Math 141 and 142 Information for Admitted Student

Q

Qdog

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My DS earned an appointment on Sunday. He also has a 4-year AROTC scholarship to UNC-Chapel Hill. USAFA has been the first choice for awhile, but he wasn't expecting to get in because a relatively low Math ACT/SAT score despite near perfect Verbal. He is shocked in a good way.

He did have a very strong package as far as we could tell, despite the Math ACT/SAT. So I would say to all of you out there that the academy truly looks at the whole person.

He is on the fence due to concerns about 141 and 142 (calc I and II) and handling the math overall. He's in AP physics right now and getting an A but it is algebra based. He started AP calc but switched to AP Stat because it was very difficult and the teacher was not good and notorious for being a very hard grader (handing out Ds and Cs to kids that have As in every other math/sci class at the school. Seems like it was the right call, but coming in not having taken calc worries him.

He said today that he would accept if he was stronger in math and wants to go but he's worried about getting there and just not being able to hack it and academic disaster ensuing as a result. He's been told by a grad that the academic support is robust compared to other universities and professors are accessible. He realizes that they wouldn't have accepted him if they didn't think you could do it. That said he's trying to be realistic about "just muscling through." Obviously, there will be a lot of math superstars at USAFA but no one probably has time to support anyone but themselves. He plans to major in history and knows that social sciences will be a breeze.

Any advice from experiences with your DS/DD or firsthand would be greatly appreciated to help him make the decision. He and I both have utilized these forums and are grateful. Thank you.
 
He will be fine. He wouldn’t have earned an appointment if USAFA didn’t think he could make it. There is tons of help at SAs for extra instruction, peer tutoring and academic centers. Obviously college academics is a jump from high school and many students have to adjust to studying, prioritizing, etc. He knows this can be a challenging course for him and that will allow him to get help early, do not wait until he is in trouble. Good luck to your DS!
 
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Qdog said:
My DS earned an appointment on Sunday. He also has a 4-year AROTC scholarship to UNC-Chapel Hill. USAFA has been the first choice for awhile, but he wasn't expecting to get in because a relatively low Math ACT/SAT score despite near perfect Verbal. He is shocked in a good way.

He did have a very strong package as far as we could tell, despite the Math ACT/SAT. So I would say to all of you out there that the academy truly looks at the whole person.

He is on the fence due to concerns about 141 and 142 (calc I and II) and handling the math overall. He's in AP physics right now and getting an A but it is algebra based. He started AP calc but switched to AP Stat because it was very difficult and the teacher was not good and notorious for being a very hard grader (handing out Ds and Cs to kids that have As in every other math/sci class at the school. Seems like it was the right call, but coming in not having taken calc worries him.

He said today that he would accept if he was stronger in math and wants to go but he's worried about getting there and just not being able to hack it and academic disaster ensuing as a result. He's been told by a grad that the academic support is robust compared to other universities and professors are accessible. He realizes that they wouldn't have accepted him if they didn't think you could do it. That said he's trying to be realistic about "just muscling through." Obviously, there will be a lot of math superstars at USAFA but no one probably has time to support anyone but themselves. He plans to major in history and knows that social sciences will be a breeze.

Any advice from experiences with your DS/DD or firsthand would be greatly appreciated to help him make the decision. He and I both have utilized these forums and are grateful. Thank you.
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I have firsthand experience which though dated, is applicable here. I graduated from a below average high school without having taken any calculus or actually, any AP courses. Over the years since then I've found that even the top academic kids all struggled with college level classes, especially the STEM majors. When I started at USNA, they gave us a math placement test and I was deemed to be not ready for Calculus so they placed me in Math 005 as opposed to 101 (lowest level of Calc). This was a 4 credit course that did not "count" toward graduation requirements as it was deemed to be remedial. I got a B in that class (4 credits!) which helped my first semester GPA quite a bit and then did fine in the three required Calc classes that followed. It turned out to be not much of a problem other than having to either overload a semester later or go to summer school to accommodate the added class that I took. I chose summer school and that was pretty relaxed and turned out well.
Bottom Line: Don't stress about the math class, it is not something that is unknown to the Service Academies as not all high schools give great preparation.
 
Qdog said:
My DS earned an appointment on Sunday. He also has a 4-year AROTC scholarship to UNC-Chapel Hill. USAFA has been the first choice for awhile, but he wasn't expecting to get in because a relatively low Math ACT/SAT score despite near perfect Verbal. He is shocked in a good way.

He did have a very strong package as far as we could tell, despite the Math ACT/SAT. So I would say to all of you out there that the academy truly looks at the whole person.

He is on the fence due to concerns about 141 and 142 (calc I and II) and handling the math overall. He's in AP physics right now and getting an A but it is algebra based. He started AP calc but switched to AP Stat because it was very difficult and the teacher was not good and notorious for being a very hard grader (handing out Ds and Cs to kids that have As in every other math/sci class at the school. Seems like it was the right call, but coming in not having taken calc worries him.

He said today that he would accept if he was stronger in math and wants to go but he's worried about getting there and just not being able to hack it and academic disaster ensuing as a result. He's been told by a grad that the academic support is robust compared to other universities and professors are accessible. He realizes that they wouldn't have accepted him if they didn't think you could do it. That said he's trying to be realistic about "just muscling through." Obviously, there will be a lot of math superstars at USAFA but no one probably has time to support anyone but themselves. He plans to major in history and knows that social sciences will be a breeze.

Any advice from experiences with your DS/DD or firsthand would be greatly appreciated to help him make the decision. He and I both have utilized these forums and are grateful. Thank you.
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Same exact situation though I attend the prep school because of my math. I'm currently taking cal at a college as part of my requirements. I had a B in AP physics btw.

So how am I doing? With 4 classes total and only basis in pre-cal, I have an A in math. There's always office hours at USAFA and the teaching is small so it's more personal. Remember we'll do placement tests to see where we're at. He'll be fine. Can't wait to meet him on I-day!
 
This is very very helpful. Thank you! Just to clarify as well. He's taken numerous AP classes and done well - AP Environmental, APUSH, AP Euro, AP Lang, AP Gov, AP World, etc., done well, is a tutor in AP US History, and scored a 31 Sci, and 36 Verbal, and 780 SAT Verbal so again, feel confident Social Science, writing, etc, will be very manageable, allowing him to focus on extra time for support on Math if he can get it.

He is super fit and maxed the CFA and very excited about the PT, military stuff, loves flight, etc. So, again, it's just the math that has him fence sitting.

Trying to help him know whether or not he is setting himself up for failure.
 
Qdog said:
This is very very helpful. Thank you! Just to clarify as well. He's taken numerous AP classes and done well - AP Environmental, APUSH, AP Euro, AP Lang, AP Gov, AP World, etc., done well, is a tutor in AP US History, and scored a 31 Sci, and 36 Verbal, and 780 SAT Verbal so again, feel confident Social Science, writing, etc, will be very manageable, allowing him to focus on extra time for support on Math if he can get it.

He is super fit and maxed the CFA and very excited about the PT, military stuff, loves flight, etc. So, again, it's just the math that has him fence sitting.

Trying to help him know whether or not he is setting himself up for failure.
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It sounds like he will be fine. If he is struggling in a class he can get EI (extra instruction) with his instructor which is basically a one-on-one tutoring session. All you have to do is ask your teacher and they are super nice about setting up a time that works with your schedule. It is super beneficial and I would highly recommend it.
 
Hi, my name is @shiner and I am a survivor of USAFA Math. @Qdog - trust the system and do not let this detail prevent your DS from accepting the appointment. Placement exam(s) are taken during BCT when you are at your academic peak (sarcasm). Students who do not perform well on the math placement exam are actually entered into Math 130 - Basic Math. This is not a widely known nugget of wisdom, but it is a safety net. There are many things like this at SA to position a student for success. Every student enters at a different starting point and it is not always math rockstar.

I tested into Math 130. Initially, it was a little embarrassing, but I knew it was where I needed to be. Consider it a foundations class that serves as a solid base of pre-calc material. Once complete, you move into Math 141 (Calc 1) and then Math 142 (Calc 2). These are one class per semester and not layered on top of one another.

Your DS should enter into it assuming he will need to go to as much extra instruction as possible. This may mean participation in other things like clubs or sports needs to be more carefully managed. I can say that USAFA is not like State U with 400 students in a freshman math class. There will be ~23. This low student-to-teacher ratio is excellent in subjects that we struggle in because of the amount of opportunity for extra engagement. I say opportunity because it is there if you want it, but not everyone takes advantage of it.

I fell in love with computers at USAFA and literally had the highest grade in my comp sci 110 intro programming class but chose not to go into comp sci as a major because it required 1 additional math class. After a Math 130 grade of C, Math 141 C-, and Math 142 D.... the trajectory was clear and it showed I needed to avoid taking that additional math class! Today, I lead a team of programmers - so you can still get to the same place via another path.

At a civilian school, the engine is built knowing students are replaceable - someone can transfer in tomorrow and fill that seat. At a SA however, the engine knows each student can never be replaced by another and this creates an environment where everyone on staff is laser focused on helping students who put in the work succeed. The vetting process is so extensive, each school is confident that appointees have the aptitude to succeed. Some will not, but there are many factors that could contribute to that outcome. The vast majority of students will struggle in some areas and excel in others.

Academics are hard, but not impossible. From one survivor to a future survivor - good luck! It's about to get fun.

For more info on Math 130 - https://www.usafa.edu/app/uploads/COI.pdf
 
Like @OldRetSWO said, there is a lower math class he can take (pre-calc). I think it is Math 131 at USAFA. All the same points apply WRT the class. The placement test will determine which level is best. He should go into whichever math class he tests into with the mindset that he needs to master the material as it will be used in future classes. He can do it. EI and fellow-cadet help are HUGE benefits of an academy. Use them early and often.

I spent a lot of my cadet career tutoring (ie. helping with homework) my less math-adept classmates in math concepts for various classes...physics, chem, thermo. The goal was for all of us to graduate and that was my contribution. Most of us were eager to help our classmates edit papers, work through homework, train for the PFT, etc. In my case, I learned the material better that way and it was a good way to study while helping out a classmate.
 
The calc classes are changing. My DS is in Calc 2 and he is in the "experimental soon to be normal" class which focuses on programming in a specific math language versus the traditional calc classes. He doesn't care for it, but has an A. He had IB HL math in high school.
 
T-37IP said:
The calc classes are changing. My DS is in Calc 2 and he is in the "experimental soon to be normal" class which focuses on programming in a specific math language versus the traditional calc classes. He doesn't care for it, but has an A. He had IB HL math in high school.
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Yes T-371P I also heard that the Calc classes were changing and was hoping that it would be a better fit, which if it's more practical it should be.
 
Son graduated from USAFA in 2018. He had a good math ACT score but only pre-calc in high school. He ended up with an A and a B in the calc courses. I think it all comes down to working hard and getting help when needed.
 
To chime in, they are likely switching the 141/142 curriculum next year. I am in the experimental version of the class now and the focus is much less on doing a bunch of calculus stuff, and more on how you apply the material, with specific specialization in computing applications. As numerous others have said EI is an option as well, most cadets that are proactive about seeking help will pass the class with at least a C+, where cadets sometimes find themselves trapped is not keeping up and seeking help when they need it.
 
I can't speak about the new curriculum they are switching to but...

From my personal experience taking Calc I & II at a community college, USAFA's curriculum is substantially easier in many ways. USAFA and my CC used the same textbooks for both and it was very clear USAFA tended to simplify concepts to what you realistically needed to know and then how to apply the concepts to real-world scenarios. I would pull up notes from my old calc class and notice they skip entire sections from chapters to prioritize certain concepts. So, if any the other schools he is interested in require calc as a core, they are probably the same level of difficulty if not harder.

The nice part about USAFA is 141/142 are grad requirements and therefore almost every freshman will take 141 in the Fall and 142 in the Spring. This means it will be easy to find help from classmates if he chooses. EI is also an extremely useful resource; I would not have survived math as well as I did without some help from professors outside of class, sometimes late at night.

Bottom line: I would recommend for your son to look big picture at USAFA academics. Yes, it is possible he may struggle with math at certain points in the year but it is by no means impossible. I firmly believe an A or minimally a B is attainable by every cadet who takes math here if they commit and work hard. However, it is important to realize USAFA is a very stem-focused school and he will definitely use at the very least calculus principles in other classes during his time there (engr mech, physics, aero, astro, etc). So I would say it is more important to ask him whether or not he wants to commit to a STEM school or not, rather than committing to taking 141/142.
 
On thing they really advertise about all the service academies is how accessable the teachers are and how small the classes are. After a recent West Point visit, I saw this in action and experienced the discussion based instruction and how the cadets are part of the learning and highly encouraged to ask questions. It seemed the professors knew everyone's names and sincerely cared about them. I assume USAFA is the same. Just my 2 cents.
 
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