Fighting against ROTC's return

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by raimius, Dec 30, 2010.

  1. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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  2. bruno

    bruno Retired Staff Member

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    Colman McCarthy's point of view has always been pretty far to the left of the majority of even very liberal politicians and he is a dedicated pacifist, so this column should not be too surprising and it's not representative of much a segment of the population anywhere (He's a very principled and consistent writer- but he doesn't live in the real world and he is just flat wrong.) However, the Ivy League schools (Harvard/Yale/Columbia/Penn/Dartmouth/Princeton/Brown) are pretty liberal places- especially Harvard, Yale ,Columbia and Brown, & I don't believe that there is going to be much support in the faculty Senate meetings for returning ROTC to campus. IMO while the motivation behind the opposition will be political, the granting of academic credits for ROTC courses will be the ostensible issue. They will grant credits for the impact of Janice Joplin on Western Culture but giving credits for ROTC will stick in their craw. I could be wrong, but living in Massachusetts gives you a pretty good appreciation for Cambridge and Harvard thinking.
    time will tell
     
  3. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    They will never be thrilled about allowing them to return on campus.

    Here's why I chuckle at this issue. The majority who want DADT repealed would be also politically tilted to the liberal side, and believe overall that govt should be in every facet of our lives. Well, now the govt is going to be in another part of their lives because if they repeal DADT and do not allow ROTC on campus, they lose federal funding. The govt is going to force them to accept the military.

    The sword swings both ways. As my Mom always said to me, be careful when you force someone's hand, because you might be forced to accept something you never wanted.
     
  4. sprog

    sprog Member

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    I'll preface by stating that this is only my opinion, and that I have no facts to back me up:

    I think that some of the faculty opposition comes from the fact that ROTC instructors are given the title of "Professor" (or Assistant Professor, etc.) without doctorate-level degrees. They certainly were at VMI, and the heads of the Army, Air Force, and Navy departments (all active duty O-6s) were given equal status with the heads of the English, Electrical Engineering, and Economics departments (and so on). The Ivory Tower crowd in Academia puts such an emphasis on doctoral qualifications, that they don't like sharing a professional title with an active duty officer who didn't write a dissertation on the impact of Scooby Doo in post-modern Native American art communities.

    It's an ego thing. At least partially.
     
  5. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I would be LMAO right now with this comment, but sadly I bet there is someone out there that did write a dissertation on a subject like this...maybe not Scoobt Doo, but at least Fred Flintstone and is now teaching the next generation at a university somewhere.
     
  6. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    How ironic that a man such as Coleman McCarthy, who so scornfully disdains the American military that gave him his liberal freedoms, would have been summarily executed as an "elitist intellectual" by each and every one of the enemies fought by said American military over the last 100 years.
     
  7. sprog

    sprog Member

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    I meant the comment as a humorous jab at our college professor friends. :biggrin: There are plenty of noble PhD dissertations which do add something to the knowledge base.

    Much like I must suffer with endless streams of unfunny (and sometimes funny and disturbingly accurate) lawyer jokes, it is only fair that our professor friends take a ding every now and then. :yllol:
     
  8. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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    Coleman McCarthy's article does come across as blatantly pacifist and a bit authoritarian (an interesting comination, IMO). It makes sense that he wouldn't want ROTC, but interesting that he advocates not allowing the choice.
     
  9. AcademyFriend1

    AcademyFriend1 Member

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    Pima, I don't think any school will be faced with the dilemma you describe. First, as the embedded Washington Times article suggests, it is far from clear if DoD wants to expand the host campuses. Secondly, I don't believe the Solomon Amendment, which is the law at issue, has been interpreted as requiring schools ton host a detachment, offer course credit, etc. instead, they've had to give student info to recruiters andvallow recruiters on campus.
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    That's the problem. These schools don't even want them on campus, and that includes recruiters. The issue is bigger than just having a det or a BN, it is about it becoming open to the services. Currently, that is not the case.

    I highly doubt Yale, Harvard or Berkeley will get a det anytime soon, but now, recruiters are allowed to recruit from them...Colleges have job fairs every fall and spring on campus for graduating students. They were not allowed before to attend these things. Now they can.

    Do I believe they will get anybody? No, but it will be a thorn in their side.

    Additionallly, a couple of yrs ago at Columbia there was a huge issue, because these students must attend another school for ROTC, and Columbia refused to allow them to form a ROTC social organization on campus. This means they now have to allow that to occur.

    This is more of a thorn in their side than anything else. It will constantly be poking at them and they can't do anything about it.
     
  11. AcademyFriend1

    AcademyFriend1 Member

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    Recruiters have already had access to campus even before Repeal of DADT; the Solomon Amendment was upheld by the Supreme Court several years ago. The "holdouts" on not allowing recruiters to job fairs were generally the law schools, bc unlike the undergrad colleges, or grad schools like med or engineering schools, law schools didn't get federal money. The Solomon Amendment was amended to make it clear that if any branch of a university barred recruiters, the whole school lost federal funding. Several law schools challenged in court and lost, so recruiters have been allowed everywhere since then.

    Much of your point is still valid, though Pima--when faced with the loss of billions, the big research universities like Harvard backed down. It just happened some years ago, that's all. I continue to hope that the dialogue will continue and schools like the Ivies and Stanford will have on-campus detachment; I do think students would be interested in the opportunity under those circumstances. I took part in USMC PLC, but offered an on-campus ROTC option w/scholarship I'm sure I would have seriously explored it, as would other classmates.
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I agree with your last statement. If you read the ROTC boards many cadets are torn between selecting one university over another. The reason why is their 1st choice will force them to go X town and they realize that is a PITA. Their 2nd choice is on campus and makes it easier for them to be active in ROTC.

    When you come to it nobody actually knows if the candidate matriculated to one college over another because the deciding factor was ROTC.

    Currently, they probably would not need a host det., but what if in 3 yrs from now the AF, Army or Navy decide they do want to do it, even with the smallest det/bn in the nation. Harvard, Yale, Berkeley can't stop them and again that is the price of giving an ultimatum. They got their repeal of DADT, but now they have to deal with fall out.

    I think if the military tried this out at first Columbia would be the place they will start with. Currently these cadets travel X town for every ROTC program. They can easily transfer one over to Columbia as host.

    Remember Columbia had no problem hosting I'M a Dinner Jacket (ahmadinejad) as a guest. This is also a school that boo'd, overturned chairs and tables because the founder of Minute Man, Jim Gilchrist was to speak there. Not hard to say how the community tilts at Columbia!
     
  13. sweettooth

    sweettooth Parent

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    I think you'd be surprised how normal and diverse the ivies are. Only the students and in many cases the faculty who feel strongly about a position tend to make the news. In my extended family those who attend ivies hold no different political views than the rest of the family, which is definitely not radical in any direction. We are all proud that they were lucky enough to get admitted to such fine schools. I think the military will get more officers from the ivies and other schools with the repeal of DADT.
     
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I think I would be surprised because most universities currently tilt left in their teachings.

    The thing to remember is that campuses have vibes, and even with the repeal of DADT, you should not equate that into an open arms relationship with the military.

    Again look at Columbia, they went ballistic over the Minute Man founder when he spoke, but not a problem with Ahmadinejad. I think they also throw stuff at Tom Tancredo.

    If that is the feel of the campus it will be hard for ROTC candidates to say "YES, I want to go to an IVY over another school, knowing that my college source will not impact my career for the next 5 yrs"
     
  15. jdalv2

    jdalv2 Member

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    It seems like McCarthy is pretty much in favor of allowing Taliban and Al Qaeda ROTC on campus.
     

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