Is Prozac allowed for cadets with anxiety or depression?

[kinnem]

If you get a medical discharge from ROTC you don't have to pay the scholarship back. I personally know two cdts who got discharges their MS3 year and didn't pay anything back. I'm not a 100% sure you can get discharges for a mental illness but you do need a wavier to be on antidepressants and can't enlist if you're on them. I would seriously advise your daughter to get help and if she gets kicked out for it she can try to get a medical discharge. She should go talk to her cadre about her options.

Your comment makes me wonder if pursuing a waiver to get on anti-depressants might be a way to address the issue at least temporarily. If she can get herself back to some normal state where she is back in some "chemical balance" that would help her deal with all this. It would certainly seem to be the right way to begin a "medical discharge" process.

 

[paradoxer]

Just so you know

Unfortunately recent events have caused me to come back here to revisit this issue.


Financial impact if she drops ROTC now:

OK, so by my reckoning, if her Cadre or CC decide she owes the financial obligation referenced in her ROTC Scholarship Cadet Contract, she would owe the Army $68,000 in repayment obligation through this 5th semester, and it would cost her an additional approx. $45,000 ($20,000 from Direct Loans plus $25,000 from PLUS loans) to continue at this college and graduate. This is compared to $0.00 (her school scholarship pays for Room/Board) if she doesn't drop.. That's an obligation of $117,000 -- that she doesn't have.

So, if she stays in ROTC, she graduates debt free, goes Reserves, and will need to find a job. But not a lot of pressure because she will be debt free.

She has absolutely no clue how that amount of unforgiveable debt -- $117,000 (you cannot declare for bankruptcy relief) would limit her choices of career and recreation for the next 20 years. She wouldn't even be able to consider a job paying less than 60,000 per year, so that rules out school teaching, relief work, church work, administrative assistant work, or any other job paying less than.... get this... $70,000 per year. No vacations. No expensive trips to visit friends. Share a 1 bedroom apartment. Keep repairing her 9 year old car, etc. No possibility of masters level work, which is expensive and typically not funded like PhD work is. She would basically be in a straight jacket that allowed for no more than very hard work, and little play, with no other options, for at least 10 years. Nose to the grindstone. She would almost be like an indentured servant from midieval days for the next ten years.

I found a loan calculator online, and the monthly payment for a 10 year loan at 7.9% interest on the PLUS, 5.9% on the Direct and 0.2% on the Army payback would be $1,108 per month. For 20 years on the Student Loans, but still 10 yrs. on the Army payback, it would be $1,029 per month for the first ten years, then $536 per month for years 10-20.
First, I think the odds of her finding a job that pays more than $50,000 per month as a Life Sciences major is about... 10%? The odds of a job paying $70,000 are about.. maybe 2% as a Life Sciences major.




There are other repayment plans based on income and not based on years of payback, check out Income Based Repayment, with looks at family size and income to determine repayment amount. The PLUS loans are not her responsibility they are the responsibility of the parent. So with these realities she would have some job flexibility.(You haven't addressed transferring to a less expensive school.) The army repayment that probably won't wiggle but really at the end of the day her health has to be the primary concern.

 

[MabryPsyD]

A question "I" would ask the cadre: does a mental health evaluation REALLY count as a psychiatric history? To me its the equivalent of having vehicle diagnostic show up on a car-fax report. Again, bias

Is your DD in "treatment" or has she just been evaluated? Dropping ROTC is a financially painful option, but what are the alternatives and the pros and cons of sticking with ROTC?

 

[Moosestache]

#1 I am certainly not a Doctor.
#2 That being said, I have raised a mess of kids.

So that being said, it sounds like she doesn't want to be in the military and that is, potentially a big sourse of her anxiety.

If this is the case, it would certainly seem like she should get help and start the process to remove herself from ROTC.

While the money part may, or may not be tough, trying to convince her to stay in, refuse treatment, and end up doing something she doesn't want to do sounds plain stupid, and possibly dangerous. While trying to find ways that she can circumvent the mental illness rules the military has put in place, certainly seems to go against what is in the best interest of the military.

I find it very hard to believe anyone is even considering not recommending her seek imediate psychiatric councelling. I am sorry, but the cost of college, which most every other college kid has to face with loans etc, is a small price to pay for the mental and possible physical health of a child, who certainly seems, from your descriptions, to be struggling.

 

[NavyHoops]

Like others, I am not doctor... But if she has this much anxiety with school and ROTC, what happens when she is on a live fire range, leading troops and even possibly deployed. I know she thinks NG/Reserves might be less stressful, what happens if she is activated for two years? Her health, mental and physical, is so much more important than any of this. She may need to take some time off school, get some professional help and then re-evaluate what is best down the road. A happy, healthy thriving DD is I am sure what you want most for her. It is ok if this is not the right path for her. Its better to know now then 4 years from now. 10 years from now hopefully this is a small bump in the road and you can all look back at it and know the right decisions were made. Good luck.

 

[mbitr]

Forget about ROTC for now. Have you considered that your daughter may have suffered some sort of traumatic event? This sort of behavior is consistent with what we're trained as leaders to look for when someone has something serious happen to them that isn't necessarily apparent. I would suggest you intervene to make sure your child isn't burying something more significant and assist her in getting care. The Army will still be here tomorrow, Ted Cruz not withstanding.

 

[payitforward]

I am inspired by @anxious's diligent note-taking on these issues over time. I know you didn't come here to be inspiring -- and I'm sorry I have nothing useful to add to the advice you're being given here -- but I just wanted you to know that I'm praying for your family, and grateful that you have shared your story. I always write down notes when I talk to my ROTC son, but I don't keep them in any organized notebook. I believe now I will start doing that.

May peace come sooner rather than later to you and your family.

 

[anxious]

it sounds like she doesn't want to be in the military and that is, potentially a big sourse of her anxiety.

Comment 1 on that: Except that it's becoming clear she has been much more anxious than the average person for several years now... just never diagnosed, or treated. At this point the anxiety, whether enough to be diagnosed as a disorder, needs to be treated in any case. How coming out the other end of that treatment affects her feelings that she needs to drop ROTC, drop Physics, transfer schools, and change major will have to be seen. At this point my gut tells me she doesn't actually hate any of those four ... ROTC, , Physics, School, Major, but she is attempted to reduce stress, and those are her four primary stressors right now... well, maybe she hates Physics, but that seems pretty normal to me.

It may end up a moot point anyway, b/c if she ends up at that last resort of needing medication to bring her anxiety back to a level that most people have, she wouldn't be fit for duty. Then she gets discharged medically, with or without a repayment obligation. I'm still not clear on how that repayment obligation would play out. One poster says two cadets were medically DQ and didn't incur an obligation. Others don't seem to be sure. On the other hand, if she learns non-medical techniques to control her anxiety, then she may be fit for duty. That's for DODMERB to decide, in the end.

it sounds like she doesn't want to be in the military and that is, potentially a big sourse of her anxiety.

Comment 2 on that: We all make choices in life. I didn't like college particularly, but I made the best of it. I worked 16 hours per week during school, and full time in the summer, to pay for it. I had two roomates in a tiny one bedroom apartment... not b/c I wanted to, but b/c it was what was needed at the time. I certainly wouldn't have gone to all that trouble if it had been the case that I could have had just as rewarding a career by skipping college. I did something I didn't want to do, with the larger goal of enhancing my life and eventually my family's life by that sacrifice. I don't particularly like taking out the trash, but I do it for the same reason. I don't particularly like watching certain TV shows that are the favorite of my wife, but I do so because there aren't that many shows we both like equally. I don't like mowing my own lawn, but I do it to save $80 per month the mow and blow guys in our neighborhood charge.

Think about it, who would keep working if they didn't need to? Why do people count down the months to retirement? Who "wants" to work? Maybe 20% of workers, if that? Those 20% are blessed indeed. I wouldn't keep working. I don't hate work, but there are a lot of things I'd rather do with that time. I'd retire and do things that are rewarding to me, such as volunteering at Church, volunteering at our local school, coaching a youth sports team, playing golf, etc. Most people spend a good portion of their day doing things they wouldn't do if they were wealthy and could do whatever they wanted all day long.

So, basically I'm saying that your comment about "doesnt want to be in the Military" is the same to me as saying -- "doesn't want to be in a hard class", and "doesn't want to be in a hard major", and "doesn't want to work over the summer", etc. You do what you have to do, if you can tolerate the stress, with the goal of making as good a life as you can for yourself, and your loved ones.

I find it very hard to believe anyone is even considering not recommending her seek imediate psychiatric councelling. .

well, lots of people HAVE recommended that, as far as I can tell in this thread. I recommended she see a licensed Psychologist, and found one for her, having the gut feeling this was beyond the scope of traditional college health center services. She saw the licensed Psychologist this past MOnday, and he did not recommend, yet anyway, that she see a Psychiastrist. By and large, Psychologists diagnose, and if necessary, refer to a Psychiatrist to initiate the medical (drug) treatment. This hasn't happened yet, and I have confidence that a PhD Psychologist would know when is the time to do that referral.

 

[anxious]

if she has this much anxiety with school and ROTC, what happens when she is on a live fire range, leading troops and even possibly deployed. I know she thinks NG/Reserves might be less stressful, what happens if she is activated for two years? Her health, mental and physical, is so much more important than any of this. .

Agreed. If she is able to modify her way of coping with normal stress through counseling, yoga, prayer, and other non-medical techniques, then she would just be like most other Officers - strong is some areas, weaker in others, but not perfect. If she would need meds, then we agree 100%... and it isn't really a discussion anyway, b/c it would be an automatic medical discharge.

 

[MabryPsyD]

I think you're missing a GIANT piece of the puzzle. Its not the medication that makes a service member unfit for duty. It's the diagnosis that makes a service member unfit for duty. You stated your DD has been coping with anxiety for years. Regardless of medication, if she is diagnosed with an anxiety disorder she is unfit.

k. Current or history of anxiety disorders (anxiety (300.01) or panic (300.2)), agoraphobia (300.21), social phobia
(300.23), simple phobias (300.29), obsessive-compulsive (300.3), other acute reactions to stress (308), and posttraumatic
stress disorder (309.81) do not meet the standard.

I'm getting a judgmental vibe from you, in regards to mental health providers. The providers on your DD's campus are qualified to treat and diagnosis mental disorders. Both masters and doctoral level mental health providers can easily diagnose and treat anxiety. Your previous comments about the university mental health providers is a head scratcher. LPCs, social workers, psychologists, psychiatrists, ALL have training superior to your "gut feeling".

I just want you to be aware of the mental health resources available to your DD and the competencies of the professionals in the field.

 

[anxious]

^ not judgemental, just didn't say it right. I assumed that she would first go in the the school clinic for a general screening, then have to wait until a later time for an appointment to see a Psychologist. I could be wrong but I get the idea they're pretty busy. I simply cut to the chase by finding a Psychologist that had an immediate evening opening.

I was making a connection between being diagnosed with a disorder, and needing medication. I guess you can have a disorder and not medicate, but I'm not sure why that would be.

I was thinking, perhaps wrongly, that if she were diagnosed with a degree of anxiety that didn't require medication, a degree of anxiety that she could manage with talk therapy and perhaps some other techniques a lot of people use, that she would not be unfit. Perhaps I'm wrong on that too. I figured DODMERB would just figure it out once things are more clear. I jsut realized we haven't been talking about depression in the past few posts, but in some ways I'm more concerned about that than about anxiety.

 

[Moosestache]

I guess I am not trying to argue with you, simply pointing out, with basically no knowlege of the situation, what so ever, that your daughter sounds unhappy. Councelling her to tough it out doesn't seem to be working. She seems to be spiraling downhill quickly, all of this based upon what you are telling us. Bringing up the fact that you didn't like college, and most people don't like their job may not really be the right attitude to take.

Both of my son's tell me they love college and couldn't wait to go back. Perhaps because they are tired of hanging out with dad, but hopefully because they enjoy it. If they didn't like it I would try and help them find someway, or something to make them happy.

PS For me personally, one of the most stressfull things in my life is when I have to tell my father something I know will dissapoint him. I am a 46 year old man and he is 71, it was much much tougher for me when I was 20.

 

[anxious]

I've got a semi-positive update:

My daughter decided to drop Physics and replace it with a 1 unit workshop that will keep her at the 12 unit minimum to be classified as a full time student.

Her mood has changed 180 degrees.

This does not solve the underlying issue with anxiety. It just removes one major source of stress that exacerbates her anxiety (the first time she ever failed a test) that seemed to have pushed her over the edge into hating her situation at school. From that terrible mood, she questioned everything, and nothing seemed good (her school, her major, ROTC, her future).

So, for now the crisis is abated. However, in terms of her enjoyment and success in life, she does still need to figure out how to deal with excessive (compared to most people) worry, and anxiety, because life brings stresses, sometimes huge amounts, and she doesn't yet know how to cope with those times in the way most people do. Right now when stress reaches a certain level (lack of sleep, failing a class, enduring the hardest class in her major without adequate preparation), she stops functioning at her usual high level. The straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. Every person has that breaking point, which is why the majority of otherwise stellar sailors DOR out of BUD/S. Seal training is 90% mental and 10% physical. However, in my view this amount of stress in her situation should not have caused a future officer to go into a downward spiral.

As of now, she feels like a new person. She slept through the three hours her Physics lab used to occupy and woke up remembering how life is supposed to feel. I'll wait a week or two and then ask her what help she needs from us, or how she plans to figure out how to deal with stressful situations going forward. It is possible she can work this out. I still haven't figured out whether her visit to the Psychologist at my suggestion is something she is compelled to discuss with her cadre.

 

[wildcatmom]

Anxious, thanks for keeping us updated..