Is this possible?

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Wannabe32, May 22, 2016.

  1. Wannabe32

    Wannabe32 Member

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    Say a mid's end goal is to become a sub officer; however, he/she was selected for SWO. Could this mid turn down/ leave the NROTC unit before commissioning and enlist?
     
  2. NavyHoops

    NavyHoops Moderator

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    Possibly, all depends on separation codes. The chances are if you want subs and are qualified for it (grades and pass the interview) you will get it.
     
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  3. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Interesting. I always thought NROTC was like AFROTC, as a junior they will sign their commitment papers, and are now locked into serving as an officer.
    ~ My DS was AFROTC scholarship, thus he actually signed three times (?) ~~ 1st for the scholarship. 2nd as a sophomore to acknowledge that if he left ROTC he would owe $$$ or be required to enlist. 3rd as a junior to acknowledge he would owe 4 yrs ADAF upon commissioning.

    IOWS, there was no option as a POC to say to USAF: You didn't give me my number 1 career field choice, thus, I am outta here and will enlist instead. Granted, you could request that option, but due to the fact that they were meeting their enlistment recruitment numbers it was unlikely that even if you did get the release, they would pick you up for enlistment.

    That being said, I do agree from what I have always seen here, requesting subs in the Navy is like RPAs in the AF. It is a critical manning field currently. That means they are forcing people into that field because they don't have enough asking to be in that field. Basically, if qual'd and it is your number 1, than you will get it.

    I would also have a very open and honest conversation with him, even if they grant him the ability to switch from officer to enlisted upon graduation, it will be a different world for him in multiple ways.
    1. Go to DFAS.mil and look up the pay chart for an E-4/5. Does he have student loans? If so, how much money will that leave him from payday to payday? Remember to add in the other little things on top of that...car pmt., insurance, cell phone, credit cards, etc.
    ~ Is that dream to be in a sub worth the difference. An O1 for 2016 with less than 2 yrs makes in base pay 2972. This is before you add in BAH. An E5 makes 2231.
    ~~ 2 yrs later, an O2 with 2 yrs in makes 3900, even if they get promoted to an E6 in 2 yrs., he will top out at 2680. This is assuming they bring him in as an E5, not an E4.
    ~~~ Sub pay also will be less.

    2. Go to BAH calculator (rates)
    ~ Again there will be a difference in his paycheck between the officer and enlisted.
    ~~ It just keeps piling on financially.

    3. Life after the military
    ~ At 20 the idea that one day they will be 42 is OMG! I will be so OLD! However, the reality is that if he does 20 yrs, be it enlisted in subs, or officer non-sub, he will start his 2nd career with a retirement paycheck (current system) for the rest of his life. See above for DFAS.
    ~~ O5 over 18 yrs = 8388. E9 over 18 = 5536. Retirement pay is a % of basic pay. Leaving at 20 on the dot, means 1 will get @4100 per month until they die, and the other gets @2800. As a parent with a college age student I think you would agree that financially it could mean the difference between them paying for your grandchild's education and your grandchild needing to take more loans to attend college. Just saying that to them they are so young they can't see that aspect.

    ~ 2nd career options
    ~~ Contractor or GS they are going to look at experience. He will def. have the sub experience, but not as an officer. Thus, his pay scale and career options will not be competitive with the sub officers typically. Financially it is now a double whammy...less retirement pay and less 2nd career pay.

    I am not trying to dissuade you or him at all. I am trying to say that in my experience as a military spouse and now a retired O5 working GS, you will never become a millionaire in the military, and since he has yet to live the life on a sub or a carrier or anything in USN, don't pigeon hole yourself because money will matter when he has to start paying the bills, more so when he gets married and has kids with a mtg and car pmts.
    ~ My DS had no student loans, but his wife does. She works, but now they are expecting a baby. She will be able to stay at home with the baby because he will be an O3 in July. See above regarding pay differential.

    It is great to be altruistic, and go for that dream career. Yet, it is different when you live the life. He might turn in 4 yrs if USN allows him to leave and enlist and say, Dang, I spend my days taking orders from an officer living in officer quarters while I hot rack making thousands of $$$, while both of us have college degrees...maybe I should have gone SWO, done 4 yrs and hit the door. Or asked for Educational Delay (ED) as an NROTC mid and opened another door.

    Just my 0.019976 cents, with that and $2.07 you could buy a small coffee at Starbucks.
     
  4. NavyNOLA

    NavyNOLA Member

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    These kinds of questions are disappointing and make me question a person's critical thinking.....

    Sure it's allowed. You can Drop on Request up to the time of commissioning. As of this year, if you DOR during your senior year, active enlisted service will be the primary mode of recoupment (vice just making the kid pay it back); they'll tell you they'll waive the debt after 2 years of AES, but good luck finding an enlisted service contract with less than a 4 year obligation today.

    Let's look at the bigger picture- at the point of service ASSIGNMENT (SEP/OCT senior year), you are about 80% of the way to a college degree and a commission. Regardless of the community assigned, you'll be an officer and you'll lead Sailors. If you didn't get Nuke, it's either because you didn't get screened (grades/GPA not strong enough), the Admiral didn't like you in the interview, or you weren't medically qualified. With all that in your mind, is the intelligent course of action to throw away everything that you've been working towards for nearly four years? This kind of thinking concerns me. Oh and if you drop out of NROTC and enlist, you're not going to make your goal of becoming a "sub officer" anyways, as you'll be enlisted. Find me the sub CO that recommends an enlisted Nuke, who DORed from NROTC during their senior, for a commssioning program (like STA-21), and I'll give you a pet unicorn.

    Here's another nugget for you- you're not going to get everything you want in the Navy. It's not just about service assignment- you won't always get stationed where you want to be, you won't always get the billet you request, you won't always be able to take your family everywhere you go, etc......

    Some folks may find this response a bit harsh, but it's a very healthy dose of reality for the young people (and their parents) browsing this board. Service over Self.
     
  5. AROTC-dad

    AROTC-dad Just a dad

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    Just a great post by @NavyNOLA. Service over self hits the nail on the head.
     
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  6. Wannabe32

    Wannabe32 Member

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    Thank you for the responses! My goal is to 1.) serve on a sub 2.) be an officer. For too many reasons to explain over computer, I will always regret not completing my goal of serving on a sub. Fortunately, these goals are NOT mutually exclusive (why Im in NROTC now anyways). If November of first class year rolls around I do not get the opportunity to try for my dream as an officer, I would rather enlist (preferably with a ship date past May so I could finish college) and go the enlisted route. Hopefully go OCS a few years down the road too. Hopefully this makes sense.
     
  7. noketchup

    noketchup Member

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    That OCS plan could fail if the Navy cuts the amount of slots available at the time you apply.
     
  8. AROTC-dad

    AROTC-dad Just a dad

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    My gosh, even if the needs of the Navy require you to start as a SWO, the opportunity to transfer to subs could occur given a job well done, right?

    I gotta believe that being a SWO would still give you a foundation that would bw a better opportunity for subs than going enlisted?
     
  9. 5Day

    5Day Member

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    I find it hard to believe that you would prefer to be enlisted on a sub rather than an officer on a ship. Take advantage of your summer cruise to see if that doesn't change your priorities. Consider the opportunities you will have as a officer (responsibility, pay, leadership, career development, etc) vs. the opportunities as enlisted. IMHO it is a no brainer decision.
     
  10. Capt MJ

    Capt MJ Member

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    While nothing is ever etched entirely in stone, it would be very unlikely for this to occur. Lateral transfers to another warfare community from SWO usually can only occur after SWO qualification is obtained and first sea duty completed, and an outstanding performance record. Trying to go from SWO to Subs, completing a two-year nuke power pipeline (little overlap with SWO knowledge) then arriving at a sub significantly behind (years) peers of the same rank and having to start the process of sub warfare quals - just unlikely. If a sub aspirant hadn't gotten the nod the first time around to go subs, for academic or interview or other reasons, that will be considered again, regardless of SWO success. The needs of the Navy will prevail: transfers between communities are allowed when the gaining community needs to plus up in a certain year group (commissioning year) to maintain promotion numbers AND the losing community can afford to lose a body in a particular year group.

    I only comment on this so a realistic picture is painted of this particular route. Planets, stars and asteroids would have to align just right. Unusual things do happen. We had a USNA sponsor mid graduate and go Navy air. He really wanted jets, but despite being #2 in his section, got helos, as only 1 jet slot was available at that time. He was disappointed but determined to be positive. Right before he was supposed to report for helo training, the Marines put out a notice they were short in jet pilots in their pipeline, had a dozen open slots, apply if interested. He applied, beat out several dozen candidates, got the slot. He was inter-service transferred to Marines, completed flight training, went to TBS afterward with his dozen similar former Navy classmates. He is a happy jet pilot today and an "accidental" but proud Marine. As I said, stars, planets and asteroids have to align, but sometimes, they do.

    If OP does decide to try the enlisted route instead of going SWO, if sub officer is not offered, after due diligence in fact-finding with primary sources as to what's allowable and possible, he/she will definitely need the college degree for a shot at OCS. OCS is the variable intake valve for accessions in any given year, classing up as many sections are needed to fill out commissioning year group if SA, ROTC, other enlisted commissioning programs, don't deliver enough bodies into the pipeline. Once that need is met, OCS valve closes. The NUPOC program actively recruits the best and the brightest from top collegiate engineering programs.

    The OP is going to do what he/she is going to do, let us hope after he/she has done a complete comparative analysis using facts and not completely a collection of .02 inputs. If OP is single-mindedly set on sub officer and manages to take a roundabout unorthodox route to get there, and succeeds, that will be a great story to tell. If OP fails, but learns something along the way about handling disappointment, finding open windows when doors close, moving on, that is also good.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  11. md403

    md403 Member

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    to OP, if still want to go SUBS and want more info about NUPOC you need to check out the following https://nupocaccessions.blogspot.com/ This site has more infoconcerning the program, various descriptions, pipeline syllabus SWO/SUBS/NRE/Instructors and benefits. It was put together by LT. Linville, a Nuclear Officer Accessions Manager. For both my older twin brother and myself, after being denied from USNA and coming across this info (NUPOC), we both feel that we will nail everything and get accepted into the program and still come up a head of our friends who went to USNA/ROTC via higher pay, retirement clock started from day 1 (accepted/sworn into NUPOC via reserves), time counts toward both leave and GI Bill and more info via other links. For us, this a great program and might not be for others, but do go a head and check it out.
     
  12. USMAROTCFamily

    USMAROTCFamily Member

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    A Midshipman at my DS's college did not get selected for what he had requested (BUD/S) and dropped NROTC (was not on scholarship). He graduated from college and then enlisted. Frankly, I don't know why anybody would ever want to do this, but I know everybody's mind works in different ways.
     
  13. Sled

    Sled Member

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    Couldn't agree more. Personally the financial difference is enough information to make the decision for me. Beyond this information if you are in ROTC your end goal should be to be an officer and not simply chase the job. I see it as if you don't get your dream job you can always do your 4 yrs and get out instead of enlisting.
     

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