When we visited USAFA in January, an admissions counselor told us that they do adjustments based on the % of the class that goes to college. Don't hold me to these exact numbers, but it was something like this: if your school has > 95% of graduates attending college, then GPAs are adjusted so the max is no longer 4.0, but 4.2. So a students 3.8 now becomes a 4.0 to USAFA.
Importance of school profile?
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Pima
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jro,
Our GC told us that when DS went through the process. She stated it was not only the % of 4 yr. compared to 2 yr to enter work force upon hs graduation, but also it was broken down to % of top tier colleges compared to middle of the road colleges.
Which I guess why it explained his cgpa went up because at their school the top 15-20% went to either Ivies or Top Tier like UNCCH/UVA/Notre Dame. Which also dovetails into why rank is in the process. A candidate that is top 10% and 20% of the class go to Ivies, looks stronger, gives less concern of grade inflation, compared to a candidate that is top 20% and only 10% go Ivy.
Our GC told us that when DS went through the process. She stated it was not only the % of 4 yr. compared to 2 yr to enter work force upon hs graduation, but also it was broken down to % of top tier colleges compared to middle of the road colleges.
Which I guess why it explained his cgpa went up because at their school the top 15-20% went to either Ivies or Top Tier like UNCCH/UVA/Notre Dame. Which also dovetails into why rank is in the process. A candidate that is top 10% and 20% of the class go to Ivies, looks stronger, gives less concern of grade inflation, compared to a candidate that is top 20% and only 10% go Ivy.
YorkieMom75
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A Little Confused
Thanks for sharing the info.
I'm not doubting you, but it doesn't seem fair to give students who go to schools with more college-bound seniors an advantage. My son goes to a small rural HS where I'm sure the % is less than 95% of students going to college. Many go to community college, technical schools, become fire fighters, or just start to work. Some students would go to college, but their parents can't afford it. This HS has gotten state honors for their math and English programs. My son has a 3.98 GPA and a 4.2 weighted GPA due to honors classes and college level classes, but there is no IB or AP, and no JROTC. I thought I also read that students who go to schools without opportunity are given some credit over students who go to affluent schools with every kind of academic and extracurricular program available. This seems to be counter to what you said. Maybe I'm the only one who is confused.
Also, was the counselor referring to weighted or unweighted GPAs? It does say on the candidate's application page, that USAFA may adjust the candidates GPA. Maybe this is why.
It doesn't seem right that my DS may be at a disadvantage because of what other students from other families decide to do.
Thanks for sharing the info.
I'm not doubting you, but it doesn't seem fair to give students who go to schools with more college-bound seniors an advantage. My son goes to a small rural HS where I'm sure the % is less than 95% of students going to college. Many go to community college, technical schools, become fire fighters, or just start to work. Some students would go to college, but their parents can't afford it. This HS has gotten state honors for their math and English programs. My son has a 3.98 GPA and a 4.2 weighted GPA due to honors classes and college level classes, but there is no IB or AP, and no JROTC. I thought I also read that students who go to schools without opportunity are given some credit over students who go to affluent schools with every kind of academic and extracurricular program available. This seems to be counter to what you said. Maybe I'm the only one who is confused.
Also, was the counselor referring to weighted or unweighted GPAs? It does say on the candidate's application page, that USAFA may adjust the candidates GPA. Maybe this is why.
It doesn't seem right that my DS may be at a disadvantage because of what other students from other families decide to do.
Pima
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He would not be discriminated because the way the profile works is they also look at the candidates rigor of academics.
He can't get dinged if he had no opportunity to take the AP/IB/AICE program. The school profile will make it quite clear to the AFA that doesn't exist.
They also understand that there are many rural schools in the nation. This goes back to my comment about the applicant's school rank. If your school has only 5% go to 4 yr colleges and he is in the top 15% with a 3.98, the AFA will look at the profile regarding how they weight a cgpa.
For example, at our DD's school, PE was required for all 4 yrs., they actually remove that class in their weighting system, and that includes if you take a PE as an elective. They only require 3 yrs Foreign Language, so it is possible to take Weight Lifting as your elective and PE too.
The only courses that they weigh are what colleges typically use as their must have mins for acceptance. So it is just Math, Science, History, English and Foreign language. The same was true for our DS at his hs. Teen living did not go into the equation, it was an elective.
It appears your DS is also doing what is commonly referred to in this area as Jump Start. 1/2 day at HS, 1/2 day at the CC. At our HS their weighting for Jump Start believe it or not was lower than an AP. Strange, but true. Their position was kids could take basket weaving or Calc, and so they were going to just state 4.25(honors) was the highest weight compared to 4.5 for AP. I am sure part of this is also to discourage kids taking Jump Start over AP at the school.
Now because your school doesn't have AP's, AFA will look at him doing Jump Start as harder course rigor, and that is where he gets the edge to overcome the AP issue. This again is why they request a school profile and the candidates transcripts.
They want the candidate that pushed it academically while balancing outside activities.
You are also forgetting 1 big factor, the appointment system. All candidates compete against their slate at first. I would assume that for your child they are competing against the same level regarding rural communities for Cong. I get the Sen level, but also this profile now illustrates how he pushed his academic schedule when he had less opportunities compared to the private school in a wealthy suburb.
He can't get dinged if he had no opportunity to take the AP/IB/AICE program. The school profile will make it quite clear to the AFA that doesn't exist.
They also understand that there are many rural schools in the nation. This goes back to my comment about the applicant's school rank. If your school has only 5% go to 4 yr colleges and he is in the top 15% with a 3.98, the AFA will look at the profile regarding how they weight a cgpa.
For example, at our DD's school, PE was required for all 4 yrs., they actually remove that class in their weighting system, and that includes if you take a PE as an elective. They only require 3 yrs Foreign Language, so it is possible to take Weight Lifting as your elective and PE too.
The only courses that they weigh are what colleges typically use as their must have mins for acceptance. So it is just Math, Science, History, English and Foreign language. The same was true for our DS at his hs. Teen living did not go into the equation, it was an elective.
It appears your DS is also doing what is commonly referred to in this area as Jump Start. 1/2 day at HS, 1/2 day at the CC. At our HS their weighting for Jump Start believe it or not was lower than an AP. Strange, but true. Their position was kids could take basket weaving or Calc, and so they were going to just state 4.25(honors) was the highest weight compared to 4.5 for AP. I am sure part of this is also to discourage kids taking Jump Start over AP at the school.
Now because your school doesn't have AP's, AFA will look at him doing Jump Start as harder course rigor, and that is where he gets the edge to overcome the AP issue. This again is why they request a school profile and the candidates transcripts.
They want the candidate that pushed it academically while balancing outside activities.
You are also forgetting 1 big factor, the appointment system. All candidates compete against their slate at first. I would assume that for your child they are competing against the same level regarding rural communities for Cong. I get the Sen level, but also this profile now illustrates how he pushed his academic schedule when he had less opportunities compared to the private school in a wealthy suburb.
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YorkieMom75
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Thanks, Pima!
Thanks so much! All my son's honors and college-level classes are at his high school. But the classes are called College Chemistry or Calculus, etc. Students may get college credit if they want to, but there are fees, so we opted not to pay, and therefore didn't get official college credit. It's not called Jump Start, but the As he got in those classes are what weight his GPA higher.
Some schools In the area are smaller and more rural, but there are also more wealthy suburbs with large schools in our congressional district, as well as a HS near a military base, so competition for all noms was stiff, although no other seniors at his school applied to any of the service academies. My DS got nominations from all 3 MOCs, plus a Presidential nom (and we also sent in the paperwork for a VP nom just in case). Our MOCs did not select a Principal nom, just a list of 10 names each.
DS was in the TAG program from 3rd to 12th grade. Does that help him at all with his application to USAFA? It's probably noted on his transcript.
Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm starting to worry more now.
Thanks again!
Thanks so much! All my son's honors and college-level classes are at his high school. But the classes are called College Chemistry or Calculus, etc. Students may get college credit if they want to, but there are fees, so we opted not to pay, and therefore didn't get official college credit. It's not called Jump Start, but the As he got in those classes are what weight his GPA higher.
Some schools In the area are smaller and more rural, but there are also more wealthy suburbs with large schools in our congressional district, as well as a HS near a military base, so competition for all noms was stiff, although no other seniors at his school applied to any of the service academies. My DS got nominations from all 3 MOCs, plus a Presidential nom (and we also sent in the paperwork for a VP nom just in case). Our MOCs did not select a Principal nom, just a list of 10 names each.
DS was in the TAG program from 3rd to 12th grade. Does that help him at all with his application to USAFA? It's probably noted on his transcript.
Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm starting to worry more now.
Thanks again!
Christcorp
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A lot of good questions and concerns. One thing that keeps getting lost in the various discussions is that many are concentrating and emphasizing such a small part of the equation. e.g. Class Rank; posted Grade point average.
What about the home schooled who's "School Profile - Mom/Dad" doesn't show a percentage of how many went to college and what type? I understand the concerns that some have about making the scoring fair, but there are 2 things that really need to be emphasized.
1) It can NEVER be 100% fair, because schools, school districts, states, etc... are not standard. Therefor, you can't 100% compare all schools, classes, grades, etc... But the academies do a really good job getting close.
2) Each of these concerns being brought up such as class rank and gpa are just a piece of the puzzle. The academic section of your final score is made up of a lot of facets.
Without getting into details that I can't say, let me put it this way. An individual with a 3.98 can easily have a much higher "Academic Score" in their application than a person with a 4.00. What I mean is: Both individuals can go to the exact same school. One could be #3 ranked in their class; the other one ranked #16. And the gpa and class rank part of their academic score may only be about 10-15 points difference. Yet, the one with the slightly lower gpa and class rank, could be HUNDREDS of points higher in their overall academic score. And these are two individuals in the exact same school, same school profile, and basically taking the same classes. The main reason for being HUNDREDS of points difference overall academically is because of ACT/SAT scores.
That's why many here keep emphasizing taking the ACT/SAT as many times as you can. The points some of you are worried about and think are unfair are very insignificant when compared to the points you gain from going from a 27 ACT Math to a 28 or 29 ACT Math.
What about the home schooled who's "School Profile - Mom/Dad" doesn't show a percentage of how many went to college and what type? I understand the concerns that some have about making the scoring fair, but there are 2 things that really need to be emphasized.
1) It can NEVER be 100% fair, because schools, school districts, states, etc... are not standard. Therefor, you can't 100% compare all schools, classes, grades, etc... But the academies do a really good job getting close.
2) Each of these concerns being brought up such as class rank and gpa are just a piece of the puzzle. The academic section of your final score is made up of a lot of facets.
Without getting into details that I can't say, let me put it this way. An individual with a 3.98 can easily have a much higher "Academic Score" in their application than a person with a 4.00. What I mean is: Both individuals can go to the exact same school. One could be #3 ranked in their class; the other one ranked #16. And the gpa and class rank part of their academic score may only be about 10-15 points difference. Yet, the one with the slightly lower gpa and class rank, could be HUNDREDS of points higher in their overall academic score. And these are two individuals in the exact same school, same school profile, and basically taking the same classes. The main reason for being HUNDREDS of points difference overall academically is because of ACT/SAT scores.
That's why many here keep emphasizing taking the ACT/SAT as many times as you can. The points some of you are worried about and think are unfair are very insignificant when compared to the points you gain from going from a 27 ACT Math to a 28 or 29 ACT Math.
YorkieMom75
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OK, thanks!
Thanks Christcorp,
I guess I'm just starting to worry about everything, and I need to take a chill pill.
USAFA has done this year after year, and I'm sure they know what they're doing.
Thanks Christcorp,
I guess I'm just starting to worry about everything, and I need to take a chill pill.
USAFA has done this year after year, and I'm sure they know what they're doing.
Christcorp
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I'm going to try and do something i rarely do. Be VERY BRIEF.
I can't and won't explain the matrix used to calculate the academics part of your total score. However; the part being discussed so passionately, GPA posted and Class rank may be a difference of 10's of points, which is even less significant once the total academic score is formulated. Whereas the difference in points between a 27ACT and a 29-30ACT could be 100's of points. And much more significant once the total academic score is formulated. In other words, the adjusted GPA isn't as significant as you think it is. There's a lot more to the academic formula. Classes taken; classes available; etc... But the most significant portion, just like for most universities, is the SAT/ACT scores. This is the one area; no matter the school you go to or the classes you take; that you have the most control over and can/will have the biggest impact on your final formulated academic score. best of luck. mike...
I can't and won't explain the matrix used to calculate the academics part of your total score. However; the part being discussed so passionately, GPA posted and Class rank may be a difference of 10's of points, which is even less significant once the total academic score is formulated. Whereas the difference in points between a 27ACT and a 29-30ACT could be 100's of points. And much more significant once the total academic score is formulated. In other words, the adjusted GPA isn't as significant as you think it is. There's a lot more to the academic formula. Classes taken; classes available; etc... But the most significant portion, just like for most universities, is the SAT/ACT scores. This is the one area; no matter the school you go to or the classes you take; that you have the most control over and can/will have the biggest impact on your final formulated academic score. best of luck. mike...
Pima
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Everyone stresses over this issue Yorkie, and JMPO, but when you are in the mix you are still trying to grasp the system and make sense of it.
Now people are stressing over profile and rank, cgpa, etc., but as Mike stated the PAR includes the SAT/ACT scores too.
The AFA is not looking for the best SAT candidate (perfect 1600 out of 1600), while they have a 3.1 cgpa; or the 4.0 cgpa, 9 APs and have a 1200 SAT. It is a mix.
Additionally, PAR is 60%. Let's say the applicant gets max points on PAR, but min on the remaining 40%. Due the math, they may be the smartest, but are not well rounded. The W in WCS = Whole, not part.
There are going to be hearts broken in the next few weeks. That is just facts. The reality is many great applicants will wonder why them and not someone else, and after 4 yrs here, usually they will state So and So with a lower gpa, SAT than me got it, how did that happen? The reason why is the word WHOLE. The appointees strength was proving that they balanced academics with ECs and sports.
Yes 60% is PAR, but do not lose sight that there is still 40% left in that score.
It is like juggling, you have to keep all of the items in the air without dropping one!
Mike, I get your point SAT is a biggie for the AFA. I too believe you should take it over and over again, but from a different perspective. 95% of all AFA candidates will apply for AFROTC and many are shocked to find out AFA and AFROTC operate differently in selection. AFA superscores, AFROTC is best sitting. By taking these tests they do get accustomed to them and eventually their best sitting will be stronger than if they take it 3 times and do the scored great on M, so now pay attention to CR/V or vise a verse.
Looking at the scores now and looking back 4 yrs ago when Mike's, Fencers or our child applied the stats are insane. Back in 08 the median was 653 V and 680 M. Flieger and Mike both have stated those scores would not be "safety" for this yr.
I think people also do not understand the military and how it has a direct correlation to our economy and society. When the economy is in the slumps more will apply due to fiscal issues. When society does not fear sending their child into battle risking their lives, more will apply. This yr group got hit with the Trifecta
1. Economy
2. Military withdrawing
3. DOD cutting troop size, and that includes AFA
Now people are stressing over profile and rank, cgpa, etc., but as Mike stated the PAR includes the SAT/ACT scores too.
The AFA is not looking for the best SAT candidate (perfect 1600 out of 1600), while they have a 3.1 cgpa; or the 4.0 cgpa, 9 APs and have a 1200 SAT. It is a mix.
Additionally, PAR is 60%. Let's say the applicant gets max points on PAR, but min on the remaining 40%. Due the math, they may be the smartest, but are not well rounded. The W in WCS = Whole, not part.
There are going to be hearts broken in the next few weeks. That is just facts. The reality is many great applicants will wonder why them and not someone else, and after 4 yrs here, usually they will state So and So with a lower gpa, SAT than me got it, how did that happen? The reason why is the word WHOLE. The appointees strength was proving that they balanced academics with ECs and sports.
Yes 60% is PAR, but do not lose sight that there is still 40% left in that score.
It is like juggling, you have to keep all of the items in the air without dropping one!
Mike, I get your point SAT is a biggie for the AFA. I too believe you should take it over and over again, but from a different perspective. 95% of all AFA candidates will apply for AFROTC and many are shocked to find out AFA and AFROTC operate differently in selection. AFA superscores, AFROTC is best sitting. By taking these tests they do get accustomed to them and eventually their best sitting will be stronger than if they take it 3 times and do the scored great on M, so now pay attention to CR/V or vise a verse.
Looking at the scores now and looking back 4 yrs ago when Mike's, Fencers or our child applied the stats are insane. Back in 08 the median was 653 V and 680 M. Flieger and Mike both have stated those scores would not be "safety" for this yr.
I think people also do not understand the military and how it has a direct correlation to our economy and society. When the economy is in the slumps more will apply due to fiscal issues. When society does not fear sending their child into battle risking their lives, more will apply. This yr group got hit with the Trifecta
1. Economy
2. Military withdrawing
3. DOD cutting troop size, and that includes AFA
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Christcorp
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I wonder if there's such thing as the "QUAD-fecta"
1. Economy
2. Military withdrawing
3. DOD cutting troop size, and that includes AFA
4. The academy, BY LAW, has had too many cadets for the last few years and have commissioned too many officers. They are cutting appointments by more than 10%, and even then, there will still be too many cadets this coming fall.
Christcorp
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iDeltaStorm
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Thanks Everyone!
I couldn't have said it any better! Thanks so much to Pima, Christcorp, and everyone else who helped clear up my assumptions/misunderstandings. I guess its true what they say about people who assume too much...
Thanks Christcorp,
I guess I'm just starting to worry about everything, and I need to take a chill pill.
I couldn't have said it any better! Thanks so much to Pima, Christcorp, and everyone else who helped clear up my assumptions/misunderstandings. I guess its true what they say about people who assume too much...
CristalLee
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A big THANK YOU!
This thread has been most informative and I really appreciate you all taking the time to explain everything.
I was previously concerned with his class rank/GPA and the school's lack of ROTC program, AP classes offered, etc. However now I am not, at least I don't think his school is going to be unfairly represented. His school very competitive academically and is listed in the #30's out of 950+ in the state (I know of two other recent graduates who attended the USAFA as well.) I like that I feel as though he is getting a "fair shake".
One quick question - is there a website that lists what percentage of students go to colleges and what type?
Again, I just wanted to say Thank you and make sure you all know how appreciative I am that this information is available.
This thread has been most informative and I really appreciate you all taking the time to explain everything.
I was previously concerned with his class rank/GPA and the school's lack of ROTC program, AP classes offered, etc. However now I am not, at least I don't think his school is going to be unfairly represented. His school very competitive academically and is listed in the #30's out of 950+ in the state (I know of two other recent graduates who attended the USAFA as well.) I like that I feel as though he is getting a "fair shake".
One quick question - is there a website that lists what percentage of students go to colleges and what type?
Again, I just wanted to say Thank you and make sure you all know how appreciative I am that this information is available.