Money misuse at USNA a factor in Fowler's ouster as Superintendent

[Just_A_Mom]

Actually it saddens me that such stories exist. Hiding them serves no purpose. Talking about them, discussing them, bringing them out in the open can hopefully lead to a correction of the problem(s).

This actually makes me laugh. You don't discuss - you editorialize. You post articles, highlighting what you want and ignoring the rest. You rant on and on, your only goal to incite a riot. You now admit that it is personal and you have a personal vendetta against someone on this forum. Give it a rest.



IIRC, you were on the anit-Rempt bandwagon of a few years ago. Obviously, you have a personal vendetta against USNA. Your son applied to Air Force and CGA - did you forbid him from applying to USNA?

I can't believe that, after all, they have an Honor Concept to uphold. The Report says (on page 4) "Midshipman are persons of integrity. They stand for what is right. They tell the truth and ensure that the full truth is known. They do not lie. They embrace fairness in all actions. etc"
You are gullible. The Honor Board is comprised of Midshipmen, not Officers. The cheating scandal at West Point and resulting investigation found a corrupt Honor board. I am not saying the Honor board at USNA is corrupt but that it is indeed possible.

Oh btw - If you don't think the fact that she was an Admiral's daughter played a part in her retention, think again. Just as an Honor Board can be corrupt or influenced, don't think it can't happen to a CAPT or ADM.
I recall posts where you have given Capt Klunder your unwaivering support. Now, are you saying that he is corrupt or are you blaming the New Commandant Captain Clark?

 

[Mongo]

I don't respond to Mongo's "spin" as he's just trying to put a good face on a bad situation, as always. No matter what story comes out of Annapolis that shows something bad, the spin starts. Pregnant Mid allowed to graduate, change in the color guard at the baseball game, drug use condoned, Herndon cancelled/changed, honor inconsistencies, two-tiered admissions system, diversity as the #1 goal - it doesn't matter, he spins each one and denies there is a problem IN EVERY CASE. He here has no credibility with me.

Thank you.

In other words, apparently you are unable to logically answer my question?

OBTW, JAM brought up very similiar points. Answer hers.

 

[Luigi59]

Your son applied to Air Force and CGA - did you forbid him from applying to USNA?

For what purpose are you now bringing our children in to this equation?

Do you really want to go there?

 

[Just_A_Mom]

For what purpose are you now bringing our children in to this equation?

Do you really want to go there?

Testy aren't you??? Just wondering how deep the animosity runs; that's all.
I could care less where your son did or did not apply.
You keep saying how disgusted you are with Fowler - but it appears to me that your disgust with USNA pre-dates Fowler.
Just trying to get a clear picture of your motivations - nothing more, nothing less. There was a fire simmering there for a long time just waiting for the spark. Fowler provided the spark.

 

[Luigi59]

Thank you.

In other words, apparently you are unable to logically answer my question?

OBTW, JAM brought up very similiar points. Answer hers.

"Mongo" -

Your question was answered, you apparently chose to ignore the findings in the report.

"Navy Secretary Ray Mabus on June 11 tasked Roughead to review the procedures after possible inconsistencies were brought to Mabus’ attention. The CNO’s review found the Honor Concept was “fundamentally sound,” but a review of the adjudication of 27 midshipmen first class with violations during the past academic year found room for improvement.

Twelve of the cases involved lying, and the other 15 involved cheating. Twenty were in the bottom third of the class, seven were athletes and eight had prior honor violations.

Two midshipmen were found to be “not in violation,” while 11 others were processed for separation. But “inconsistencies” were identified in the way seven cases were handled. The report does not directly identify the inconsistencies, but does take strong issue with the 85-day processing time averaged for each case. The longest lasted 199 days. The target for adjudication is 35 days.

“As a result of the review, recommendations by Vice Admiral Fowler to separate two midshipmen first class for honor violations were disapproved,” Moynihan said. “Those two midshipmen will be offered the opportunity to return to the Naval Academy for ‘honor remediation.’ ”

Re-Read the conclusions of the report - inconsistencies were found in 7 of the 8 cases they called out.

Keep spinning it.

I suppose when Fowler has to retire at 2 stars rather than 3 you'll tell us all how that is also a good thing, not to read too much into that either.

 

[Mongo]

For what purpose are you now bringing our children in to this equation?

Do you really want to go there?

Good point, but nevertheless an interesting question. How about a rephrasing:

If you had a child today who was entering his senior year in high school this fall and he came up to you tonight and said he really really wanted to go to the Naval Academy. Knowing he is fully qualified, and after he demonstrates all the'correct' reasons for wanting to go, how would you advise him?

 

[scoutpilot]

I have great hopes for Rear Adm. Michael Miller to return the USNA to greatness and to clean up the mess left by Jeff Fowler.

I wasn't aware that USNA had departed from greatness. Anyone else hear that it's no longer a great institution?

It seems that there is a chip-on-the-shoulder at play here. Hell I'm a USMA grad and therefore should love a chance to exalt WP over USNA (though Forbes took care of that), but even I know that the Mids and Academy are still great and have never been less than that.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

. But “inconsistencies” were identified in the way seven cases were handled. The report does not directly identify the inconsistencies, but does take strong issue with the 85-day processing time averaged for each case.

From this you conclude that the 'inconsistency' in the Admiral's daughter's case was the fact that she is an Admiral's daughter?

 

[Luigi59]

Testy aren't you??? Just wondering how deep the animosity runs; that's all.
I could care less where your son did or did not apply.
You keep saying how disgusted you are with Fowler - but it appears to me that your disgust with USNA pre-dates Fowler.
Just trying to get a clear picture of your motivations - nothing more, nothing less. There was a fire simmering there for a long time just waiting for the spark. Fowler provided the spark.

Thank you Dr Freud.

The common theme is lack of leadership and the disregarding of honor and character. Fowler's record is full of examples.

 

[Luigi59]

From this you conclude that the 'inconsistency' in the Admiral's daughter's case was the fact that she is an Admiral's daughter?

As stated previously, if you believe it played no part, you are much too gullible.

 

[Maximus]

Testy aren't you??? Just wondering how deep the animosity runs; that's all.
I could care less where your son did or did not apply.
You keep saying how disgusted you are with Fowler - but it appears to me that your disgust with USNA pre-dates Fowler.
Just trying to get a clear picture of your motivations - nothing more, nothing less. There was a fire simmering there for a long time just waiting for the spark. Fowler provided the spark.

Come on folks...

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Honestly Luigi, you can quit with the name calling.

But “inconsistencies” were identified in the way seven cases were handled. The report does not directly identify the inconsistencies, but does take strong issue with the 85-day processing time averaged for each case.

Luigi - try this.
Read the report again but remove "Admiral's daughter" from the report. You can still find "inconsistencies". Try starting wtih the violation occurred in Dec 2009 but was not brought before the Board until May. hmmmm. I would call that inconsistent.
How about while the Board found her guilty, the COMMANDANT, other Naval Officers and her Professor could not find any wrongdoing. I would call that inconsistent.

 

[LineInTheSand]

The COMMANDANT had "SIGNIFICANT DOUBT OVER THE ALLEGATIONS AND FAIRNESS OF THE PROCESS".
THE COMMANDANT ALLOWED HER TO GRADUATE.
THE COMMANDANT STATED THAT THE FACT THAT A PARENT IS A FLAG OFFICER PLAYED NO PART IN HIS DECISION.

I don't see the Supe in this picture anywhere.
Page 6:
For those cases where the Commandant find "In Violation" there are three options:
1. No Action
2. Prescribe Sanctions
3. Refer to the Supe for Separation

The Supe doesn't get an Honor Case unless the Commandant sends it his way.

You can assume the Supe is in step with the Commandant (in general, the other way around.) The Supe sets the tone for the entire institution, including the Commandant.

 

[Luigi59]

Honestly Luigi, you can quit with the name calling.

What name calling? Don't invent things that are not there.

Sorry, JAM, you;re nto getting me banned again for something you perceive as "name calling."

I'll say it again - if you believe that her being an Admiral's daughter played no part in her retention, you are gullible. IF you think that's "name calling," grow up.

Luigi - try this.
Read the report again but remove "Admiral's daughter" from the report. You can still find "inconsistencies". Try starting wtih the violation occurred in Dec 2009 but was not brought before the Board until May. hmmmm. I would call that inconsistent.
How about while the Board found her guilty, the COMMANDANT, other Naval Officers and her Professor could not find any wrongdoing. I would call that inconsistent.

JAM - try this.

Read the report again and tell me that Jeff Fowler didn't do anything inconsistent in his adjudication of honor offenses.

Try starting with case#4 on Page 12 - a 1st offense for 1/c who was separated, while 6 others, some with PREVIOUS honor offenses were retained/remediated for the same offense. Then throw in the fact that the 1/c's service selection played a part in his separation.

Then tell me how there were not inconsistencies in Fowler's honor system.

 

[Mongo]

"Mongo" -

Your question was answered, you apparently chose to ignore the findings in the report.

"Navy Secretary Ray Mabus on June 11 tasked Roughead to review the procedures after possible inconsistencies were brought to Mabus’ attention. The CNO’s review found the Honor Concept was “fundamentally sound,” but a review of the adjudication of 27 midshipmen first class with violations during the past academic year found room for improvement.

Twelve of the cases involved lying, and the other 15 involved cheating. Twenty were in the bottom third of the class, seven were athletes and eight had prior honor violations.

Two midshipmen were found to be “not in violation,” while 11 others were processed for separation. But “inconsistencies” were identified in the way seven cases were handled. The report does not directly identify the inconsistencies, but does take strong issue with the 85-day processing time averaged for each case. The longest lasted 199 days. The target for adjudication is 35 days.

“As a result of the review, recommendations by Vice Admiral Fowler to separate two midshipmen first class for honor violations were disapproved,” Moynihan said. “Those two midshipmen will be offered the opportunity to return to the Naval Academy for ‘honor remediation.’ ”

Re-Read the conclusions of the report - inconsistencies were found in 7 of the 8 cases they called out.

Keep spinning it.

I suppose when Fowler has to retire at 2 stars rather than 3 you'll tell us all how that is also a good thing, not to read too much into that either.

Luigi, thanks for posting.

Your spin (from various posts):

And the case of the daughter of the flag officer, who was allowed to remain and graduate after honor violations during her 1/c year, smacks of "old-boy" crony-ism at its worst.
Allowing her to stay, while booting other 1/c with lesser offenses, is a legacy of the Jeff Fowler inconsistent honor system.

Actually, it was the Inspector General of the United States Navy who leveled the charges against him

Some Mids expelled for the exact same offense that allowed others to be retained. Some 1st offense retained, some expelled. Some 2nd or 3rd offense retained, some expelled. (that's inconsistency, btw).

In fact, one mid was separated because he chose Naval Aviation as his service selection.

The unequal treatment given to the Mids in these honor violation cases is nauseating. Fowler's special treatment of football players and flag-officer children is disgusting, clearly not consistent with the values he supposedly was sworn to uphold.

The common theme is lack of leadership and the disregarding of honor and character. Fowler's record is full of examples.

My observations:

Though the report does not delineate the inconsistencies, for six of the eight it appears that it was the length of time it took to adjudicate, not the sentence itself. …………………… The topmost recommendation for remediation is to correct the timeliness issue. So my logical conclusion is that this is nothing about football players or Admiral’s daughters, but about the guarantee of a speedy trial.

From the article you just posted which I haven't seen. I assume it is the Annapolis paper:

But “inconsistencies” were identified in the way seven cases were handled. The report does not directly identify the inconsistencies, but does take strong issue with the 85-day processing time averaged for each case. The longest lasted 199 days. The target for adjudication is 35 days.

Nothing about Admiral's daughters, football players, or the appropriateness of any of the sentencing. All within guidelines.

 

[Mongo]

You can assume the Supe is in step with the Commandant (in general, the other way around.) The Supe sets the tone for the entire institution, including the Commandant.

Normally, I would agree with you 100%. However, the same posters who saw the Commandant as an honorable leader with character when he disagreed with the Supt in the Curry case cannot have it both ways. According to them, he always did what he thought was the proper thing no matter the consequences. Which personally I believe, by the way, both then and now.

 

[Mongo]

What name calling? Don't invent things that are not there.

Dr Freud????? I would say accusing someone of being gullable is merely a personal attack.

JAM - try this.

Read the report again and tell me that Jeff Fowler didn't do anything inconsistent in his adjudication of honor offenses.

Try starting with case#4 on Page 12 - a 1st offense for 1/c who was separated, while 6 others, some with PREVIOUS honor offenses were retained/remediated for the same offense. Then throw in the fact that the 1/c's service selection played a part in his separation.

Then tell me how there were not inconsistencies in Fowler's honor system.

Luigi, read the report again, paying particular attention to Paragraph 5 in it's entirely on page 7. Read ALL the factors which are to be considered in the decision and then tell me how it is even remotely possible that everyone will be given the same results?

 

[LineInTheSand]

Normally, I would agree with you 100%. However, the same posters who saw the Commandant as an honorable leader with character when he disagreed with the Supt in the Curry case cannot have it both ways. According to them, he always did what he thought was the proper thing no matter the consequences. Which personally I believe, by the way, both then and now.

I remember a similar relationship between my Commandant of Cadets and Supe.....and you better believe that Supe knew everything the Capt. did and the Capt. understood everything the Supe wanted.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Luigi - way to deviate from the topic by delving into what is and is not "name calling".
You used an verb to describe me - personally - in a derogatory way. Your intention was clearly to be unflattering. Just because you used "gullible" and not "jerk" doesn't mean it's not name calling. (I suppose I should insert a couple of those thumbs down thingies in here - but I am too nice, lol).

Now, read my posts again. I didn't say there were NO inconsistencies. I just made the case that her being an Admiral's daughter may not be one. There are other possibilities as I have pointed out. You refuse to consider them.

LITS - you have a good point.
However, the Commandant needs to be able to choose freely which cases he will send to the Supe and which he won't. If it becomes a back door issue, where the Comm wants the send a case to the Supe but the Supe then says don't even send it to me - then there is a deeper issue.
None of that was described in the report. Doesn't mean it didn't happen but if it did happen I would think the investigation would ferret it out.

I would think that if the Supe was guilty of favoritsm the path this would have taken would be for the Comm to recommend separation and then the Supe to retain her. That did not happen and the Comm is on record in saying he thought the case had no merit.

All I am doing is pointing out that while Luigi puts his total faith in whomever turned her in to the honor board 5 months after the fact and the midshipmen (6 our of 9) who found her guilty..... and no conficence in the Commandant, her Professor, all of her Military chain of command (Naval officers and NCO's); it's possible he could be misguided. Perhaps she pissed off a classmate who didn't like that she's an Admiral's daughter.

Now, perhaps Luigi has some 'inside' information. Maybe he is friends of the Admiral who is thrilled that he was able to get his cheating daughter off the hook.
I don't know that -but this discussion is solely based on the report and other articles posted here. You can't have a rational discussion with someone who withholds information and stomps around saying "I'm right, I just know I'm right" over and over.
To conclude that she got off only because she is an Admiral's daughter is faulty logic.

 

[Luigi59]

To conclude that she got off only because she is an Admiral's daughter is faulty logic.

To ignore the possibility is just as illogical.

Funny how you'll entertain the possibility of a corrupt honor board.......

If you don't think an Honor Board can be corrupt. Think again. This stench probably goes pretty deep.

Folks, you all need to understand the Honor Board process at the Service Academies is not perfect. Innocent are separated and guilty ones get off. Corruption has happened in the past. Personalities fall into play.

.......Yet you completely dismiss the possibility of a US Navy Admiral giving the daughter of a fellow US Navy Admiral a break. As if that cannot happen.

THAT is a demonstration of faulty logic - imagining one scenario is possible while dismissing the other.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, no more good is going to come from it. No one who is posting is going to change their mind, the only thing to do is wait and see if Fowler goes out with 3 stars or 2.

The IG has already concluded that the slush fund played a part in his early out, we now will wait to see if plays a part in his retirement income.