Is NROTC Tier III realistic?

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nrotctier3

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Hello, my DS is currently applying for the NROTC 4-year scholarship program as well as the USNA, but due to his somewhat low GPA (3.5) as well as the major he listed on his NROTC app (International Relations), he believes his chances are slim to get anything out of High School (He has already failed to secure the USNA nomination). His passion and talents at this point is strongly directed towards Political Science and IR. The unit instructors at a local NROTC unit we visited urged him to go Marine option, but his heart is set on the Naval service.

His PRT scores are not going to be a problem; he runs cross-country for his school and also does football and track. His ACT score is a 33 (32/33/34/33) and his SAT-R score is 1450 (750 R/700 M). Although he tests high in math, it is far from his passion, and he's struggling a lot in AP calculus: however, he's able to handle multiple AP history courses without appearing to have much trouble at all. If he does not receive the scholarship, he will probably not take Calculus or Physics in university.

How badly would this affect him if he went as a "college program" midshipman? And what would be his chances to receive the 4-year?

Thanks
 
Statistically speaking, even a candidate with superior credentials who opts for a Tier III major is unlikely to be awarded a 4-year scholarship. I don't know whether it makes any difference if college programmers take Physics and Calculus, but I would like to share some general thoughts about competing for a spot in NROTC.

Your DS should carefully and candidly examine his priorities. Is his number one goal to be commissioned as a naval officer, or is it to major in political science? If the commission really is his number one goal, he needs to understand that there is a lot of competition for a limited number of slots. To have the best opportunity to reach that goal, he will have to make some compromises. He obviously has the aptitude to successfully pursue a technical major, which will make him more valuable to the Navy, help fill their mandatory quotas, and greatly enhance his chances for a scholarship (or advanced standing as a college programmer). Had he been admitted to USNA, he could have majored in political science - but he would have had to take a ton of physics, calculus, and engineering courses. It will be much the same curriculum if he declares a physics or math major at a civilian university, and takes a minor in Poli Sci or IR.

One more consideration. There are not any entry-level assignments in the Navy where a non-technical major is directly relevant. Unlike the other services, where junior officers can be assigned to intelligence or analytical fields, the first four years in the Navy have to be served "on the line" - on a ship, sub, or plane. But the advantage is that during the first shore tour (which is typically right after the fourth year), it is easy to get a masters degree in a non-technical field - and the Navy will pay some or all of the tuition. And it will come at a time when career fields that fit his interests will be open to him.
 
Well he could certainly go as a college programmer. He might face issues when it comes to a sideload (in-school) scholarship or advanced standing between sophomore and junior years. The Navy does try to achieve its goals when it comes to STEM majors. 85% of high school scholarships are awarded to STEM majors, as I'm sure you know. I don't know what percentage they want to achieve in the fleet but I do know they expect some attrition and therefore that percentage must be lower. On the other hand, 15% or more are Tier III majors. You place your bets and you take your chances. BTW - if he is set on these majors he should continue to pursue them IMHO. If he's not happy with his major he will not be happy in college or in NROTC. If he's happy with his major he'l thrive.

I would add that even as a college programmer he will need to meet certain general academic requirements as a Navy Option midshipman. This includes two semesters of calculus and two semesters of calculus based physics. I expect there is also some calculus involved in the navigation courses but I can't swear to that. So even without the scholarship there is math in his future if he pursues NROTC as a Navy Option midshipmen. I'm also quite certain he will not achieve advanced standing without having already completed these requirements and doing well in the courses.

I too would have recommended pursuing the Marine Option as it seems to be a better fit academically, but if his heart is set on going Navy then that is what he should do. BTW - Marine Option midshipmen are not required to take Calculus or Physics (along with not caring what the major is).

Hope this is helpful.
 
Agree with Kinnem. Pursue what makes him happy and understand tier 3 is tough to get. If he doesn't get a scholarship, work for a side load, if not side load, pursue advanced standing. His GPA is lower than most, but his test scores are on par. He can also reapply to USNA. If this is what he wants continue to pursue all paths.
 
Can't help but see the similarities with my son's path. The Navy said no twice...USNA and NROTC. He originally was going to try to go the college programmer route, but then realized that was a national competition and he would still be less desirable as an IR major and although he did well in Calculus and Physics he wasn't excited about either one. So this grandson of a Seabee, NJROTC gungho kid who always saw himself on a ship picked the college that was best for his major and joined an AROTC battalion (one of his NJROTC instructors told him that "the Army has a lot of jobs for guys who study IR"). He commissioned in May. Same team different uniform.
 
DeskJockey said:
Statistically speaking, even a candidate with superior credentials who opts for a Tier III major is unlikely to be awarded a 4-year scholarship. I don't know whether it makes any difference if college programmers take Physics and Calculus, but I would like to share some general thoughts about competing for a spot in NROTC.

Your DS should carefully and candidly examine his priorities. Is his number one goal to be commissioned as a naval officer, or is it to major in political science? If the commission really is his number one goal, he needs to understand that there is a lot of competition for a limited number of slots. To have the best opportunity to reach that goal, he will have to make some compromises. He obviously has the aptitude to successfully pursue a technical major, which will make him more valuable to the Navy, help fill their mandatory quotas, and greatly enhance his chances for a scholarship (or advanced standing as a college programmer). Had he been admitted to USNA, he could have majored in political science - but he would have had to take a ton of physics, calculus, and engineering courses. It will be much the same curriculum if he declares a physics or math major at a civilian university, and takes a minor in Poli Sci or IR.
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He's smart, but based off his math and science grades, aptitude may be a huge stretch (A 33 on the ACT math implies potential, but a consistent "C" in every single math course implies a lack of motivation and understanding of the material). The instructors at the unit we visited gave us the general idea that if he would pursue the College Program path as a Tier 3 major and failed to take calculus or physics, his chance of receiving any sideload would be almost zero and that his best bet would have to be Advanced Standing. Although we are financially capable of pushing him through and an OOS school with NROTC has already offered an substantial amount of scholarships, having only a single shot at commissioning seems overly risky. They did mention one caveat which was the "LREC" program, which he has expressed interest in pursuing since he already has the basic knowledge of both Chinese and Russian. Would this make up for his overall lack of technical aptitude, or is it not enough?

Thanks
 
DD is a Tier III who will commission next spring. She has an aptitude for math but much prefers humanities and opted to go the College Programmer route and not worry about having to meet the navy's requirements for majors. I believe the rule is that 85% of scholarship recipients have to be Tier I or II with the goal of commissioning 65% Tier I and II among scholarship winners. College Programmers don't figure into the calculations and are not required to take Calculus or Physics if they are Navy option. That being said, the chances of picking up a scholarship if he so desires go up greatly if he takes Calculus and Physics, and it will also provide more service selection/assignment options. DD had one of her required philosophy classes which required two semesters of calculus with a "B" or better as a prerequisite, so she took the calculus and physics anyway and ended up choosing to go into the navy as a nuke.
 
Here is a repost of some earlier posted statistics on side load scholarships and advanced standing awards for your enjoyment:

From Aug 9 2016
3-Year Scholarships
Nominations: 304
Selects: 60
Non-selects: 244

2-Year Scholarships
Nominations: 200
Selects: 19
Non-selects: 181 (automatically considered for Advanced Standing)

Advanced Standing
Nominations: 228 (181 carried over from 2-year applicants)
Selects: 121
Non-selects: 97

From July 27, 2016
Advanced Standing is getting EASIER to receive the past couple years, as there are significantly more slots recently. The selection rate for Advanced Standing last year was well over 50%, and it will be similar this year. If you fail to get selected for a side load scholarship or Advanced Standing before your junior year, you will be automatically be dropped from the unit.

From June 21, 2016
Not having Calculus/Physics complete is going to be a major roadblock. Last summer the board awarded 29 2-year Side Loads. Of those selected, 29/29 were complete with Calc 1 and 2, and 24/29 were complete with Phys 1 and 2. I don't see you getting past the 2-year board with Calculus 2 incomplete.

Advanced Standing is a different story. The selection rate was over 50% last year (vice about 15% for the 2-year). Only about half were Calc complete, and only about a third were Phys complete. GPA and aptitude were more important- the average GPA was 3.18.

From June 22, 2016
Last summer, 199 rising juniors applied for 2-year scholarships. Of those, 29 were selected for the scholarship. The remaining students competed for 118 advanced standing slots. So, it was well over a 50% selection rate for advanced standing.

From May 31, 2016
Here is the selection data from the Summer 2015 Navy Side load/advanced standing board (stats are reflective of the group of individuals who were SELECTED for scholarship/advanced standing, not the entire pool of applicants; the board is national):

3-year:
Nominations: 303
Selects: 66
Avg. GPA: 3.48
% of Recipients Calc I/II Complete: 89.4%
% of Recipients Phys I/II Complete: 30.3%
% of Recipients Tech Majors (Tier 1/2): 93.9%

2-year:
Nominations: 199
Selects: 29
Avg. GPA: 3.48 (not a typo, same as 3-year)
% of Recipients Calc I/II Complete: 100%
% of Recipients Phys I/II Complete: 82.8%
% of Recipients Tech Majors (Tier 1/2): 89.7%

Advanced Standing:
Nominations: 195 (all 2-year side load non selects are automatically considered)
Selects: 118
Avg. GPA: 3.18
% of Recipients Calc I/II Complete: 57.6%
% of Recipients Phys I/II Complete: 34.7%
% of Recipients Tech Majors (Tier 1/2): 56.8%

So here are the big takeaways:
-The Navy values technical majors
-If you want to pursue a Tier 3 major, that's OK, but you need to EXCEL if you expect to earn a scholarship
-Apply for ALL scholarship opportunities; don't just pigeonhole yourself into advanced standing
-Calc and Phys completion and grades mean something

This is from @bman from June 22, 2016
2014 NAVY ROTC STATISTICS
· 220 were nominated for 2 year scholarships, 64 scholarships were granted
· 127 were given an offer of advanced standing
· There were 25 who wanted advanced standing (I believe this was 25 who accepted the offer, but he may have meant that there were 25 who wanted advanced standing but not a scholarship?)
2013 NAVY ROTC STATISTICS
· 30 applied for 2-year scholarships, 5 were granted, others had option to apply for advanced standing
· 20 applied for advanced standing, all 20 were granted advanced standing
2012 NAVY ROTC STATISTICS
· They gave 950 four-year-scholarships with the intention of commissioning 725 officers in four years
· They had 330 college students nominated for side-load scholarships for 271 slots.
· They gave 251 of these scholarships. Their goal is to fill all of their spots with scholarships, but they still had twenty slots to fill.
· They had 58 students apply for advanced standing to fill the final 20 slots, and gave 20 of these advanced standing (34%). Those who received advanced standing were divided among all three tiers.
 
kinnem said:
I expect there is also some calculus involved in the navigation courses but I can't swear to that.
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Never did the NROTC thing... but considering the scope of the KP education I can pretty confidently say that as long as you've got a grip on 9th grade algebra, trig, and how to use a TI-30 you'll be fine for any navigation problem you could ever expect to see. That's all it takes to get through KP... and there is probably 10x more material covered there.
 
nrotctier3 said:
Hello, my DS is currently applying for the NROTC 4-year scholarship program as well as the USNA, but due to his somewhat low GPA (3.5) as well as the major he listed on his NROTC app (International Relations), he believes his chances are slim to get anything out of High School (He has already failed to secure the USNA nomination). His passion and talents at this point is strongly directed towards Political Science and IR. The unit instructors at a local NROTC unit we visited urged him to go Marine option, but his heart is set on the Naval service.

His PRT scores are not going to be a problem; he runs cross-country for his school and also does football and track. His ACT score is a 33 (32/33/34/33) and his SAT-R score is 1450 (750 R/700 M). Although he tests high in math, it is far from his passion, and he's struggling a lot in AP calculus: however, he's able to handle multiple AP history courses without appearing to have much trouble at all. If he does not receive the scholarship, he will probably not take Calculus or Physics in university.

How badly would this affect him if he went as a "college program" midshipman? And what would be his chances to receive the 4-year?

Thanks
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Picking Navy or Marine option simply based on someone's desired major is absurd. The services are completely and entirely different and unique. Your son should pursue the Navy Tier 3 route if he is strongly interested in one of the above majors. His test scores are above the average (1396) and will do a lot to make him competitive. Selecting "Yes" for the LREC scholarship question on the application would be the smart move as well, since about 30-40 Tier 3 scholarships per year are LREC; it will increase odds of selection.

If he is not awarded the National scholarship out of high school, he should join his desired unit as a College Program student and reapply at the start of freshman year; he'll use the same National Scholarship application. Given his test scores, if he's successful as a College Program student, he'll have a strong likelihood of picking up scholarship freshman year. If for some reason he wasn't awarded the National then either, the 2 and 3-year Side Load scholarships come into play, stats for which you see above. The formula for Side Load selection is straightforward: strong aptitude/ranking within your class, GPA north of about 3.4-3.5, within physical standards, and Bs or better in Calculus and Physics.

He needs to take Calculus and Physics regardless, and to take them early. If he goes in as a scholarship student out of high school, he has to take them. If he picks up the National as a freshman, he has to take them. You will hardly even be considered for a Side Load if you haven't taken them, and if for some reason you get picked without them.....you still have to take them. The only scenario where a student would not take Calculus or Physics is one in which they join as a College Program student and only ever have aspirations of earning Advanced Standing between sophomore and junior year. I'd never recommend that gamble to anyone though, as you pay for two years of school while going through NROTC and then have about a 50% chance of getting Advanced Standing. If you get it, awesome, you still have two more years of school to pay for. If you don't, you're kicked out of the program. If all your son chooses to pursue is advanced standing, he's really just signing up for a 50% chance to get told no in 2 years.

Another thing about Advanced Standing- over 50% of those selected each year are complete with Calculus, and many have started or completed Physics, making them more competitive for selection. Also, College Program students are required to take 2 semesters of college level math and 2 semesters of some sort of physical science. So, in the grand scheme of things, it's not like they escape all that much work.
 
Thank you all for your information. I have gone over all of the statistics with my DS, and he has decided to follow the advice given to him and change to Marine Option since what he wished to do in the Naval service (Pilot/EOD) can also be done in the Marine Corps. Although he applied as an Navy Option LREC, the chances of him picking up is nil and Im hopeful he will earn an MO sideloads in the near future. Judging from his times in cross-country, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

He has already received his acceptance letters to Mizzou and Nebraska-Lincoln, and we are waiting to hear back from Purdue, U of South Carolina, Auburn, OSU, Marquette, and Miami University. Does anyone have any experience with these units? What is the general atmosphere/PT/lifestyle like?

Thanks
 
nrotctier3 said:
Thank you all for your information. I have gone over all of the statistics with my DS, and he has decided to follow the advice given to him and change to Marine Option since what he wished to do in the Naval service (Pilot/EOD) can also be done in the Marine Corps. Although he applied as an Navy Option LREC, the chances of him picking up is nil and Im hopeful he will earn an MO sideloads in the near future. Judging from his times in cross-country, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

He has already received his acceptance letters to Mizzou and Nebraska-Lincoln, and we are waiting to hear back from Purdue, U of South Carolina, Auburn, OSU, Marquette, and Miami University. Does anyone have any experience with these units? What is the general atmosphere/PT/lifestyle like?

Thanks
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Work on pullups and crunches or situps (whichever the Corps does). One pullup is 5 points. That's where you can really score in the PFT.

Can't speak to the others but S Carolina was a terrific unit when my kid was there. They always at least place, if not win, in the Mardi Gras Drill meet. They have an excellent record in having Marine Option midshipmen successfully completing OCS. The training in spring semester of junior year in preparation for OCS can be pretty intense. Of course, the cadre is entirely different now than it was when my son was there. It will turnover at least once while your DS is there, so your mileage may vary. OTOH the midshipmen really run the unit and there is a lot passed down from class to class so it won't change overnight either. Same for the other units.

DS loved S Carolina and the unit. Go Gamecocks.
 
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