LOR for a Cadet

[Stormbird]

I am new to this website, but I am a former grad and my son goes to the Air Force Academy.

I just heard some disturbing news , and I have never heard of this before. My son, an upperclassman, said his AOC threatened the upperclassmen with LOR's for any training violation during Hell week.

Is this possible? I thought Forms 10 were what Cadets got since an LOR is in one's permanent military record. I find this very disturbing that a Cadet could make a mistake in training and have his record permanently marked.

 

[Clar]

LORs are potential discipline for Cadet misconduct and are within the AOC's authority to give. In practice, LORs on the cadet side are seldom placed in a UIF and rather stored until graduation depending on the cadet's status. There is a regulation that encompasses everything cadet discipline that plainly states that LORs can be given to cadets.

 

[Stormbird]

Well that's something new for me, it was never ever used as a disciplinary measure neither were LOC'S back in my time. It is a sad State of Affairs when Cadets that are learning to become leaders can be threatened with those kind of punitive actions.

 

[Stormbird]

I will add that the potential for abuse of this sort of disciplinary action will be ever present even amongst the amt's as I know of one Squadron where the amt had threatened a blanket LOC for the entire Squadron because a number of the members were late to formation.

 

[tornadowarning33]

Without further context, it sounds like a simple motivation tool from the AOC and AMTs. If what @Clar says is true, then paperwork within USAFA sounds similar to AETC 341s. They sound scary, taking on an almost mythic identity, but they can't really hurt you post-training. However, doing what one needs to do in order to not receive said paperwork normally makes life much easier.

 

[AFrpaso]

Overall, sounds like a scare tactic, but that being said. . .

Do you know USAFA's current definition of a "training violation"? For all we know an "LOR" may be commensurate with the offense.

Practically upon entering the USAF, enlisted airman are subject to receiving LOC/A/Rs. I think it is entirely reasonable to hold cadets to a similar if not higher standard.

 

[Clar]

Maltraining is currently defined as:
2.3.10. Maltraining. Acts of maltraining are prohibited. Maltraining is any practice not designed to meet a course training objective. Includes, but is not limited to: using abusive or excessive physical exercise; unnecessarily rearranging the property of a trainee to correct infractions; misapplication of motivational training; any practice to induce a trainee to self eliminate; making a trainee perform degrading or humiliating tasks; assigning remedial training to an entire group based on the deficiencies of an individual or a few individuals; assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency; training conducted in violation of appropriate risk management plans and/or in violation of hydration and work rest cycle.

Additionally, other things that would meet colloquially referred to as "training violations" would be acts of Hazing, Abuse, Misuse of Authority, Failing to identify critical safety factors, failure to take proper risk mitigation steps, and other violations of briefed training requirements

 

[Cerberi]

'You can make it harder, but you can't make it longer'

When the '83 Commandant saw that quote attributed to his wife on a 'poster' that included a drawing on display. I think he pretty much threatened the entire class with UCMJ Court Martial action.

Needless to say - no one was court martialed

 

[Cerberi]

Maltraining is currently defined as:
2.3.10. Maltraining. Acts of maltraining are prohibited. Maltraining is any practice not designed to meet a course training objective. Includes, but is not limited to: using abusive or excessive physical exercise; unnecessarily rearranging the property of a trainee to correct infractions; misapplication of motivational training; any practice to induce a trainee to self eliminate; making a trainee perform degrading or humiliating tasks; assigning remedial training to an entire group based on the deficiencies of an individual or a few individuals; assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency; training conducted in violation of appropriate risk management plans and/or in violation of hydration and work rest cycle.

Additionally, other things that would meet colloquially referred to as "training violations" would be acts of Hazing, Abuse, Misuse of Authority, Failing to identify critical safety factors, failure to take proper risk mitigation steps, and other violations of briefed training requirements

Maltraining wasn't a term I was familiar with, but if you're curious why old time USAFA grads wonder what the program is about nowadays - having the word 'Maltraining' in the vocabulary certainly would raise some eyebrows.

 

[AFrpaso]

Maltraining is currently defined as:
2.3.10. Maltraining. Acts of maltraining are prohibited. Maltraining is any practice not designed to meet a course training objective. Includes, but is not limited to: using abusive or excessive physical exercise; unnecessarily rearranging the property of a trainee to correct infractions; misapplication of motivational training; any practice to induce a trainee to self eliminate; making a trainee perform degrading or humiliating tasks; assigning remedial training to an entire group based on the deficiencies of an individual or a few individuals; assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency; training conducted in violation of appropriate risk management plans and/or in violation of hydration and work rest cycle.

Additionally, other things that would meet colloquially referred to as "training violations" would be acts of Hazing, Abuse, Misuse of Authority, Failing to identify critical safety factors, failure to take proper risk mitigation steps, and other violations of briefed training requirements

So basically treat people like human beings. Seems reasonable to me.

The only part that sticks out to me is this:

assigning remedial training to an entire group based on the deficiencies of an individual or a few individuals;

Does this not happen quite frequently in BCT and training sessions? Unless I am misunderstanding the definition of "remedial training."

 

[Saranoya]

Maltraining wasn't a term I was familiar with, but if you're curious why old time USAFA grads wonder what the program is about nowadays - having the word 'Maltraining' in the vocabulary certainly would raise some eyebrows.

Do you honestly believe that most of the things defined as maltraining in that paragraph contribute to the making of good officers, let alone ‘better’ ones than can be made without those things?

 

[Cerberi]

So basically treat people like human beings. Seems reasonable to me.

The only part that sticks out to me is this:

Does this not happen quite frequently in BCT and training sessions? Unless I am misunderstanding the definition of "remedial training."

My point is not about treating people properly and with respect. My concern is the amount of legaleze involved with whoever created this terminology.

God issued 10 rules - relatively easy to understand. The Constitution is a relatively simple document as are the Bill of Rights.

During the pull-out of Afghanistan, a US trained military sniper apparently had the suicide bomber in his/her sites with enough data points to indicate a shot was warranted. The sniper asked for permission. It went up and down the chain of command and no one knew if they could authorize it. The results were not good.

Everyone was concerned what the lawyers would say after the fact.

 

[billyb]

Interesting thread. Para 2.3.10. sounds like my entire time at USMA "back in the day." I must have been thoroughly maltrained.

 

[Saranoya]

Interesting thread. Para 2.3.10. sounds like my entire time at USMA "back in the day." I must have been thoroughly maltrained.

I've served in the military, though not in the US. I was never in combat, but I frequently served in situations where lives were at stake.

Like you, I experienced some of that paragraph personally during my training. But when I entered my first operational unit, that unit's ability to complete its missions rested in large part on mutual trust and respect between its members. Both as a subordinate and as a leader, I tend to respect those who respect their underlings, even (and especially) if there is no regulation that says they have to.

Now that I am a teacher in high school, I find that the same is true of the young people I encounter in my classroom every day. They do not respect and generally don't follow those who feel the need to "show them who's boss" through various forms of abuse, as described in that paragraph on 'maltraining'. I strongly believe we are better off with than without that paragraph.

 

[billyb]

I've served in the military, though not in the US. I was never in combat, but I frequently served in situations where lives were at stake.

Like you, I experienced some of that paragraph personally during my training. But when I entered my first operational unit, that unit's ability to complete its missions rested in large part on mutual trust and respect between its members. Both as a subordinate and as a leader, I tend to respect those who respect their underlings, even (and especially) if there is no regulation that says they have to.

Now that I am a teacher in high school, I find that the same is true of the young people I encounter in my classroom every day. They do not respect and generally don't follow those who feel the need to "show them who's boss" through various forms of abuse, as described in that paragraph on 'maltraining'. I strongly believe we are better off with than without that paragraph.

I am 100% in agreement with you. The common misconception is that b/c we went thru the crucible at USMA that our leadership style would forever mimic it. That couldn't be further from the truth. I saw nothing but empathic servant leaders in my classmates once we all graduated into the "real" army; none of the browbeating leadership techniques were ever used. At USMA it was seen as a measure if you had the fortitude to stand up to prolonged stress.

 

[Tigers2023]

I am 100% in agreement with you. The common misconception is that b/c we went thru the crucible at USMA that our leadership style would forever mimic it. That couldn't be further from the truth. I saw nothing but empathic servant leaders in my classmates once we all graduated into the "real" army; none of the browbeating leadership techniques were ever used. At USMA it was seen as a measure if you had the fortitude to stand up to prolonged stress.

That's how I see it too. Going through difficult times together helps you learn how to build a cohesive team. It makes you tough and separates the tough from the quitters. Some of the most impactful people in my life were those that pushed you beyond your limits. Not your best friend at the time, but later you respected them.

 

[Stormbird]

"assigning remedial training to an entire group based on the deficiencies of an individual or a few individuals"

Kind of blows the whole credibility of the definition of "maltraining"

Agree with several posters above that despite the continuous "maltraining" I had throughout my fourth class year that was used not necessarily for punishment but usually to test my motivation to be there,
I never saw its use on lower ranking upperclassmen nor out in the active duty.

Drives me crazy when people pontificate about training issues in an environment that they've never been in. Usually the goals, standards, and objectives for such training is so outside the purview of that person's understanding, it would be better that they just not comment.

 

[Saranoya]

Drives me crazy when people pontificate about training issues in an environment that they've never been in. Usually the goals, standards, and objectives for such training is so outside the purview of that person's understanding, it would be better that they just not comment.

Should I feel implicated by this statement? .

For whatever it's worth: I am in fact a graduate of a service academy (not one in the US). While there, I was subjected to some of what is being described above as 'maltraining'. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the quality of my education suffered significantly due to this, nor was I in any way permanently 'damaged' by it. But at the same time, I do think that if operational units can and do function well without ever employing any of the tactics described here as 'maltraining' (as I know from experience they can, and do), boot camp and the service academies probably can, and should, as well.

That being said, regarding the OP's original question: like some of the previous commenters, I see no reason for there to be a double standard regarding LOR's for enlisted personnel (in training), versus (future) officers. So regardless of whether 'mailtraining' should be considered a reason to write someone up (I'd say yes to that), age and/or not yet having commissioned should be no reason NOT to issue en LOR for unacceptable behavior. If anything, (future) officers should be held to a higher standard than enlisted at the same age / approximate leve lof experience, IMO.