Is Chemical engineering not an option for AFROTC

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by lsredmond, Mar 12, 2011.

  1. lsredmond

    lsredmond Member

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    My DD received a type 2 AFROTC scholarship but the list of technical majors does not have chemical engineering. The website lists is but her paperwork does not. Does anyone know about this discrepancy? I guess she can choose chemistry as a major but she was hoping for ChemE.
     
  2. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Most likely she chose Chem and ChemE for her intended major. Just contact Maxwell. It shouldn't be a problem to change it to ChemE since she staying in a technical field. It only becomes an issue when you change from tech to non-tech.
     
  3. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    Pima, DS's Type 2 says it is for "Any Major". Are there different levels of AFROTC Type 2 Scholarships? I thought the major only came into play for Type 1 scholarships. :confused:
     
  4. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Actually it exists for every scholarship..you are placed in as tech or non tech. Not major per se. In other words if you applied with an intended major in tech (Chem, EE, CS, etc) and wanted to switch to History, you need to get their approval because you are going tech to non-tech. Now if you enter in as a Chem major and wanted to switch to EE, you just inform them that is your new major since you are staying in the tech field.

    The other thing to be cognizant of is, let's say you are going Chem and that is a 4 yr program, but want to now do EE which is 5 yrs, you need to contact them. The reason why is the AF is expecting you to graduate and enter the AD world in 4 yrs. 5 yrs places you into a different manpower yr for AD. Traditionally, they don't have an issue, but now a days with the force shape re-structuring it is not something I feel comfortable saying that if you are a scholarship cadet you will get the all clear.

    Our DS was home this weekend and he stated they were just informed that 13 is going to be hit hard this yr, harder than 12 for SFT. LY they had 34 out of 63 C200's go to SFT, basically 50%. This yr they expect only 20 out of 60 getting the slot.

    Now what does that mean to them?

    It means that if they don't get SFT and are on scholarship, their scholarship is in jeopardy. They won't get to become a C300, which means they won't meet the AFSC board, and if they wanted rated, they are now boffed. They will go up for SFT again next yr, but here's their problem: Why would the AFROTC board select them when they were passed over the yr before, especially as they are downsizing?

    That means the AFROTC scholarship can disappear because they can decide to cut them loose. Hard to pay for college when you relied on the scholarship, and now you are a sr.

    I cannot pound into every posters cranium enough, be happy for the scholarship, but with that scholarship comes a very big burden. In this day and age, you can't go to school and think I have it for 4 yrs and party/mess around. As hard as you worked in hs for these grades, and ecs, you will need to keep doing it. This is no longer about getting a scholarship, it is now about keeping it and getting your dream career.

    The AFROTC board doesn't draw a line and say all scholarship recipients go to SFT, and non-scholarship fight for the remaining positions. They clear the slate and you all start from scratch. Scholarship is what they call "masked". They do not know who is and who isn't. All they look at it is major, rank, gpa, PFT and AFOQT.

    For some who lost out on a scholarship they can actually get SFT over scholarship, because the college may have offered merit and tied that merit to the gpa. I believe the min gpa for AFROTC is 2.8 or 3.0. Now take that cadet who has the AFROTC scholarship and the kid at VT with merit that reqs. 3.2 and no AFROTC scholarship, you can see how the non-scholarship cadet could get SFT over the scholarship. The non has a higher gpa, and the AFROTC board is going to give them weight for it.

    This also occurs for the AFSC rated board. There is an actual site you can input your data to get your OM. From there you can figure out your chances of getting a rated slot. There 5 things you input into the equation:
    1. Rank (#1-17 in a det of 17, it is the rank placement out of the size of the det going up for rated, not the entire det)
    2. GPA
    3. PCSM (AFOQT and TBAS scores)
    4. SFT RANK (DG, top 10%, 1/3, etc)
    5. PFA

    Notice no SFT...no points...no points...no chance! How do you get SFT...GPA, PFA, rank.

    Nowhere in there did you see scholarship or tech/non-tech, yet GPA is always in the equation.

    I have seen too many cadets fall into the fallacy that if they just make the mins to keep the scholarship, even as a tech major, they have a better shot. This is a FALLACY. Techs will get a bump in points because course rigor, but at a certain point the scales will tip. They are not going to take the 2.8 CE that has no det involvement (jobs -no 1 in the list) over the cadet that is History with a 3.6 and very involved.

    Commanders get that techs have a harder course curriculum, but their job is to groom future officers, and if they can't put a face to the name, it tells them that the cadet is either:
    A. Not able to juggle school and ROTC
    B. Is using ROTC for a scholarship

    Hence, why should they rank them above the non-tech major who is involved, plus a higher gpa.

    Same with scholarship vs non-scholarship tech.

    Pound it into your craniums, come 1st day of ROTC this thought:

    You know what they call a scholarship cadet?
    Cadet!

    You know what they call a non-scholarship cadet?
    Cadet!

    You know what they call a tech major cadet?
    Cadet!

    You know what they call a non-tech major cadet?
    Cadet!

    You are all equal. You all have to prove yourselves again. This time is under the eyes of ADAF officers day in day out in real life and not on paper from an abstract perspective!
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2011
  5. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    Thanks for that useful information, Pima. In this day and age, it seems that the odds fresh out of college of gaining an active duty slot in any branch are MUCH, MUCH higher at a service academy than trying to go the ROTC route. My DS is very focused on ultimately going on AD, so this is something he has to consider along with everything else before choosing his commissioning path.

    If my DS was pursuing the goal of simply earning a commission, then this risk posed by ROTC would be higher. But at the end of the day, if med-school-bound DS doesn't get an AD slot from college, he still has the option to go to med school first and then re-apply for a direct commission and AD slot again (the upside is that he will have less AD commitment via this route, while the downside is that it is more expensive for him).

    DS sees a lot of value with being a line officer for 5 years, then separating for med school (with GI-Bill in hand), then re-entering the service of his choice (assuming the services still need doctors). I think this is his strategy if an Ed Delay isn't in the cards (serving AD for a few years will actually increase his chances to gain admission to a good med school, because the med school admissions officers value that experience). Of course, if he doesn't get very, very high grades in college, he won't have a chance at med school at all and will place his AD dreams in jeopardy. He understands that a lot is riding on his academic performance in college.

    DS has a lot to think about over the next month.
     
  6. lsredmond

    lsredmond Member

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    Thank you for the information!
     
  7. lsredmond

    lsredmond Member

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    Maxwell is telling us that Chemical Engineering is not a technical degree. Maybe we are not talking to the right person. Anyway, we asked them what kind of a degree is Chemical Engineering. Eagerly waiting for the answer.....
     
  8. sprog

    sprog Member

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    what is SFT? Is that what they call Camp now?
     
  9. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Summer Field Training at Maxwell. People will say I went to Maxwell1-6. This yr it is 1-5.

    Rising jrs go (C200). Once completed they become a C300.

    AFROTC does not call it camp, other branches may call it that, but typically AFROTC cadets call it FT or Maxwell.
     
  10. lsredmond

    lsredmond Member

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    Maxwell is telling us that Chemical Engineering is a non-technical major. We must not be talking to the right person. So we asked them how an engineering major could be non-technical. Waiting for the response....
     
  11. lsredmond

    lsredmond Member

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    Here is what they said concerning chemical engineering not being a technical major:

    The needs of the Air force are in the technical majors and Air Staff has directed that these majors are technical majors and any other major outside of these majors are non-technical.

    Technical Majors
    Aeronautical Engineering - 4AYY
    Aerospace Engineering - 4BYY
    Architectural Engineering - 4DYY
    Architecture - 2CAY
    Astronautical Engineering - 4EYY
    Chemistry - 8CYY
    Civil Engineering - 4HYY
    Computer Engineering - 4WYY
    Computer Science - 0CYY
    Electrical Engineering - 4IYY
    Environmental Engineering - 4HEY
    Mathematics - 6YYY
    Mechanical Engineering - 4MYY
    Meteorology/Atmospheric Sciences - 8FYY
    Operations Research - 0YEY
    Physics - 8HYY
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Time out.

    What is her dream AF career assignment?

    She does understand that at LEAST 4 yrs after college (maybe longer) belongs to the AF?

    Don't worry so much about the college degree, worry more about owing the 4 yrs AD...what will you do career wise?

    I do not know one friend of my kids that entered a specific engineering program and walk out in that program. I would guesstimate that 50% still graduated as engineer, but on a good day maybe 5% graduated in their intended major.

    The most common comment for freshman in a specific engineering program on day one is look left, look right, 1 of you will be gone by the end of the freshman yr. It is not an exaggeration. You can stay in engineering, but it is common that they move from EE to CE or ChemE to ME.

    Kids do not know what engineering really entails, they score high on the M SAT and think Physics or Chemistry is cool. Only when they have to live through Organic Chem they start to say I am outta here.

    Again, what does she want in life?

    Does she want a ChemE degree?

    If so why AFROTC?

    Does she want to serve in the AF? They offer Chem and not ChemE, what's the big deal?

    From a ROTC POV there is no big deal, because she will serve at least 4 yrs AD in whatever they decide. Come C300 she will go up for an AFSC board, for all she knows they could decide she will work as a PA officer. Our DS is a non-tech major and he is going UPT. You can't bank on the major as a career.

    Keep saying to yourself...Service before Self.

    You serve at the luxury of their needs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2011
  13. sprog

    sprog Member

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    Maybe nowadays. We used to call it Camp. Officially, it was Field Training.

    I went to Lackland II in '97. We also used to say AS 200 or AS 300. I don't remember the "C" designation. Times change, I guess.
     
  14. lsredmond

    lsredmond Member

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    Chemistry is not a bad option , it is just that if she is admitted into the engineering school at whatever university, but then has to choose Chemistry as a major , does she jeopardize her admittance into the University since she didn't apply to the arts and sciences school?

    She loves chemistry and would take AP chemistry again if she could. During Summer Seminar at USAFA, she took the Chemistry of Weapons class and really enjoyed it. She would like to go into research and development for the Air Force.
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Time has changed.

    C is A for you.

    C200 is sophomore yr.

    The only place it occurs at now is Maxwell. LY they had 1-6, this yr it is 1-5.

    Caveat: 1-5 will have larger groups than LY, however the talk in the wind is they will reduce it from 2200 LY to 1800 TY.
     
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    lsredemond,

    I have never heard of a college that would say Chem is arts and sciences.

    In the end of the day this is now becoming a college issue and you need to see where they place the line in the sand regarding Chem and CHemE.

    The real question is not about the major, but more about does she want to serve in the AF in any career that hand down?

    If she is willing to be the Public Affairs Officer as a Chem major for 4 yrs because she wants to wear the blue uniform, GO FOR IT!

    If she would hate to do that, than DON'T GO FOR IT!

    There is no guarantee regarding their career field, there is only a guarantee she will owe at least 4 yrs.

    You do not get to pick and choose your jobs for the most part, they will try to match you up, but sometimes you just suck it in.

    Bullet did not want to take a desk job, but the AF said you will go here and do this.

    Honestly, as an AFROTC cadet it is 3 yrs of working and even then you worry.

    Do NOT take a scholarship for a career field, take it with the desire to raise your right hand and say...I, _____ , swear/affirm I will support and uphold the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, so help me God.

    Notice nowhere in that commissioning oath does it say as a Pilot, JAG, Engineer, etc.

    Think about it. In this economy many people take the scholarship as free money. They don't realize when they are 22-23 that they will take that oath.

    When you read it you see life differently. You no longer have a voice in your life...you belong to them.
     
  17. lsredmond

    lsredmond Member

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    Pima,

    Thank you for your advice. My daughter will need to weigh her options. I guess I really don't know what school the Chemistry major falls under; but I figured it wasn't the engineering school. More research is required on her part. Thanks again.
     
  18. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    I look at service to our nation a bit differently. I was a biology major. I then went Infantry and had a lot of fun blowing things up and running around with an M-16. And then went to law school, and almost went back to JAG. My time in the service helped me in life (not just as a vet, but also in terms of maturity for grad school). Sure Infantry is not like biology, but I wouldn't have traded my experience for anything.

    So I don't see anything wrong with with studying ChemE in college, serving in the Air Force as a PAO, separating from service to study biochem in grad school, and then inventing the cure for cancer at the post-military career at NIH.

    Although I haven't read any statistics, I would be willing to bet that an overwhelming majority of SA grads and scholarship students don't make the military a career.

    Different strokes, I suppose.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2011
  19. Ohio2015Parent

    Ohio2015Parent Member

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    Know obsolutely nothing about AF. Saw the thread was about Chem. Will share: my oldest DD is a Chem major/secondary ed w/minor physics. As Pima mentioned, until you see Organic, Physical Chem and/or a few other 400+ level Chem classes its hard to predict. Also, Chemistry is under the school of Arts & Sciences at most schools we've encounter in Ohio/Kentucky area, so not surprised its not in engineering school. Just for the record: DD is changing majors(yeah, its gonna cost me a 5th year....:rolleyes:) to middle grade science and math education. She also loved AP Chem & Physics, but in her case, wants to teach more than lab/research and the idea of 6-8 more classes of 400-500 level chem and physics just isn't her idea of a good time(or great for her academic merit scholarship either:wink:) Hope your daughter has an amazing time in college, despite her changing her major and the complications its brings, my DD has become an adult and I couldn't be more proud of her. Good luck!!
     
  20. paradoxer

    paradoxer Member

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    Chem Eng

    Back in the day every single Chem Eng that ever applied to medical school was accepted from DH's university. It's really a tough degree so if you can excel in Chem Eng that really says something about your ability to learn difficult material. Guessing it hasn't changed much for any of those looking to be in med school some day.

    Chemistry and Chem Eng are quite different in terms of the application of the math, might want to talk to some people about what would be best for DD.
     

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