HS Class Rank

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by jbsail, Jun 2, 2013.

  1. jbsail

    jbsail Member

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    Wonder if any of academies have blown up valedictorian numbers when releasing class stats (not realizing the specific school's system):

    http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/02/18660734-were-all-no-1-is-21-valedictorians-too-many?lite


    Ha, the principal is a real genius (not). The school board should rethink his employment and serious look into all the teachers for class work and test management. Cum, Magna and Summa Cum Laude are for honors. val and salut mean 1 and 2.
     
  2. nuensis

    nuensis USNA 2016

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    Ah, the trophy generation. I hope none of this goes to their heads.

    Some of the "best and brightest" in high school find themselves hitting the brick wall once in the big leagues. They learn that "valedictorian" was just a title, and the high school laurels are gone.

    Honestly, with the grade inflation present in many public high schools these days, none of it means very much.
     
  3. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    The academy simply posts what the high school claims on the individual's class ranking. If they have 10 people listed as #1 and the academy applicant is one of those, then the academy sees them as the valedictorian. They don't know about the other 9 from that school. If a high school has no ethics, the academy can't worry about that.

    Nuensis. You are correct. It has become a trophy generation. There was also the "Me" generation; the 'Yuppy" generation; and others. But this isn't new today. For quite a few years, schools won't let kids in elementary school recess, who are "playing" a game, "Keep Score". They don't want those fragile little esteems to be shattered because they actually lost at something. The schools probably mean well, in their liberal ways; but they do a disservice to our children. That's why it's important that parents do their job in raising the kids. Teach them that in some things, on some days, they will be better than others at something. And in some things, on some days, they WON'T be better than others. That they might not get accepted to the college they want. Or get hired/promoted in the job they want.

    Also, as parents we have to really stress on our school age children that "Just because the teacher said so, DOESN'T MEAN S/He is RIGHT". That was the hardest thing to teach my kids. They understand it today. Doesn't mean to be rude or disrespectful to the teacher. And for testing purposes, you give them the answer they are looking for. But just like in real life, it doesn't mean because they are the "Authority Figure" that they are right.

    My high school that I graduated from was pretty common sense when it came to valedictorian and such. 1) Highest GPA. if tied - 2) Person who took "College Prep" classes". (Similar to AP/IB/Honor classes vs state minimum requirements); if STILL TIED - 3) Student involved with student government and/or clubs. if STILL TIED - 4) Student involved with Varsity Sports. If STILL TIED - 5) Person with the MOST of all the criteria selected. It never got past this point.

    Point is, a tie - 2 valedictorian is acceptable. You simply DON'T HAVE a Salutatorian that year. But beyond that; it's totally ridiculous. It is possible to have multiple students finish their senior year with identical GPA's. Especially in specialized/private schools where there's a higher ratio of outstanding students. But once you add in the "WHOLE PERSON CONCEPT" that the academies and most colleges look at; it's obvious that you don't have 20 identical students. Just like the academy and many universities have rejected the 4.0gpa/35-36ACT applicant because that's all they had; high schools should reserve the #1 and #2 slot in their graduating class for the true #1 student. That's the individual with the highest GPA, but ALSO with the most involvement in the school.
     
  4. osdad

    osdad Member

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    From the MIT Website:

    Said another way: We can't have the poor darlings crying home to daddy when they get their first grade lower than a A. :shake:
     
  5. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    There are a few schools in our area that have boasted several Valedictorians, most of these schools have some very creative grading systems as well. One school close to us, different district, does not give grades below a C-, if the student is failing they will get a No Pass, and try and take the class again, the grade does not become part of their GPA. The school does not have a +- system and they have lowered the minimum for an A to 87%. As you can probably tell the GPA's tend to run high at this school and they have a lot of 4.0 students.

    A friend that teaches at the school hates the current system, he also said that graduating students get a rude awakening when they apply for colleges. The Flagship University in our state knows the grading systems and takes it into account, there are quite a few 3.8 to 4.0 students from this school that are not admitted, comes as quite a shock to them and their parents, they just don't seem to understand how the schools grading system has hurt their kids chances. Kids with a 3.6 from my son's old high school would be admitted while those from the other district with 4.0's would not. There is a push now to change the current system for obvious reasons.

    At least many colleges are now taking these New Age grading systems into account when going through the admissions process.
     
  6. pathnottaken

    pathnottaken Member

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    Actually the MIT grading system had more to do with reducing sucides and drop-out and less too do with making the kids feel good about themselves.

    many kids who go to MIT are highly competitive and lose it when they are no longer the best.

    The other issue thing to think about is how do you make the tie breaker...is sports more important than working nights to support your family? Is the right ethinicity the tie breaker? Or is it who you/your family knows? Maybe it the level of classes you take AP vs. standard so that only STEM kids need apply, art majors need not apply?
     
  7. pathnottaken

    pathnottaken Member

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    Ain't anything new here, grade inflation by schools have been going on for ever. Lets take a look some of the best college prep schools where they have a mnaditory SAT prep class every day from freshmen year on. Studies have shown that these student get an average of 100 points higher than predict by other intellegence indicators. Does that mean these kids are going to make better students, NO. The prep school boast on their higher grades thus getting more people to send their kids there. Making more money for them.

    University have a hard time at finding the right kids (ones who are going to succede at their school) School grades, SAT scores, essays all help, but is not prefect. Some colleges are rumored to inflate the grades of their kids so that they look better and can charge more....
     
  8. nigel

    nigel Member

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    Going to the other extreme... My DD attends a highly competitive, top-ranked high school. They absolutely do not rank the class and refuse to have a Val or Sal. The counselor said it just got to be a huge headache having to deal with freaked-out, ambitious parents.

    All students are welcome to enter an essay contest, where the winning entry is the speaker at commencement.

    Nicole
     
  9. pathnottaken

    pathnottaken Member

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    Hopefully the judging is out sourced to India, I have seen those parents and would not want to be a judge within a 1000 miles of them :shake:
     
  10. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    why do i not have any sympathy for these students? the truth is; it's mainly the parent's fault. Many parents aren't involved much with their kid's education. And those who are, many times are more interested in their ego. "Ooooo, little Johnny got a 4.0gpa". "Ooooo, little Mary is on the Honor Roll". Forget the fact that little Johnny and Mary can't do basic fractions or percentages. But they got their "A" so mom/dad can brag about them to their friends.

    The real problem is the stress put on the kids because some idiot published a paper some place that said today's "Bachelor Degree" is yesterday's "High School Diploma". In other words, you MUST go to college or you CAN'T be successful and get a good job. That's the biggest crock of b.s. ever stated. There are a lot of job that don't require a college degree, or at most an Associate's degree or a technical school; and these individuals are making a lot more money than most college grads. When I worked for the phone company, you didn't need a college degree to be a technician. They had apprentice programs or you could get some experience in a number of other ways. And the average tech was making $80,000 per year. Not a bad paycheck.

    I know this is an academy/rotc forum, but please stop believing that you MUST go to college in order to be successful. YOU DON'T!!! Matter of fact, probably 50% of most college students would do better financially not going to college. College traps you into narrowing the jobs you apply to, plus many graduate OWING money for the education that they can't get a job with.
     
  11. QA1517

    QA1517 Member

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    On the subject of grade inflation or class ranking, what about varsity sports lettering. I know there are some schools, especially smaller ones, where if you go out for the team and dress out for the varsity squad you LETTER, even if you don't play in a game.

    But yet the academies stress the importance of varsity athletics.

    When I was in school you had to play a certain percentage in order to get your letter.
     
  12. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Most schools i've encountered do require certain prerequisites in order to receive a letter. But as for the academy, they actually aren't that stupid. Just like most colleges, they can tell when an individual has been involved with a sport for 1-2 years simply to pad their college resume/application; and those who have been doing sports for quite a while. Most ALO's are also very involved with their candidates. If we think the individual is really good at sports, we'll encourage them to contact the coach at the academy. "We'll contact them too". During our interviews, when I see an individual "Lettered" in a sport, I ask them about it. What sport, how long they've played, etc.... The same way I ask similar questions to those who received letters for academics, band, theater, and the many other things that various schools give letters for. Part of an ALO's interview and getting to know the applicants/candidates is whether or not they are B.S.ing in their application.
     
  13. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Couldn't agree with you more.

    My brother in law is the director of the regional Work Source here and echos your exact statement.

    To be honest, for both my sons part of the focus on college was there desire to become Army Officers and the need for a degree to do so.

    Prior to deciding on college we had explored various options which also included Trade Schools. For some of their friends these Trade Schools have resulted in very well paying jobs and the beginning of excellent careers.

    My son's high school paid great lip service to the many options of Trade Schools and apprentice work when they had their orientation. It became clear as school went along that the big push was college prep, cancelling programs like construction, auto shop cut backs, and others did not help either.
     
  14. Full Metal Bulldog

    Full Metal Bulldog Citadel Class of 2016

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    There's also the new stigma targeting Liberal Arts majors (English, History, etc. ) as the "easy way out" and placing STEM majors on a pedestal, automatically suggesting they are brighter and better students, guaranteed to have more exciting futures and better jobs.
     
  15. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    With you on this one as well.
     
  16. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    Welcome to Lake Woebegone HS! :yllol:
     
  17. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Jcleppe. I agree with you 100% too. But I do want to point out that my previous post wasn't an "Anti-College" post. I am all for college. "For the RIGHT PERSON". If I wasn't in favor of college, I wouldn't have 3 degrees myself. Both of my kids graduated college in 4 years. (None of this 5-6 year plan). Both graduated from college 100% Debt Free. My son received a scholarship after graduating from the air force academy and is currently working on getting his PhD. Both of my kids received numerous scholarships and/or work programs to make college cost basically ZERO. I've helped a lot of kids go to college. Many to the academies. Some ROTC. Some enlisted. Some to community colleges; and some to trade schools.

    Again, I am totally in favor of college for the right people. And there's almost no reason in the world that after 4 years of college, your debt "IF ANY" should be more than that of a car loan. E.g. LESS than $25,000. If you owe more than that for college, then someone fed you a lot of B.S.
    **********************************************
    And while I understand what Full Metal Bulldog posted about Liberal Arts majors vs STEM majors; there is actually some truth to that. There are way too many individuals that WASTE their money going to college; not knowing what they want to be when they grow up, so some idiot rationalizes to them about getting a "GENERAL EDUCATION" Liberal Arts Degree. Don't get me wrong. If you have goals that are very specific, and most likely requires a master's degree or higher, or even law school or medical school, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with a liberal arts degree in English, History, Language, or even a specific general science like Chemistry. If you want to be a teacher, practice the arts, or specialize is a specific science then I am all for it. But many people are told that a Liberal Arts degree is a better degree because it's more "Well Rounded" of an education. But what's worse, is students who aren't sure what they want to major in, are told that a liberal arts degree is a better degree to get now; then they can concentrate later. "What a waste of money".

    These individuals would have done better going to a community college to get their GER classes out of the way; work part time; apprentice; intern; or even just take some time off to figure out what they want to do. THEN enrolling full time into college. Going to college; JUST TO GO; is a waste of time and definitely of money.
    *************************************

    So, I guess my position is that probably half the individuals enrolled in college probably have no business there. They are there because someone said they needed to go. They are wasting their time and money. They could have done better without college. And for those that do go/need college, many should have waited until they were ready. Until they knew what they wanted. Until they established goals. I didn't start college right out of high school, but like I said, I have 3 degrees. But for what it's worth, my HIGHEST PAYING JOB I've ever had, "Which I left because of family reasons", didn't require any type of college education. And that job paid in the 6 figures.
     
  18. jbsail

    jbsail Member

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    Agree with all of you too.


    Example in my life:

    Friend of older brother went to a boarding prep school in NE for last 3 yrs of HS. Started to become more of a jerk whenever he returned home :rolleyes:. Got accepted at an univ in the NE. By this point we weren't worthy to be around. Years later...he still hasn't graduated (dropped out of school) and is working in a school computer lab as a tech.

    Kid from same hs (local, with my bro) skips college he goes directly to a mechanic school (8 months or something I think) gets an awesome job (awesome company) and awesome pay. No debt. He also is a great bud to hang out with and snapchat :shake:.
     
  19. Full Metal Bulldog

    Full Metal Bulldog Citadel Class of 2016

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    Agree 100%

    Is now an appropriate time to discuss why certain military branches, even though they are technical, won't even look at certain candidates for their academy or ROTC program unless their pursuing a Tech degree?
     
  20. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    We can talk about this, but as for the academy, I would have to totally disagree with you. ROTC I've heard concentrates on applicants who want to pursue a technical degree, but I've seen way too many applicants/appointees who go to the academies with no desire of having a technical degree. You don't even have to claim a major for the first year.

    Lets make this really simple. The air force academy, besides the engineering type majors that you'd expect, also off MAJORS in the following. Why would they even spend the time and money on offering MAJORS in non-technical fields like English, History, Behavioral Science, Economics, humanities, and many other non-technical, if all they cared about was individuals seeking a technical degree.

    For what it's worth; the Naval Academy and West Point offer an almost identical list of majors. Why offer the majors if the academies/branches of the military, doesn't want SOMEONE to major in them????

    Aeronautical Engineering
    Astronautical Engineering
    Basic Sciences
    Behavioral Sciences
    Biology
    Chemistry
    Civil Engineering
    Computer Engineering
    Computer Science
    Economics
    Electrical Engineering
    English
    Environmental Engineering
    Foreign Area Studies
    General Engineering
    Geospatial Science
    History
    Humanities
    Legal Studies
    Management
    Mathematics
    Mechanical Engineering
    Meteorology
    Military & Strategic Studies
    Operations Research
    Philosophy
    Physics
    Political Science
    Social Sciences
    Space Operations
    Systems Engineering
     

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