Million Student March

My kids went to private High Schools and I still paid their tuitions and my town taxes which supported our local schools. I also paid for Joe's kids and am still paying. More technical schools at the high school level would be a great idea. A good plumber or electrician can probably make more than a graduate BS. As I have said it before they did it better on Broadway "Can You Hear The People Sing" from "les Miserables" they were students also.
 
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@cb7893: A credit hour in 1979 at MSU was 24.50, adjusted for inflation that is 79.23 in today dollars. One credit hour today costs 428.75.

Produce a credible source for a similar increase in aid and I'll gladly yield the point.
 
More technical schools at the high school level would be a great idea. A good plumber or electrician can probably make more than a graduate BS.
I just wrote a big check to my plumber on Tuesday so I think you are right.

My plumber and electrician are incredibly skilled and I am fortunate to have them. Two of the smartest people I know!
 
Free High Schools?, that would be great....my property taxes would sure be a whole lot lower if that were the case.
My kids went to private High Schools and I still paid their tuitions and my town taxes which supported our local schools.

My Mom lives in a very good public school system, kids that go private, usually go because they are attending a parochial school. She is 78, and as stated above her property taxes pay for those HSs. She has been doing so with no kids in any school since she was 46. If I am right, Baby Boomers, our largest generation range in age from 56-69.
~ Can you imagine a Baby Boomer March on every state capitol regarding paying for taxes to fund public schools when they have no kids in school?

Additionally, part of anyone's state taxes goes to the state to support the state colleges, so it is a double hit for homeowners...RE taxes and state taxes.

Here is my final point that ties into the original post
It's a bit ironic as these student demands show how little they know how life works.

I would change the word life to academic world.

If my kids complained to me about their debt, the 1st thing I would do is have them go to GOOGLE and look to see how much is the endowment that their school is sitting on, while they increase cost by 10% every year. I would ask them how often do they use those beautiful gyms and pools on campus, and where they think that money comes from?
http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...olleges-with-the-largest-financial-endowments
All of the top 10 schools are in the BILLIONS.

Arizona State University has 400 Million. FSU has 625 Million. Rutgers (NJ state college) 918 Million. Penn State 2.95 BILLION. UNC endowment 2.69 Billion.

I could go on and on with state universities that hoard the money while increasing costs. It is as if they forgot that their mission is not to make money, but educate kids.

They are missing the mark when it comes to debt. They were fooled by the dog and pony show during the campus visits...the dormitory suites, the amazing pools, gym, dining halls, etc. and now when they have to pay the piper for their decision they are ticked.

However, it still comes down to me these 2 things.
1. Nobody put a gun to your head.
~ In VA and NC they have a program connected to the CCs. If you pull a 3.0 at the CC you will gain automatic acceptance to any IS college.

It was your choice to go in deeper debt so you can have that 4 year experience. In NC and VA you can go to your local CC for 2 years, carry a 3.0 and gain automatic acceptance. This would include UVA and UNCCH that are considered public Ivies.
~~ A CC for 2 years compared to the IS, would be that 27K debt the girl was hanging around her face for the article.

2. Did you march on your campus 1st regarding their endowment fund?

I can't recall the name of the documentary, nor the channel (it was either PBS, 60 minutes or HBO/Showtime), it was about Cooper Union University. It is a very small private college in NYC that since 1859 it was free to attend. However, because of mis-handling of the endowment, the school announced that they would be charging the next fall. The kids not only did a sit-in, in the President's personal office, but did it for weeks. During commencement the students stood up and turned their back on President James Bharuca during his speech.
~ In the end he resigned.

They made a difference in my opinion.

It bolded and I can't fix it from the edit aspect
 
Probably the best response to these young marching people is what Judge Smails said in the Movie Caddyshack to Danny Noonan

Danny Noonan: I planned to go to law school after I graduated, but it looks like my folks won't have enough money to put me through college.
Judge Smails: Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.
 
KP,

I never suggested that Grants and Aid have kept pace with the rise in the sticker price of a college education. Sticker prices mean nothing, just like the sticker price for medical procedures. No one pays full tuition costs other than the wealthy and/or foreigners.

I do know that the Hope and Buffet Scholarships did not exist in 1979. This from the University of Nebraska website Finaid page:

"More than 6,600 University of Nebraska students are attending one of our four campuses and paying no tuition thanks to our tuition assistance program, Collegebound Nebraska. Collegebound Nebraska is our promise to you that if you are a Nebraska resident, meet our admission requirements and qualify for a federal Pell Grant, you will pay NO TUITION at the University of Nebraska as long as you maintain certain academic standards."

That's almost 30% of all students paying $0. This doesn't include merit scholarships, for which the threshold is not that high and the need based Buffet scholarship whose threshold is well above the Pell grant threshold.

Almost every state has an almost similar formula, although many states have much more flagship schools with much higher standards of admissions. If you can't get into U Mich or MSU or Cal or GA Tech there are plenty of other publics available to in staters in those states.

Sorry. No sympathy.
 
You guys need to check out the meme Old Economy Steve. It really is a different world for kids today. This one seemed appropriate.
old-economy-steve-tuition.jpg
 
But cb7893, your Nebraska and Georgia examples are essentially state-funded free education. They would be positive examples in support of the idea that the state might deem it useful to subsidize college educations. In short: I agree, those are good programs and we should emulate them. Not every state has them so why wouldn't we want to try to find a viable method for all states to offer that in their public institutions?

KP Eng is right. It's just a different economic world. All data supports this. Students ARE saddled with radically more debt than they used to be, and college IS radically more expensive. These are simply facts. If you'd like to point to anecdotal evidence of lazy people you know who went to expensive colleges and left with debt, feel free. Of course you can find those examples; we all have a few. And the girl in that video is completely unimpressive. You can definitely find that out there.

But none of that changes the reality that we have a broken system of financing in higher education and we're seeding a generation of debtors for the future. It's unclear to me why people want to deny what is factually true -- supported by all data -- because of personal stories of annoying, entitled millennials. We all know some of them. That doesn't mean there isn't a greater policy point here. You can refuse to sympathize with an annoying 19 year old you know without refusing to acknowledge what is a perilous economic situation we're creating for ourselves in the US.

Also the argument that "no one held a gun to your head," misses the point. It's now a requirement to have a college degree for all kinds of jobs -- some police departments require it, some fire departments, nursing, early childhood practitioners, lots of municipal jobs, more and more IT jobs, and on and on. These are good jobs you used to be able to get without a college degree, and now you need a degree, or at the very least a substantial number of credit hours and proof that you're pursuing a degree.

So the point is: If we're going to make having a college degree an entry point for more jobs each year, and we're simultaneously going to let the cost of that required education rise well past the rate of inflation each year, we are de facto herding kids toward debt.

I think there's a false sense here that all college kids are clubby 18-22 year olds who are partying and have no sense of responsibility. That's a fraction of the undergraduate population. Read an intro about US college kid demographics here: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/c2/c2s2.htm (it's only a start, but you can dig around more in the linked data if you want to get a sense of the breadth of the college population these days)

A solid 40% are enrolled in community college and community. Many others are commuters to 4 -year schools. Many are well beyond their early 20s and are returning to school while working. These people are responding to the fact that more and more decent paying jobs in our professional world require college degrees. I personally don't think that makes a lot of sense and that we should have fewer degree requirements -- I think this rise in check-box degree requirements for jobs that have little-to-nothing to do with the content of degrees is a leading cause of the decline in rigor in universities. They've at least partially become cash cow, credential mills feeding into these demands. And yes, some people can become plumbers, some can become electricians. Those are great, well-compensated professions. I have friends from high school who chose not to go to college and made that choice, and they're happy with it. But that can be an answer for, at most, a tiny fraction of the population.

As it is, the college demand exists in many professional sectors and kids are going to get boxed out of decent jobs b/c they don't have college degrees. Thus, we need to make college truly affordable. Which, for various reasons, might mean free. It's at least worth having a reasoned, data-drive conversation about that concept. It's about practicality as much as it's about sympathy.

Though yeah, you know, I do sympathize. Even if it IS because they made a mistake in judgment at the age of 18 or 20 or 22, I'm still far from envious of someone saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in debt and few job prospects. That's bleak.
 
Probably the best response to these young marching people is what Judge Smails said in the Movie Caddyshack to Danny Noonan

Danny Noonan: I planned to go to law school after I graduated, but it looks like my folks won't have enough money to put me through college.
Judge Smails: Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

Seeing this quote made my night!!!! :thumb: LOVE Judge Smails!!!!
 
Miss Keely Mullen has the answers to make everything free. Just watch the above video. And since we are on the subject, how about feeling are more important than the First Amendment.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...uri-student-vp-answers-with-stunning-honesty/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...re.html#ooid=Fhd2RyeDreyNVhJGeb2Z33o9Z6a8naOf

This generation will inherit the concepts and ideology taught to them by a college system that was not held accountable for their action and neither should they. Their gift to the world, socialism.

Push Hard, Press Forward!!

Missouri student is talking about different type of freedom of speech, the type that are practiced in countries like North Korea, China, Russia, Iran - if we like it it's a free speech and if we don't like it it's not a free speech.
 
But cb7893, your Nebraska and Georgia examples are essentially state-funded free education. They would be positive examples in support of the idea that the state might deem it useful to subsidize college educations. In short: I agree, those are good programs and we should emulate them. Not every state has them so why wouldn't we want to try to find a viable method for all states to offer that in their public institutions?

They are not state funded. They are state subsidized along with a multitude of other sources. Also, in those cases, minimum standards have to be maintained by the students.

The point most of us are trying to make is that most states have similar ways for students to receive a good, reasonably priced college education. Those of means but lesser academics pay full freight. Those of greater ability and lesser means pay little or nothing. Why cover the tuition of a marginal son or daughter of a cardiologist at the local State U.

The tragedy is those in the middle income group of average or lesser academics, who bought the bill of goods that they should strive for the most prestigious education, at whatever expense and then heavily borrowed to make it happen. Much of what they borrowed was gov't subsidized $. If the $ wasn't there, they may have made better decisions.

So now you want the federal government to step in and pay the freight of everyone going to a public post-secondary institution. The federal gov't is already on the hook for over $1 Trillion in student debt. Now we are being asked to simply pay for it.

The argument seems to come down to whether students are "entitled" to a "free" post-secondary education. Or at least, how much and how should students and their parents be expected to contribute to cost of that education which everyone is convinced has such great value. If it were so great then there wouldn't so many college graduates complaining about being unemployed or under-employed.
 
I can't recall the name of the documentary, nor the channel (it was either PBS, 60 minutes or HBO/Showtime), it was about Cooper Union University. It is a very small private college in NYC that since 1859 it was free to attend. However, because of mis-handling of the endowment, the school announced that they would be charging the next fall. The kids not only did a sit-in, in the President's personal office, but did it for weeks. During commencement the students stood up and turned their back on President James Bharuca during his speech.
~ In the end he resigned.

They made a difference in my opinion.

I don't think so. From the Cooper Union Univeristy - http://cooper.edu/admissions/tuition-fees

"Starting in the Fall of 2014, all students enrolling for the first time at Cooper Union receive a half-tuition scholarship currently worth $20,400 per year ($10,200 per semester). Additional financial aid is provided to the least fortunate students to help cover tuition, housing, food, books, supplies etc. The amount of additional aid is based upon a student's demonstrated financial need."

"Undergraduate students first enrolling at Cooper Union prior to the Fall of 2014, receive a full tuition scholarship valued at $40,800 ($20,400 per semester) for the 2015-2016 school year."
 
I think we perceive the problem as fundamentally different, MemberLG. When you write this: "The tragedy is those in the middle income group of average or lesser academics, who bought the bill of goods that they should strive for the most prestigious education, at whatever expense and then heavily borrowed to make it happen."

I don't see that as the problem. I think the striving for prestige is a tangentially related problem, but one that only affects a statistically minor portion of the population.

Most of the conversation in this thread seems to operate from the presumption that what you describe above is at the root of the issue -- but the policy issue is not that kids from means took on debt to go to a more prestigious school. It is that the vast majority of the US population -- which has a mean household income of $51,939/year -- are, even with 'affordable' options, taking on a proportionally problematic amount of debt. A year at community college in most states costs nearly 10% of pre-tax household income. 40% of students currently enrolled in higher education are enrolled at community colleges. The thing is that as a child of a household at the mean income level you can not pay CC costs out-of-pocket. So, yes, students living in households at the mean income level have to go into debt in order to afford the least costly form of higher education. That doesn't make societal sense. It limits opportunity. Especially in an information-driven economy in which everyone talks all the live-long day about the 'new skills' young people need to have to even get into the job market.

Look, the initial terms of the conversation are too broad. We need to determine what 'free' college even means. Personally, I actually think fewer students overall should go to college; I think there should be far more vocational education; I think the number of 'business' programs that have proliferated are ridiculous and hollow.

But I don't think it benefits any of us to ignore the fact that college costs have risen so dramatically that you now have to go into debt to gain access to community college or FOR-PROFIT certificate programs. That's just factually, statistically true. If you think that's okay because there are so many jobs out there that people can get that will allow them to achieve financial stability without ANY higher education -- not anecdotal descriptions of jobs, but major strata of jobs that can be identified by, for instance, the department of labor-- then that's a conversation worth having. Everything I read -- and I read a lot -- unequivocally indicates that's a diminishing group of jobs. Yes, I know plumbers. Yes, I know electricians. Yes, I know skilled machines operators. I'm well aware of all of these jobs and think they're a great option and that as a culture we should do a better job of directing people towards them. But they aren't a broad answer to the issues confronting us. Everyone can not become a skilled machine operator.

The economy has changed. We either determine that in this new economy higher education is necessary for many/most jobs and make it truly accessible to people, or we determine that it isn't a requirement and eliminate the college-credentialing requirement for a lot of jobs. In that instance, the college accessibility question matters less. But our current societal stance seems to accept that the new economy jobs require skills acquired in higher education, and simultaneously structures higher education to become more and more cost prohibitive. That's pretty much a recipe for disenfranchising a generation.
 
I finished my Undergraduate and most of my MBA through the GI Bill after active duty and graduated both with no debt. My State had great tuition reductions for veterans. National Guard reductions were also substantial. Look around.
 
Personally, I actually think fewer students overall should go to college; I think there should be far more vocational education; I think the number of 'business' programs that have proliferated are ridiculous and hollow.

+1000
 
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