F4 v F22 roc

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by 2018DAD, Nov 8, 2015.

  1. 2018DAD

    2018DAD Member

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    Have this in my head since the game yesterday: I was amazed at the rate of climb difference in the F4 and the F22 during the flyover. I know that the venerable ol F4 is about 55 years old..but since it was such a hot platform in its day..it was still hanging in on the climb after the burners were lit..BUT the performance of the F22 was in a completely different category. Would like to hear come comments concerning this from those that have been in each seat!
    Was cool to see them together, this is not meant as a criticism..just an observation..(I know the ol P51 would have looked dogged too..also hot in its day.) Did enjoy seeing the F4 flying, and would any time..as that is something you do not get to see everyday!!
     
  2. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Nothing you saw yesterday was "Typical" or "Atypical" of either plane. When they do flyovers, there are 2 things that need to be considered.

    1) They are putting on a show, so they want the planes to fly slow enough so you can see them. Trust me, if you ever had an F-22, F-16, F-15, F-4, etc. passing by at mach 1+ (717 mph), you would never forget it. At altitude, these planes, especially the F-15 which is the faster of the 3, will do around 1500 mph (Advertised). For what it's worth, the F-4, while a noisy SOB, has a top end speed pretty close to that of the F-22.

    2. Most importantly, when putting on a show, SAFETY is #!. As such, it is normal to have the planes safely fly away from each other after the pass over. Usually in pairs in different direction. Obviously, things like the Thunderbirds are a well trained performance.

    But at altitude, the F-4 and F-22 are pretty close to the same speed. (advertised). Don't get me wrong. The F-22 will go tropo (Vertical) in a heartbeat and leave the F-4 in the dust. The only other plane of ours to come close vertically, would be the F-15. Depending on the model, it could be close. The F-4 did it's job, which it had many of. Besides the USA, the F-4 was owned/flown by 11 other countries. With many variants. I personally, am very familiar with the Recon version I worked with at Bergstrom AFB (Austin Tx) back in the 1980's. But truly, you can't compare the 2 planes. Totally different.

    On a side note: I will always say that the F-15 is/was the greatest fighter/combo plane of them all. I'm not a fan of the F-35. (It can't beat the F-15 or F-16). But then again, dog fighting is a lost art, and the new F-35 is suppose to become a more "Practical" plane. (Whatever that means). There is only 1 problem with the F-22......... THE PRICE TAG. If not for that, it would be the plane of all planes. (Especially in a world of more technology and less dog fighting).
     
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  3. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Curiosity question.

    Where did they get the F4 pilots (it is a 2 seater, and I doubt they used a WSO as the GIB--- Guy/Gal in back? The 22 is obviously AD, but when it comes to the 4, are there any in the AF that are current for F4s?
    ~ Goes back to safety issues.

    I recall when the Strike replaced the 4. The transition was almost 25 years ago. The 4 and 111 were boneyarded at the same time. So, it begs my question. Think about it...it takes @2 years to go operational. That would mean they commissioned in 1989 at the latest, but probably 1987. I don't know if they had glass cockpits (non-analog/dials) which the 15, 15E and 16 have.
     
  4. 2018DAD

    2018DAD Member

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    Hey Mike (you da man)thanks. That is a pretty good job of answering what I was asking!
    I was familiar with similar top end and the grunt jobs the F4 was called to do. Didn't it have a nickname of ol'smokey or something like that?
    As far as separation I am familiar, but thought that when they hit the burners that even with a safety split ( 22 to the hills and the4s to the northeast) the ol gal would have shown a little better.
    I also wondered too about who in world would be current (both man and machine!)

    Thanks for the insight. Also, have same views on F35... Maybe making it so smart is not the best, lots of vulnerability in all that jazz..even without all the design bugs and software problems.
    Maybe everybody will just charge around in those fancy helmets!
    Take care!
     
  5. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Do us old people remember back in the 70's and 80's when "All in one" technologies were popular. E.g. Home stereos that had the tuner, turn table, cassette, etc. all in one. Later on, the TV's with built in VCR's or DVD's. These became popular by marketing. Not because they WERE better, but they are/were cheaper to build. But using marketing, you can make people believe it is better. The truth is, separate components will always have better quality. Not sharing the same power supplies, amps, filters, etc. create better quality.

    I'm not against the F-35. I simply do not believe that it should have been 'Dreamed of", of being able to do all things. Basically, trying to replace all other similar mission aircraft for every branch of the military with one plane; with numerous models. On paper, it sounds like it can be cheaper, but in reality, it isn't. And there's no way you can make the quality of the F-35 as high as it could be, if it was built for more specific capabilities. If you want to replace the F-16 and F-15 with it, due to changing missions and roles, then fine; do it. But the F-35 is trying to replace A-10, F-16, F-18, and a number of harriers. Sorry, but you simply can't make one plane do all that. Especially when the missions are so different. WHY has the A-10 been so successful? Not only because of it's armament, but also because the damn things was so slow. It could sneak up quietly. It wasn't called the tank killer for nothing.

    Don't get me wrong. The F-16 has multiple roles. So does the F-15 and numerous other aircraft. But the took an aircraft, designed with a specific mission; "Like being a fighter", and adapted other roles to it. The F-35 is trying to be designed with too many primary roles in mind. I'm not a fan of that. I think the F-35 has some great potential. A lot more if they weren't trying to make it an "All in One" stereo. The problem is, it can do a lot of things, but I don't think (In my opinion) that it can do any of the jobs BETTER than what it's replacing. E.g. It can't be an F-15 in anything. The F-16; while definitely not one of my favorite planes, is still better. As for a front line "Tank killer" replacement for the A-10???? Not a chance in hell. Gotta love politics.
     
  6. zachtx

    zachtx Member

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    The F-4s were flying from the 53d wing at Holloman AFB, NM. They were in town because the day before (Friday) a four ship flew a missing man formation over the Plaza of Heroes dedication ceremony at the AOG.

    From the USAF website: "They are apart of the 82d Aerial Targets Squadron, which operates approximately 50 full-scale QF-4 aircraft and 45 BQM-167 subscale targets to provide manned and unmanned aerial targets support for numerous USAF and DoD-directed programs. The squadron maintains three 120-foot drone recovery vessels and two smaller vessels to recover aerial targets and support range safety, patrol and salvage operations. Squadron members also operate the Air Force's only two E-9A airborne platform/telemetry relay aircraft that provide ocean surface surveillance and relay missile/target telemetry of missiles fired in over-the horizon profiles on the Gulf Range.
    Detachment 1, 82nd ATS, operates QF-4 full-scale aerial targets for use at the White Sands Missile Range. The squadron manages all contract operations of its QF-4 fleet as part of the overall O&M contract at Tyndall, AFB. It directs USAF operations of full-scale targets in support of DoD testing programs to include the US Army's Patriot system."
     
  7. 2018DAD

    2018DAD Member

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    Thanks Zach!

    I had thought that the F4s might have been part of a training/targeting operation somewhere. That also explains the "fly-over on Friday that my cadet mentioned. The Sijan memorial was very moving, we went by after the ceremony. Had a great visit with a '65er and a 70 grad. That SEA memorial is a hidden gem on base. I think I could spend all day there!
     
  8. Wishful

    Wishful Parent

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    I plan to visit the SEA Memorial on my next visit; sorry I missed it last time.
     
  9. F15DOC

    F15DOC Member

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    Christcorp: "On a side note: I will always say that the F-15 is/was the greatest fighter/combo plane of them all."
    How could I ever disagree with you on that one!!
    But I would say that dogfighting is not a lost art in our squadron, practice BFM all the time and our bros are amazing at putting the pipper across an adversaries canopy, nothing like that thrill.
    On the other note, you are right that it's a lost art, in the case of the F22 which will schwack us from afar and we won't even know they were there... cowards... :)
    Oh and this is my favorite quote from a drone F4 pilot, "Those damn eagle drivers wouldn't be so cocky if I could shoot back at 'em!!" LOL, loved it, what a keeper quote!
     
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  10. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Amen doc. The 15 will always be my plane. I can't say enough about it. And my point with the 35 is that they can try and make it a good all in one plane, but I don't think it will ever be better than the 15, and what the 15 is best at. Or the 16 or 18 at what it is best at. And never better than an a-10 at what it is best at.
     
  11. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    Loved my Eagle...but would give a lot for a BFM ride IN a Raptor!!

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     

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