Honor Violation?

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by nick0094, Sep 14, 2009.

  1. nick0094

    nick0094 Member

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    Even though I may not get in, I've been trying to live following the Academy's honor code since I discovered it a few years ago. I was wondering if this scenario would be considered "cheating".

    There was a chinese test today, and I didn't study because I didn't have enough time, and I put that last on my list because in the past, those tests have been the easiest for me. I tried to take the test, but I didn't have enough time. The teacher told me to come in tomorrow to take it. Do you go home and study for what you don't know or do you not study, knowing you'll fail if you don't? I think I shouldn't study, due to the fact that I can only blame myself for this and learn my lesson. What do you think I should do?
     
  2. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    To not study is silly. The teacher is offering you her/his trust. If they didn't trust you to do your best, they would have made you take the test today as scheduled; and let you fail if you did. You're trying to rationalize the situation. Don't. If you don't study, then you have wasted your teacher's time and shown her/him disrespect.

    And for what it's worth, saying you didn't have enough time to study, is also rationalization. If you truly want to be a cadet, then learn to be responsible. That means for all your actions. And if it means you get an hour less of sleep because you need to study, then that's what you do. If it means getting up at 4am instead of 6am so you can study, then that's what you do. Sorry if I sound harsh, but stop making excuses. Your schedule is no different or more difficult that hundreds, thousands, or millions of other students in the country every day. Tough it out. You are in control of your life. No excuses. "Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way". best of luck to you. Mike.....
     
  3. CadCandMateus

    CadCandMateus Recent Grad

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    Did your teacher tell you not to study? lol... study and really read what Christcorp told you.
     
  4. nick0094

    nick0094 Member

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    No, she just said come in and finish it tomorrow
     
  5. nick0094

    nick0094 Member

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    So basically you're saying it's not cheating if I study? And I know this is going to sound like another excuse, but it's something I can't exactly control. My mom insists that I HAVE to go to bed when she does on school nights, now, with practice, CAP, AND homework, I probably wouldn't get to sleep until Midnight-1AM, but she won't let me stay up to finish my work. I wouldn't MIND staying up later ( I wouldn't do it on purpose, but I wouldn't cry about it either). It's just it takes a while to do all this work, and I dont think she understands that, or it could be another reason. What do I do?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
  6. kp2001

    kp2001 USMMA Alumnus

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    The test should be this for you:

    1) I can look myself in the mirror after I complete the test and tell myself that "I did not cheat on this test"

    and

    2)Usually if you are asking if it is cheating, it usually is.

    Remember cheating doesn't just include using crib sheets, etc....it also includes "gaining an unfair advantage" over those who are also taking the test.

    You are in a not-so-easy to answer scenario. If you can answer #1, then you will be fine either way.
     
  7. nick0094

    nick0094 Member

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    Now I fell where I started, CC thinks if I DON'T study, then it would be an insult to my teacher, on the other hand, if I DO study, then it would be giving me an unfair advantage, although not really because I think some of the other kids cheat too( I'm still working on the, "...nor tolerate among us anyone who does" part). By the way, what can I do about that? I'm still in high school and the teachers can't punish the kids unless they catch them cheating themselves. So, even if I say something, noone will believe me because most of the proof is digital (answers on iPods and phones), and can be deleted before I would finish the sentence.
     
  8. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Your mom might make you go to bed at a certain time; but as a parent, I can almost guaran-damm-ty you that she wouldn't say one negative thing if you woke up and hour or so early in the morning and did your studying then. Sorry, but yes, it sounds like an excuse. The teacher expects you to study. S/He isn't expecting you to go into a coma for 24 hours and pick up where you left off. You're looking for excuses. Sorry, but I'm not buying it. You asked for our opinion; well you got mine. Now; get off the damn computer and go study. Why are you sitting here typing????????????
     
  9. homewith4

    homewith4 Member

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    this post was made on Monday...so the test was on Monday, and your excuse is "my mom makes me go to bed on school nights...".

    Generally speaking, NEEDING to study the night before a test is an indication of "cramming". IMO, If you have been keeping up in class and working on the material all along, the night before the test study session is a review, not a pass/fail scenario. Maybe the difference between an A and a B...

    I agree w/ CC on this one, studying for this test is fine. The teacher knows that in the real world, schedule conflicts happen and employees (in this case, students) that give 110% are offered more opportunites to fix issues than those who walk in the door 1 minute before a shift starts, take an extra long lunch and then miss a deadline. The is no point in the teacher extending your deadline if you don't study.

    CC, good point about forum time. my son doesn't post here, I do. He's too busy to do forums, IM and FB. I condense what I learn from my reading and brief him over breakfast
     
  10. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Nick, IMHO- unless your teacher specifically told you NOT to study or look at information then you are free to do so. You also could have clarified this with your teacher.

    Please don't overthink the honor code just yet. When you get to the AFA (and for those at other Academies) you will be fully instructed on the honor code, what it means and how it applies.
    That said - it isn't always black and white. There is some gray which is why Academies have honor boards.
     
  11. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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    If you can clarify the teacher's expectations, that would be the best option. Cut and dry is generally easier!

    If not, go by Flieger's test.
     
  12. PDub

    PDub Prospective

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    that's probably the best thing to do. be honest with the teacher and clearify if studying is ok, whether if you looked ahead to see what the problems are, etc.
    but if don't ask, it does seem like an unfair advantage of having an extra day to study over your classmates.
     
  13. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    If you teacher says you can take the test tomorrow instead of today; for whatever the reason; how can you possibly feel that it is unfair to anyone else if you study that extra night? There is absolutely no logic to that at all.

    Scenario: Test on Chapter 5; Tuesday at 10:30am (3rd period class). The night before, you cram for the test, just like 99% of all the other students. The next morning, you wake up and are blowing chunks. You're too sick and you call into the school and stay home. 12 hours later; around dinner time; you're able to hold food down. You're feeling better. The teacher has a policy that if you miss the test, you can make it up the first day back during your lunch hour. So, you're saying that now that you're feeling better; after dinner you shouldn't study any more. Because that wouldn't be "FAIR" to the other students??? That is ridiculous. Is it fair that traditional cramming will only allow approximately a 40% retention factor 24 hours later, which means that the cramming you did the night before for the test you missed today, has become 60% less effective tomorrow when you go to take the test?

    The same situations can happen for the student who misses the biology test at 1:30pm because s/he is on the swim team and they all left at 1pm on a bus for a swim meet at another school. They rescheduled with their teacher to take the test tomorrow. Does that kid NOT study tonight, or on the 3 hour bus ride, because it isn't "FAIR" to the rest of the classmates.

    Ladies and gentlemen; come into the "REAL WORLD" PLEASE!!!! 1st; there is no such thing as "FAIR". Unless you live in a communist country where individual talents aren't rewarded, there will always be someone who is faster, taller, smarter, better speaker, photographic memory, doesn't need to study, etc... 2nd; what goes around comes around. So, you had an extra day to study; so what. Maybe next test a different kid couldn't make it to the test and had to reschedule for the next day. If you want to play the "FAIR" game, then why even give grades? Why not just give every student a "B" if they show up and participate. That would be "FAIR". Maybe the kid who has math/science/etc... come to them so easily and quickly, SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED to study before a test. That gives him/her a bigger advantage over the other kids.

    The truth is: The teacher is the adult. The teacher is the authority. The teacher makes the rules. That isn't your job to question or second guess them. (Not unless there's a safety, legal, or similar issue involved). If the teacher allows a student to finish a test a day later, then so be it. If s/he didn't expect you to do more studying or whatever, they would have had you finish the test right then and there. As long as the teacher treats all their students with the same rules, then it's fair.

    You all are THINKING this "HONOR CODE" stuff WAY TOO DEEP. Each person in the world is different and unique. Each student in the world is different and unique. Each person needs a slightly different method of learning. Is it fair that some student stay after class for "Tutoring" or "Additional Help". What is the OBJECTIVE OF SCHOOL/EDUCATION???? Is it to "Rate" and "Grade" the students; to create a hierarchy in which to establish "STATUS"? NO!!!! It's to TEACH the students certain facts, procedures, methods, policies, etc... that they can implement in their lives so they can be MORE PRODUCTIVE for society. If the teacher sets the rules, policy, or procedures, then it's not wrong or unethical if you follow them. It's only wrong or unethical if you CREATE your own set of rules or procedures that the other students are not privy to or allowed to benefit from. GOD!!!! I never thought such an INSIGNIFICANT topic could fire me up so much..... Peace out; I'm out of here................................ arggggggggggggggggggggggggg
     
  14. singaporemom

    singaporemom Member

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    You should be thrilled you have a teacher that will let you finish a test the next day! She wants you to do well...If she didn't specify, then study a bit.

    Here is a better example of honor:

    My son took the SAT earlier this year and during the Math section there were bubble fill ins and also actual blanks to write in the answers for some questions. One of the fill in the blanks bothered him and he put an answer down that he didn't like. As he walked out of the room he remembered how to do the problem...of course! When he went back in after the break he simply went on to the next section of the test and didn't think about it any more. After the test he told his friend about the one math problem. His friend couldn't believe that my son didn't go back and change the answer. Son's response to that was "That would be cheating." Friend's response was "Everyone cheats, you just put yourself at a disadvantage by not changing that answer."

    When son got his SAT scores and his math score had only One answer incorrect he felt fantastic about it! He said that an 800 on math using his friends method would have been horrible.
     
  15. America's Finest

    America's Finest USMA Cadet

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    That is a tough one. I would classify it as cheating if everyone else was not told they could have an extra day for the assignment because it would provide an unfair advantage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2009
  16. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Now that I've cooled down; my question to this statement quoted is:

    "Isn't it the responsibility of the teacher to determine right/wrong/up/down/etc... So, you're basically saying that the teacher PURPOSELY cheated by offering the student the option to finish the test the next day?

    Or how about when the police officer lets you off with a "Warning"? Do you say: "No thank you sir; I know you haven't given EVERY person a warning, so I shouldn't get a warning either". Sorry, but there are some people that just don't understand the purpose of life some times. Is the purpose of the police officer, to generate income for the city? No. It's to ensure a safe protective community for it's citizens. Part of that is to enforce laws. But part of that is also to promote a change of behavior towards the REASON for the law. And if s/he can feels on this particular instance that they can promote and encourage such behavior with positive motivation such as leniency with a warning, instead of negative motivation such as giving out a ticket and points on a driving record; that his their prerogative.

    Your teachers, parents, military instructors, employers, etc... all have the prerogative to motivate, train, raise, instruct, etc... their students, employees, children, etc... the way that they see fit. That is why they are the authority figure; and you're NOT. None of my children, employees, students, etc... have I ever treated identical to another. However, there is a fine line between individual interaction and relationships; and showing favoritism. But in this thread, we're talking about an authority figure who made a decision. And for whatever reason, some feel that this teacher should NOT be allowed to have individual instruction with their students. That they aren't allowed to individually tailor the curriculum as they deem appropriate. And you're taking the meaning and purpose of the honor code way out of context. Almost to the point of self righteousness. We're not talking about someone who PURPOSELY played sick so they could have an extra day to study. Please, put things into perspective, and NOT what you WANT it to be.

    So many people get wrapped up in what they think is fair; that they dilute the purpose and meaning of the actions. That's why there are schools that WON'T allow the students in elementary school to "Keep Score" if playing a sport at recess. Because it isn't "FAIR" for a person/team to lose. Why some schools ensure that during award ceremonies, that somehow EVERY student is going to get called up on stage and receive SOMETHING. Because it isn't "FAIR" that some students are as good as others.

    Be it as it may; you all can carry on. I promise, from the bottom of my soul, that I won't reply to any further posts on this thread. Not unless someone asks me a specific question about something I wrote. I am not encouraging any questions. But I also don't want to take away from those who feel that there is merit to this thread. Best of luck everyone. Mike.....
     
  17. bsa07eagle

    bsa07eagle Member

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    Hi all,

    I probably shouldn't get involved in this, but isn't this whole thing over by now? This thread was posted a day or 2 ago, and by now you would have taken the test. I think this is just about over, you have taken the test and done what you have determined right (right?). This seems to be much less of a big deal than everyone has made it out to be. Your teacher gave you more time to take the test, and, in my opinion, that means feel free to study. I doubt what your teacher meant was: if you study at all you will be cheating, so just stare at your textbook all day and then come take the test. You (especially as a peer) will typically be able to tell pretty easily when something is cheating, lying, wrong, and it usually won't come from your teacher (I have learned that teachers catch on a lot faster than most people give them credit for). If you haven't taken the test yet, study hard and then go in there and give it your best shot, just like you would under normal circumstances.

    Later,

    Brian
     
  18. nick0094

    nick0094 Member

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    Thank you, and thanks to CC for giving me the idea about getting up early, hopefully, I'll have to use it again later. For some reason, I felt better when I went to sleep at 12 and got up at 5 than when I go to sleep at 9 and get up at six. Anyway, I just got to retake the test today, even if I didn't add to it, I got an 83%, ( Which was kind of disappointing since thats the lowest grade I've gotten in Chinese since I started it....(I'm in honors Chinese II now)). Thanks for all the advice, but I think I'll try to figure the answers to these types of honor code questions myself for a while. Sorry for causing issues, if there were any.
     
  19. America's Finest

    America's Finest USMA Cadet

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    I never said the teacher did it willingly. In fact the honor code is often violated without meaning to.

    The teacher is the authority figure and I am not? Would you follow an order that violated the honor code simply because you were ordered to and claim that it is okay because of that? I guess that excuse worked well for those tried at Nuremberg. Maybe they were right and it wasn't their fault for what they did as they were not the highest authority figure.

    The honor code is not meant to be enforced by "authority figures". We have been taught to police our own ranks. Honor is everyone's responsibility.

    And please stop with the unneeded comments such as your assumption that I am making the honor code what I want it to be. Sorry to tell you that you are not the ultimate authority in interpreting the code, so please don't say you know 100% of what it means and I am clearly wrong.

    As far as the student connection it is just not the same, all students have a chance to earn awards. And for the police comment, nobody is even talking about revenue or the purpose of the laws. The honor code isn't made to let some people break it. I am sure most who do break it would not repeat the offense again once they are caught but they are still punished, taking responsibility for your actions is important such as in this case (not studying has consequences of which everyone is aware of).
     
  20. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Back to the original post - none of us here know the whole story. We only know what Nick wrote. We don't know the individual teacher's policies toward grades nor necessarily Nick circumstances.
    Perhaps the teacher has a policy that is available to all students where she allows a retake; perhaps there were extenuating circumstances that prevented Nick from preparing - maybe he has an overloaded courseload and must work on weekends to help his mom buy groceries (I am making that up but you get the point).
    All students have the opportunity to take their situation to the teacher.
    This is not cheating. It is not cheating the teacher nor classmates.

    As long as the teacher treats all students in the same manner there is no cheating nor any ethics violation. If, for instance, the teacher's policy was that only those with green eyes could retake a test - that would be unethical on the teacher's part. If the students knew of this policy, they should be bound to expose the teacher.
    I don't see anything shady in Nick's case at all, I think he can sleep at night.

    Don't overblow this more than it needs to be. It's not about war crimes or following orders.

    This is off topic but:
    Do you really believe this?
     

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