we may have this, and we may have that.” But the concept is all based on a 1979 consciousness and information. I just don’t believe human beings can look to the long-range future that well, so I stopped most of the long range studies"...
 
Last edited:
Back
Top