Law School after USNA/service?

[josieallred]

Good morning,

Current NAPster here trying to learn more about how civilian careers work after the military. Its been a long-time dream of mine to go to law school, and I have been planning on being a lawyer after my service. I know this is subject to change- lots of people get to USNA/out in the fleet and change their minds. I just had some questions about how getting into law school works after the Academy. For example, what GPA out of the Academy could get you into a good law school, should you take classes still during your service so they can see you are still continuing your education, etc?

 

[A1Janitor]

My son had the same dream. He gave it up … looking forward to a career in engineering.

When his service is done, he might consider law school on the GI bill - which based on our research was the best path.

We have no doubt his academic record in high school and at USNA, coupled with a master degree in engineering, will be sufficient to get into a top law school.

I suspect he won’t go after a solid career.

 

[Capt MJ]

Good morning,

Current NAPster here trying to learn more about how civilian careers work after the military. Its been a long-time dream of mine to go to law school, and I have been planning on being a lawyer after my service. I know this is subject to change- lots of people get to USNA/out in the fleet and change their minds. I just had some questions about how getting into law school works after the Academy. For example, what GPA out of the Academy could get you into a good law school, should you take classes still during your service so they can see you are still continuing your education, etc?

It’s good to look ahead at career possibilities post-service, but at the same time be open and mindful of the journey you are on. Your path will unfold before you in unexpected ways. You may separate after 5-8 years or retire after 30 and go to your next career. You have no idea what life will throw at you.

After you do your obligated service after USNA, and then an additional 36 months, you are eligible for 100% of the generous veterans educational benefit. If you don’t do 36 months, it’s pro-rated with lesser percentages.

Post-9/11 GI Bill (Chapter 33) | Veterans Affairs

The Post-9/11 GI Bill (Chapter 33) helps you pay for school or job training. If you’ve served on active duty after September 10, 2001, you may qualify for the Post-9/11 GI Bill (Chapter 33). Find out if you can get this education benefit.

www.va.gov

Do well at USNA in a major you enjoy. Do well in your commissioned officer path. If going to law school is still your dream, research prep courses once you have identified your separation date. Law and other grad schools appreciate veteran applicants who have life experience and maturity.

Or you could be like one of my friends, a Navy captain who retired at 30 years - not quite teetering at grave’s edge - who went to a name-brand law school after that and is now an attorney handling veteran appeal cases.

If you had any desire to be a Navy JAG, you can’t go to law school right out of USNA but you can go into a warfare specialty and later apply for lateral transfer to the Law Education Program (LEP). LEP is highly competitive. You have to have top undergrad grades and be a top-rated junior officer in your warfare specialty with a strong endorsement from your CO. The Navy gets most of its lawyers through direct commissioning programs out of civilian law schools, so LEP is just a handful each year.

Navy Lawyers - Law Education Program | U.S. Navy JAG Corps

The Navy Judge Advocate General’s Corps provides solutions, from a military perspective, to legal issues involving military operations, organization, and personnel, wherever and whenever such solutions are required, with primary focus on operations, accountability, Sailor legal readiness, and...

www.jag.navy.mil

You have another 60-80 years on the planet. There is time.

 

[OldRetSWO]

Good morning,

Current NAPster here trying to learn more about how civilian careers work after the military. Its been a long-time dream of mine to go to law school, and I have been planning on being a lawyer after my service. I know this is subject to change- lots of people get to USNA/out in the fleet and change their minds. I just had some questions about how getting into law school works after the Academy. For example, what GPA out of the Academy could get you into a good law school, should you take classes still during your service so they can see you are still continuing your education, etc?

Off the top of my head, I can name two USNA class/companymates who went to law school AFTER serving as Navy Pilots. One who did 20 yrs active first and the other transferred to reserves at which point each went to law school. Both ended up as Commanders and both practiced law after graduating law school. I don't have specific GPAs on either but they were far from Supe's list and one or both were below me grade wise (low 2.7's) when we graduated.
As has already been said, its a lot more about what you do AS AN OFFICER and on the LSAT test than your specific GPA at USNA.
I'll add a non-USNA example because I know it well. My "road roommate" in the Reserves for four years on a Carrier Battlegroup Staff was an F-14 pilot who went to Harvard on an Ice Hockey scholarship. I know that his grades were mediocre at best as an undergrad and after transferring to the Reserves, could not get into Harvard law but instead went to Boston College law and did well there and afterward. Again, its not really much about your undergrad grades in this instance.

 

[franknd]

For example, what GPA out of the Academy could get you into a good law school, should you take classes still during your service so they can see you are still continuing your education, etc?

GPA is only half the battle. The LSAT is the other half. (And I wouldn't pay much attention to, in case you have been, the noise about law schools eliminating the LSAT requirement. Whether or not it remains a "requirement," it will still be used because it's as good a predictor as there is regarding law school success and bar passage.) And what do you mean by "a good law school"? If you mean like "Top 14," then I'd guess the bidding would start at 3.5 considering it's a service academy and you would be applying with considerable experience as a commissioned officer. By way of comparison, the median entering GPA at Cornell Law, which is a lower half Top 14 school, is 3.87. Now if you mean a good regional law school, that could be different. They might be considerably more forgiving on grades and LSAT.

I wouldn't worry at all about continuing education during your service time. That's a non-factor.

Disclosure: I'm a former Army officer (ROTC grad) who went to law school after active duty. I've been a lawyer for 28 years.

 

[justdoit19]

I wonder why law school is so popular? I know many that went that route after their service.

 

[ChatterMom2]

We know a USNA grad who went on to become a lawyer. He did his twenty and then got out. While he was on active duty, married, and with a family he was taking night classes working on that law degree. He's been a lawyer for close to 40 years. Retired from that a few years back. Most recently (the last couple of years) he got a (masters degree?) in microbiology. This man is amazing. He is always learning and helping others. He is such an interesting person and his wife is the sweetest and nicest lady ever.

 

[usna1985]

I did it. Feel free to PM me.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

I, and many classmates (including '85 above) have done it very successfully. There have been many different routes to law school among us, but there is probably one common theme -- be the best you can be in every endeavor and challenge you meet along the path. Don't go into USNA thinking you are going to be a lawyer -- go in thinking you are going to be the best Midshipman, the best Junior Officer, and the best SWO/AVIATIOR/Nuke?Marine you can be...then start thinking about what you are going to be when you grow up (including keeping an open mind about staying in the Navy).

Trying to guess what GPA will get you into Law School is a a waste of time ....your objective should be to get the highest GPA (and also the best LSAT) you can get , then apply to the best law school you can get into, or that helps you reach your objective as a lawyer (that is a whole different discussion -- going to BIGLAW in a big city isn't necessarily the end all; I have been very satisfied and successful working with a well know regional law firm).

The Navy Law Education Program (LEP) mentioned by CAPT MJ is great ...Navy will send you to law school, full pay and allowances in return for 2 or 3 for one service commitment. It's very competitive -- I applied long ago, and was selected second alternate -- so close but yet so far. I often wonder how things would have been different if I got it...

 

[franknd]

Trying to guess what GPA will get you into Law School is a a waste of time ....your objective should be to get the highest GPA (and also the best LSAT) you can get , then apply to the best law school you can get into, or that helps you reach your objective as a lawyer

I agree with the gist of your post, but I'm not sure I completely agree with this passage. If I were even thinking about law school, I'd consider taking the LSAT at the earliest possible time to potentially gauge my aptitude for law. Say OP takes it her senior year and gets a 150? That might be a sign that other endeavors might be more fruitful down the road. Conversely, if OP were to get a 170, well, doors will likely be open when the time comes.

 

[A1Janitor]

I agree with the gist of your post, but I'm not sure I completely agree with this passage. If I were even thinking about law school, I'd consider taking the LSAT at the earliest possible time to potentially gauge my aptitude for law. Say OP takes it her senior year and gets a 150? That might be a sign that other endeavors might be more fruitful down the road. Conversely, if OP were to get a 170, well, doors will likely be open when the time comes.

I suspect there isn’t a right answer for everyone.

My son is confident he would ace the LSAT whenever he takes it with proper preparation.

I also don’t think the LSAT measures aptitude in law per se. There are many good lawyers with aptitude for law that got average LSATs. It just means they might not go to a tier 1 law school.

I can learn calculus at a community college as well as I can learn calculus at Harvard.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

If I were even thinking about law school, I'd consider taking the LSAT at the earliest possible time to potentially gauge my aptitude for law. Say OP takes it her senior year and gets a 150? That might be a sign that other endeavors might be more fruitful down the road. Conversely, if OP were to get a 170, well, doors will likely be open when the time comes.

No problem taking the test just to see where you stand.. my point was that nobody should shoot for a 3. whatever GPA just because they have law school aspirations. They should shoot for whatever they can get, and work the problem for that.

I also don’t think the LSAT measures aptitude in law per se. There are many good lawyers with aptitude for law that got average LSATs. It just means they might not go to a tier 1 law school.

>Absolutely true -- just like many people have gone on to success with less than perfect ACT/SAT. Good or bad, that is what law schools use to fill their class (and claim bragging rights to rankings).

IMHO , a lot of the law school rankings are pure BS (including the school I went to, it was top 20 at the time, now in the mid 20's). There is certainly a top tier (Top 10, maybe 14-15 as suggested above) that give you a leg up if you want to be a Supreme Court clerk, BIGLAW , or a law professor. Beyond that, the differences between 15 and 40-50 are pretty negligible --all have good opportunities on a regional basis. Finally, there is a lower tier -- no competitive admission, etc. Even from that tier, the top students are often very bright and do well. Back in the day when I did the recruiting/interview for my firm , our hiring standard was essentially Top 50% from Tier 1, Top 30% from Tier 2, and Top 10% from Tier 3. (We have a Tier 3 school that has turned out a lot of good lawyers).

 

[franknd]

I suspect there isn’t a right answer for everyone.

My son is confident he would ace the LSAT whenever he takes it with proper preparation.

I also don’t think the LSAT measures aptitude in law per se. There are many good lawyers with aptitude for law that got average LSATs. It just means they might not go to a tier 1 law school.

I can learn calculus at a community college as well as I can learn calculus at Harvard.

Of course, to each his own. But law school is, in most cases, a substantial financial investment; so going in with the prospect of it paying off financially is important IMO.

As for the LSAT, it is an aptitude test. One can (and should) familiarize oneself with the types of questions that are on it, but beyond that there is no way to "study" for it. It's not a test of substantive knowledge. In fact, it is still considered a qualifying test for "IQ" purposes.

Finally, no dispute about CC v. Harvard. But law is still, for better or worse, a highly hierarchical profession, particularly in first jobs. Anyone who doesn't understand that, at least in terms of financial investment, is doing himself a disservice.

 

[franknd]

Back in the day when I did the recruiting/interview for my firm , our hiring standard was essentially Top 50% from Tier 1, Top 30% from Tier 2, and Top 10% from Tier 3. (We have a Tier 3 school that has turned out a lot of good lawyers).

Right, and that "bottom 50%" from Tier 1, "bottom 70%" from Tier 2, and "bottom 90%" from Tier 3 = a whole lot of lawyers who went in thinking that they were going to work for your firm after they borrowed $100k+, only to find out that they couldn't get an interview.

 

[A1Janitor]

Of course, to each his own. But law school is, in most cases, a substantial financial investment; so going in with the prospect of it paying off financially is important IMO.

As for the LSAT, it is an aptitude test. One can (and should) familiarize oneself with the types of questions that are on it, but beyond that there is no way to "study" for it. It's not a test of substantive knowledge. In fact, it is still considered a qualifying test for "IQ" purposes.

Finally, no dispute about CC v. Harvard. But law is still, for better or worse, a highly hierarchical profession, particularly in first jobs. Anyone who doesn't understand that, at least in terms of financial investment, is doing himself a disservice.

My son has put his law school ambitions to the back burner - he is excited to start his career with the navy. I would be surprised with the various opportunities in front of him if he actually goes to law school. His next step will be a masters degree in engineering.

As for the money, he would wait until he has GI benefits.

My son scored nearly perfect on the SAT. He is a good teat taker. He did take a prep course which was extremely beneficial.

As for law schools - I can show you a young attorney from a low tier school that makes 400k a year. And a high tier lawyer from an Ivy that makes little.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

Right, and that "bottom 50%" from Tier 1, "bottom 70%" from Tier 2, and "bottom 90%" from Tier 3 = a whole lot of lawyers who went in thinking that they were going to work for your firm after they borrowed $100k+, only to find out that they couldn't get an interview.

Agree 100%, but that goes back to my original premise --performance opens doors and pays off. I'm not saying that there aren't some really good kids in that group you describe...and we probably passed on some really good lawyers (I know of one for certain ... son of one our now deceased partners, really great kid but was below 50% at that good tier 3 school... our Firm drew a hard line, and he has gone on and done very well at another Firm in the state)

As for law schools - I can show you a young attorney from a low tier school that makes 400k a year. And a high tier lawyer from an Ivy that makes little.

Of course...but if you look at the numbers, far more go to Tier 1 schools and make it to BIGLAW (and big pay) than go to lower Tier schools. There are a lot of young attorneys struggling to make that loan payment because they didn't understand the cost/benefit of attending law school.

 

[franknd]

As for law schools - I can show you a young attorney from a low tier school that makes 400k a year. And a high tier lawyer from an Ivy that makes little.

?? Again, no dispute. Relying on exceptions, though, generally isn't a wise plan.

In any event, it sounds like your son will do fine no matter what. And in his situation, I'll add that having an engineering background changes the equation for him somewhat if he intends to parlay that into a law practice. That would create demand for him that most others won't have.

 

[MidCakePa]

I didn’t go to law school (went the B-school route instead) but I do love this long-ago quote:

A students become professors.
B students become judges.
C students become attorneys.

How true it is today, I don’t know. Of course, YMMV.

 

[Banshee Mom]

I am not a lawyer but had a front row seat to when eldest DD was applying . She did very well on the LSAT (I would strongly recommend a prep class ) and was accepted to not necessarily top tier schools but solid ones . She was passionate that she wanted to practice public interest law and volunteered as a rape crisis counselor and interned at both the Manhattan DA and Brooklyn DA offices during law school . She went to the law school that offered her the best scholarship but will still have significant debt when she graduates in May . Law encompasses different disciplines and she considers advocacy her life’s work, I have so much respect for that but doubt she will ever be earning 400 grand a year. I also watched how much work it was and this was a kid that graduated undergrad magna cum laude from a well respected university while working two jobs and playing rugby . She hated law school and said the work level was insane at times . Many 1L students in her class dropped out . Fortunately she does have a job already lined up but many of her fellow 3 L students do not . It’s not an easy road .

 

[Old Navy BGO]

I also watched how much work it was and this was a kid that graduated undergrad magna cum laude from a well respected university while working two jobs and playing rugby . She hated law school and said the work level was insane at times . Many 1L students in her class dropped out .

A different perspective ...I've never considered myself a scholar, just a hard working Midwestern kid that has done pretty well. I often tell people that the 2 1/2 years I spent in law school (I did an an accelerated program) was the easiest job I ever had. After coming from the Navy, when pressure was constant and nothing ever went as planned on Friday afternoon, it was an environment when they told you on day 1 what was expected of you 16 weeks later. If you work steadily, and are already practiced at managing your time, law school isn't that bad.

Now just wait until you get out and practice ...when you have clients and senior partners all wanting a piece of you.... most business operate on a pyramid structure where each person has to answer to one boss, and supervise 5-10 people. In a law firm, you have multiple bosses, clients as well as senior partners, you have to keep happy. My philosophy has always been to try to make sure every one of those clients think that I think that they are my number 1 priority. (Say that real fast !). That approach has worked well for me ... but throw in family, non-profit Boards and BGO, and other activities, and it makes law school look like a piece of cake.