NROTC and MO

[Devil Doc]

@eaab08 I agree with the above comments about the army having a ton of opportunities for new officers. The Marines have great opportunities as well but every MOS exists to support the 0311, the rifleman. I’m sure somebody can show an example of a Marine who doesn’t in any way at all support directly or indirectly Marine infantry but I’d like to hear the explanation.

The US Army though has the biggest bank account and that’s not just because it is the largest service. Medical research and disease prevention for example benefit people worldwide. I attended the medical management of chemical casualties at Aberdeen where I started an IV wearing thick rubber gloves and resuscitated an African green monkey who was dying of nerve agent intoxication. The main purpose was to show how difficult it is to bag (breathe for with Ambu bag) a nerve agent victim. We revived the animal with atropine and 2-Pam chloride and he went back to his cage. The monkeys did this once every three months. Driving to the facility that morning I went through a group of animal rights protesters. Colonel Jonathan Newmark told us they would be there.

I attended the medical management of biological casualties at USAMRIID Ft. Detrick where I was lucky enough to be in the room when Dr. Ken Alibek and Bill Patrick lectured on the same day. Alibek was the USSR’s top bioweaponeer and Patrick was his American counterpart. They went back and forth on the stage for almost two hours highlighting their efforts to win the Cold War race to biological weapons superiority. Dr. Alibek wrote about this in his book Biohazard. I have an autographed copy and it is scary. Also at USAMRIID I toured the BSL-4 lab and patient treatment room. An education like that is priceless and not available anywhere else.

It was the Marine Corps that sent me to the two schools but the point I guess is the army is the organization that has the resources to do these things. The number of MOSs available far exceed what the other services offer which of course means more opportunities.

 

[cb7893]

First off, you remind me so much of my DS it makes me laugh. Unlike you, he was not predisposed to Military Service. Like you, when he received his 4 yr AROTC scholarship, he was like a hungry dog waiting for the chance to ransack a butcher shop. The opportunities were laid out like meat cuts, if he could just get to them.

I ask because I was hoping to be able to learn a foreign language while in school.

At one time, xROTC Cadets/Mids used to receive CLIP-B payments for studying critical languages while in school. I don't know if it still exists.

CLIP-B is alive and well....

For those of you who are in Army ROTC, my DS (an MS-IV) just received a payment of $1,000 for passing first year Mandarin with a "B" grade or better. DS didn't even KNOW about the incentive for Critical language. His HR rep apparently saw the class and grade report and called him to the...

www.serviceacademyforums.com

There is also Project GO. Google it.

I am the self-appointed authority on learning a foreign language as well as it's usefulness in an Army career. So before you get too cranked up, here are a few things to think about:

• Do it because you love it. Maybe it's the passion to learn about a culture where the language is spoken. Maybe it's the puzzle solving aspect of it that fascinates you. Maybe you just want to broaden your horizons from the otherwise narrow focus of school and ROTC. Whatever the case, for the curious mind it will open up a world of new understanding about History, world politics, Geography...
• What if any experience do you have learning/speaking a foreign language? If the answer is none, it's no big deal. Some brains are more adept at language learning than other, but either way it requires work and practice.
• An Engineering major will leave you with fewer electives than Econ, leaving fewer credit hours for Foreign language.
• How much will it help you in your Military Career? (I can only speak of the experience of my DS who is an Army O-3. He had/has as thorough a foreign language resume as a blond haired, blue eyed Midwestern boy can have.) It was all included in his file, but no one cared. Not through ROTC, Branching, BOLC, or his first Duty Station. After you commission, and as a JO, nothing will matter other than your performance in your MOS. One exception might be MI. With the new branching protocols, MI might consider your foreign language facility as an indicator of your critical thinking skills.
• The language card is definitely something good to have. In my son's case, he received a transfer by request to a different branch based on his MOS performance. His language ability was simply a plus, not a determining factor. As time went by, more opportunities arose because it. If you end up in an MOS (O-3 or higher) that requires a language, then you'll already have it or if a different one is required, then learning the next language will be somewhat easier the the first.

Wish you the best of Luck!

 

[eaab08]

There is the Order of Merit List (OML) in AROTC and all ROTC participants including the top 10 participants are ranked. Here is an article from last year's top 10 directly from the Army. Yes these top 10 get their choice of where to serve.

Cadet Command names its top 10 seniors for 2019

Ten college seniors from universities across the country have been selected by Cadet Command as the top Army Reserve Officer Training Corps cadets for its annual national order-of-merit list.

www.army.mil

Quick guidance - choose your branch based on where you want to serve after commission vs any pressures you're now under for a decision. Army is indeed outstanding (proud son of an Army Korea-era veteran, cousin of Army active duty physician). Navy is outstanding - proud Nephew of a Navy Vietnam vet, grandson of a WWII officer, son-in-law of a signal corps member, , brother-in-law of Navy electrical engineer - all honorably discharged veterans and father of current NROTC trainee).

What role do you want to serve and as others said if flying do you want fixed v rotating wing. Research the missions of each branch. That over who has the best ROTC program may be important in your bigger picture.

Good luck to you and congrats on the ISR. while you were pressured by those who only want to give you the ISR if you'll use it, I would confirm the actual rules - I think you can accept it and then turn it down if you get into an academy instead. You should confirm your restrictions on accepting then turning down later for another branch. Just remember it's binary - it either is or is not binding and if you have the option to accept it but later turn it down to serve another way, then you are welcome to exercise that option. Just find out and act accordingly - the system is what it is in allowing people to accept and then later decline these options. Just look out for yourself and good luck. If you wish to honor a made-up rule that someone put in front of you that says they'll only offer if you accept - I would not let that be your guide - I would let the actual rules be your guide. This is a great early lesson in not being jerked around by false crisis/ emergencies or (I'm thinking of another word that rhymes with pull-spit).

Good luck.

Wasn't sure, thanks! I also found this article, for any people who might be lurking on this thread it details the new method for the OML, very informative.

Major changes ahead for ROTC order of merit, branching processes

Order of merit rankings used to spell doom for some Cadets wanting popular branches. Changes to the list and the assessment process to take effect this fall are now giving them a better shot at landing their career field of choice.

www.army.mil

As far as choosing a branch based on where I want to serve, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I was thinking I'd like to serve in the country where my preferred foreign language is most prevalent, but if I chose navy not quite sure if I'd be stationed "in a country" while I'm actually just on a boat in that country's waters. I don't have a problem with being on a boat itself, but it would certainly make practicing the language with native speakers more challenging. However based on this wikipedia page:

United States military deployments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

there are far more navy folk in the desired country than Army (note: country is Japan, seems like a cool place to be stationed). Also doesn't help that I have no idea how competitive it is for that specific country.

This was DS' experience with his ISR offer 4 years ago. He was asked, if offered the ISR, would he commit to using it. The CO explained that this was not a legally binding commitment, but his word of honor. It was further explained, that he was welcome to accept the ISR and later turn it down with no hard feelings if he was appointed to a service academy (he wasn't applying to any SA). The CO explained that he only had a few ISRs he could award and wanted to be sure they would be used and that by offering DS an ISR, he was putting his own personal recommendation and "stamp of approval" on DS' potential, so his own reputation was somewhat tied to my DS. CO asked DS not to accept the ISR if he was not certain NROTC was the path he wanted to follow (or an SA), so that it could be awarded to someone who was certain of the NROTC path. Again, it was made clear this was not legally binding, as any NROTC scholarship recipient can decline a scholarship or drop out of the program up until they begin their second year. I'd suggest you examine where your heart is and what you want, as well as confirm any legal aspects. This is a bird in the hand. There is no guarantee of an NROTC or AROTC scholarship offer from the regular boards and no guarantee of an SA appointment, but if you are competitive for an ISR, you should be in serious consideration for one of these paths.

Both of y'all bring up great points. I'm truly torn between doing the sorta-selfish thing and accept with the possibility of declining later on or asking to be put into the normal applicant pool. I'll think about it a little more and probably call the recruiter on Monday- don't want to disrupt her Christmas. Thank you both for the advice!

 

[cb7893]

As far as choosing a branch based on where I want to serve, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I was thinking I'd like to serve in the country where my preferred foreign language is most prevalent, but if I chose navy not quite sure if I'd be stationed "in a country" while I'm actually just on a boat in that country's waters. I don't have a problem with being on a boat itself, but it would certainly make practicing the language with native speakers more challenging.

Now you’re really reminding me of my son as an 18 yr old. He didn’t listen to a thing I say. I’m saying this with affection. You don’t just choose where you will serve. When the Army tells you where to go as a JO, they don’t care about your language abilities and even less about your desire to practice a language.

I’ll be blunt. My DS showed up at college as an MS I testing out of Spanish, Portuguese and Mandarin Chinese. No one cared. He took a semester of Italian because he thought it would be fun and an easy “A”. He did a Program Go summer program learning (certainly not mastering) Russian in Kiev, Ukraine. Senior year he took two semesters of Arabic.

His first duty station was Kuwait which had nothing to do with his two semesters of Arabic and everything to do with his choice of MOS (Signal). The other O-1’s in his branch tended to want stay CONUS. While he took every opportunity to speak Arabic to the kitchen staff, bus drivers, hawkers in the souk, but no one cared other than him.

His transfer by request to a different branch, where he was able to use his language skills, came as a result of pure dumb a$$ luck. There was an incompetent Signal Officer and my DS was able to get the job done. Nothing else mattered. The language skills in his back pocket gave him the opportunities he is now enjoying.

Again, I wish you luck, but urge you to concentrate on your GPA, your xROTC opportunities and responsibilities, and your physical fitness.

 

[eaab08]

@eaab08 I agree with the above comments about the army having a ton of opportunities for new officers. The Marines have great opportunities as well but every MOS exists to support the 0311, the rifleman. I’m sure somebody can show an example of a Marine who doesn’t in any way at all support directly or indirectly Marine infantry but I’d like to hear the explanation.

The US Army though has the biggest bank account and that’s not just because it is the largest service. Medical research and disease prevention for example benefit people worldwide. I attended the medical management of chemical casualties at Aberdeen where I started an IV wearing thick rubber gloves and resuscitated an African green monkey who was dying of nerve agent intoxication. The main purpose was to show how difficult it is to bag (breathe for with Ambu bag) a nerve agent victim. We revived the animal with atropine and 2-Pam chloride and he went back to his cage. The monkeys did this once every three months. Driving to the facility that morning I went through a group of animal rights protesters. Colonel Jonathan Newmark told us they would be there.

I attended the medical management of biological casualties at USAMRIID Ft. Detrick where I was lucky enough to be in the room when Dr. Ken Alibek and Bill Patrick lectured on the same day. Alibek was the USSR’s top bioweaponeer and Patrick was his American counterpart. They went back and forth on the stage for almost two hours highlighting their efforts to win the Cold War race to biological weapons superiority. Dr. Alibek wrote about this in his book Biohazard. I have an autographed copy and it is scary. Also at USAMRIID I toured the BSL-4 lab and patient treatment room. An education like that is priceless and not available anywhere else.

It was the Marine Corps that sent me to the two schools but the point I guess is the army is the organization that has the resources to do these things. The number of MOSs available far exceed what the other services offer which of course means more opportunities.

Certainly something to keep in mind, and it's clear they have the largest bank account based on the CLIP-B mentioned below! Definitely a good opportunity. For somebody like me who isn't entirely sure what I want my MOS to be this is good news.

First off, you remind me so much of my DS it makes me laugh. Unlike you, he was not predisposed to Military Service. Like you, when he received his 4 yr AROTC scholarship, he was like a hungry dog waiting for the chance to ransack a butcher shop. The opportunities were laid out like meat cuts, if he could just get to them.



At one time, xROTC Cadets/Mids used to receive CLIP-B payments for studying critical languages while in school. I don't know if it still exists.

CLIP-B is alive and well....

For those of you who are in Army ROTC, my DS (an MS-IV) just received a payment of $1,000 for passing first year Mandarin with a "B" grade or better. DS didn't even KNOW about the incentive for Critical language. His HR rep apparently saw the class and grade report and called him to the...

www.serviceacademyforums.com

There is also Project GO. Google it.

I am the self-appointed authority on learning a foreign language as well as it's usefulness in an Army career. So before you get too cranked up, here are a few things to think about:

• Do it because you love it. Maybe it's the passion to learn about a culture where the language is spoken. Maybe it's the puzzle solving aspect of it that fascinates you. Maybe you just want to broaden your horizons from the otherwise narrow focus of school and ROTC. Whatever the case, for the curious mind it will open up a world of new understanding about History, world politics, Geography...
• What if any experience do you have learning/speaking a foreign language? If the answer is none, it's no big deal. Some brains are more adept at language learning than other, but either way it requires work and practice.
• An Engineering major will leave you with fewer electives than Econ, leaving fewer credit hours for Foreign language.
• How much will it help you in your Military Career? (I can only speak of the experience of my DS who is an Army O-3. He had/has as thorough a foreign language resume as a blond haired, blue eyed Midwestern boy can have.) It was all included in his file, but no one cared. Not through ROTC, Branching, BOLC, or his first Duty Station. After you commission, and as a JO, nothing will matter other than your performance in your MOS. One exception might be MI. With the new branching protocols, MI might consider your foreign language facility as an indicator of your critical thinking skills.
• The language card is definitely something good to have. In my son's case, he received a transfer by request to a different branch based on his MOS performance. His language ability was simply a plus, not a determining factor. As time went by, more opportunities arose because it. If you end up in an MOS (O-3 or higher) that requires a language, then you'll already have it or if a different one is required, then learning the next language will be somewhat easier the the first.

Wish you the best of Luck!

I couldn't agree more! I want to join ROTC or a service academy to one day be an officer, but the number of opportunities available on either path absolutely blows me away. I've come across both CLIP-B and Project Go, and they both sound amazing. I've also heard of CULP, which seems to be very similar although I'm sure there are differences. I even saw that same thread- based on the fact that the postings are from 2019 I'm thinking it still exists. I'd take the foreign language classes regardless though. It'd be really challenging to work in foreign language electives that might be unrelated to my major, but I know (at least if I go to GT, where I'd do engineering) I'd be able to take courses over the summer. If I understand correctly there aren't summer obligations for ROTC if you start as a freshman so I think if I'm diligent I could handle it all.

 

[eaab08]

Now you’re really reminding me of my son as an 18 yr old. He didn’t listen to a thing I say. I’m saying this with affection. You don’t just choose where you will serve. When the Army tells you where to go as a JO, they don’t care about your language abilities and even less about your desire to practice a language.

I’ll be blunt. My DS showed up at college as an MS I testing out of Spanish, Portuguese and Mandarin Chinese. No one cared. He took a semester of Italian because he thought it would be fun and an easy “A”. He did a Program Go summer program learning (certainly not mastering) Russian in Kiev, Ukraine. Senior year he took two semesters of Arabic.

His first duty station was Kuwait which had nothing to do with his two semesters of Arabic and everything to do with his choice of MOS (Signal). The other O-1’s in his branch tended to want stay CONUS. While he took every opportunity to speak Arabic to the kitchen staff, bus drivers, hawkers in the souk, but no one cared other than him.

His transfer by request to a different branch, where he was able to use his language skills, came as a result of pure dumb a$$ luck. There was an incompetent Signal Officer and my DS was able to get the job done. Nothing else mattered. The language skills in his back pocket gave him the opportunities he is now enjoying.

Again, I wish you luck, but urge you to concentrate on your GPA, your xROTC opportunities and responsibilities, and your physical fitness.

Egad, didn't realize there was another reply until I refreshed. I have to say, your son sounds very skilled. He must really enjoy learning languages! It seems like everywhere I go the answer is "the needs of the military come first." Crazy, huh? Then again here I am talking about the opportunities they're providing so there's some give and take here. I suppose it's good news that most want CONUS, I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to try and travel abroad though. No worries here- no matter what I'll prioritize health and GPA.
If you don't mind my asking, do you recall where he was on the OML and if Kuwait was his first choice?

 

[cb7893]

If you don't mind my asking, do you recall where he was on the OML and if Kuwait was his first choice?

I don't know what his OML was, but I assume it was top 25% based on GPA. He did Project GO and had the language points, but his ROTC resume was thin--no Ranger Challenge, no leadership position, no color guard, all of which, count towards one's OML.

He branched Signal, not a very popular choice. First choice was Cyber, but that was it's first year of existence and they only took about 10 CS/CE majors, all from USMA. He was comfortable with the tech side of the MOS and figured it would be the best MOS to carry into the civvy world if he were to leave the Army after his commitment. He had some four dimensional logic that told him Signal would give him the best chance of serving overseas, which is how it worked out. His first two choices for duty station were Qatar and Kuwait, because that was where the action was at the time. Can't remember what his stateside choice was.

What language are you even thinking about? Doesn't your high school require at least two years of one?

 

[rocatlin]

The "textbook" version: The mission of the Marine Corps rifle squad is to locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, or repel the enemy assault by fire and close combat.

Rah. FMFM 6-5 back in my day. Redesignated as MCWP-3-11.

 

[eaab08]

I don't know what his OML was, but I assume it was top 25% based on GPA. He did Project GO and had the language points, but his ROTC resume was thin--no Ranger Challenge, no leadership position, no color guard, all of which, count towards one's OML.

He branched Signal, not a very popular choice. First choice was Cyber, but that was it's first year of existence and they only took about 10 CS/CE majors, all from USMA. He was comfortable with the tech side of the MOS and figured it would be the best MOS to carry into the civvy world if he were to leave the Army after his commitment. He had some four dimensional logic that told him Signal would give him the best chance of serving overseas, which is how it worked out. His first two choices for duty station were Qatar and Kuwait, because that was where the action was at the time. Can't remember what his stateside choice was.

What language are you even thinking about? Doesn't your high school require at least two years of one?

Cool! I was thinking about Japanese but it could change depending on where I go and what languages are offered there. I took three years of Latin in HS, enjoyed it but was hoping to shake things up a little with a different foreign language.

 

[cb7893]

Cool! I was thinking about Japanese but it could change depending on where I go and what languages are offered there. I took three years of Latin in HS, enjoyed it but was hoping to shake things up a little with a different foreign language.

Japanese is notoriously difficult and is not spoken outside of Japan.

Latin has been on the decline since the Sacking of Rome by the Visigoths, so it would only be of use to you as the Military Attaché to the Vatican. Otherwise, it would make learning one of the Romance languages (French, Spanish, Italian) a cinch. It would also help you with the Slavic Languages, notably Russian.

Demand during your lifetime in the Military will be strong for Chinese, Russian, Arabic and Farsi--all of which are really tough. However, any language can be useful in the right circumstances and if you never use it in a military context, you'll be no worse off for having had the curiosity and the determination.

Remember, don't think you will derive any benefit in your early military career because of it...you may never derive any from it. So do it for the love of it.

 

[MidCakePa]

DD is minoring in Arabic, alongside her STEM major, at USNA. She knows it will have little, if any, impact on her naval career. She’s doing it because she finds the language and culture fascinating and of significant geopolitical importance. She landed a spot in an exchange program to Israel the summer before youngster year, which she loved.

Her only regret is that she didn’t pursue Arabic as a second major, which would’ve allowed her to go much deeper and gain greater fluency. Validating several plebe year courses created the necessary space to do it — she just didn’t think of it at the time.

Just another perspective...for what it’s worth.

 

[cb7893]

^^^This is the template^^^

 

[eaab08]

Japanese is notoriously difficult and is not spoken outside of Japan.

Latin has been on the decline since the Sacking of Rome by the Visigoths, so it would only be of use to you as the Military Attaché to the Vatican. Otherwise, it would make learning one of the Romance languages (French, Spanish, Italian) a cinch. It would also help you with the Slavic Languages, notably Russian.

Demand during your lifetime in the Military will be strong for Chinese, Russian, Arabic and Farsi--all of which are really tough. However, any language can be useful in the right circumstances and if you never use it in a military context, you'll be no worse off for having had the curiosity and the determination.

Remember, don't think you will derive any benefit in your early military career because of it...you may never derive any from it. So do it for the love of it.

Ah, yes. I remember many people asking why I would want to study Latin since it's a dead language. At least, dead outside of most high schools and colleges and the modern romance languages that it lives on through. And of course, the Vatican. But I digress. There are a couple of reasons why I prefer it, but none are really substantial enough to mean I'm not subject to change. I really wanted to try something that is totally different from English, which pretty much eliminates Romance languages. Chinese would've been cool, but tones seem really challenging (not that every language doesn't have challenging parts, those just seem really challenging). I recall asking a question on whether minoring in a foreign language would affect where I was stationed. The short answer... no. So I'd do it because I want to learn the language, just trying to roughly plan ahead. Still considering doing Russian but not sold, but the vocab relation with Latin is something to keep in mind.

DD is minoring in Arabic, alongside her STEM major, at USNA. She knows it will have little, if any, impact on her naval career. She’s doing it because she finds the language and culture fascinating and of significant geopolitical importance. She landed a spot in an exchange program to Israel the summer before youngster year, which she loved.

Her only regret is that she didn’t pursue Arabic as a second major, which would’ve allowed her to go much deeper and gain greater fluency. Validating several plebe year courses created the necessary space to do it — she just didn’t think of it at the time.

Just another perspective...for what it’s worth.

Very cool! Do you know how she's handling the mix of STEM and foreign language courses? One of the things I worry about is the foreign language getting pushed to the side to make way for major relevant courses.

 

[nrotcmid23]

Ah, yes. I remember many people asking why I would want to study Latin since it's a dead language. At least, dead outside of most high schools and colleges and the modern romance languages that it lives on through. And of course, the Vatican. But I digress. There are a couple of reasons why I prefer it, but none are really substantial enough to mean I'm not subject to change. I really wanted to try something that is totally different from English, which pretty much eliminates Romance languages. Chinese would've been cool, but tones seem really challenging (not that every language doesn't have challenging parts, those just seem really challenging). I recall asking a question on whether minoring in a foreign language would affect where I was stationed. The short answer... no. So I'd do it because I want to learn the language, just trying to roughly plan ahead. Still considering doing Russian but not sold, but the vocab relation with Latin is something to keep in mind.

Very cool! Do you know how she's handling the mix of STEM and foreign language courses? One of the things I worry about is the foreign language getting pushed to the side to make way for major relevant courses.

I'm a Chinese and math double major, let me know if you have any questions. Either pm or just reply.

 

[MidCakePa]

Very cool! Do you know how she's handling the mix of STEM and foreign language courses? One of the things I worry about is the foreign language getting pushed to the side to make way for major relevant courses.

She’s handling it well. For starters, she really likes both her STEM major and her Arabic minor. She was able to validate several courses plebe year, which freed her up for electives now. And the online courses over summer freed up more time. But she’s always been a diligent student and has found a way to balance academics with her club sport team and leadership billets (including a Brigade-level billet in the coming semester).

 

[eaab08]

I'm a Chinese and math double major, let me know if you have any questions. Either pm or just reply.

Will send a pm in the next few minutes.

She’s handling it well. For starters, she really likes both her STEM major and her Arabic minor. She was able to validate several courses plebe year, which freed her up for electives now. And the online courses over summer freed up more time. But she’s always been a diligent student and has found a way to balance academics with her club sport team and leadership billets (including a Brigade-level billet in the coming semester).

Good to hear, regardless of where I end up it seems hard to juggle the responsibilities, but it's clearly possible since she's doing it. Good luck to her in the coming semesters!

 

[cb7893]

Still considering doing Russian but not sold, but the vocab relation with Latin is something to keep in mind.

If you're asking, which you should chose, I would say Russian.

The alphabet is the easiest part.

It has tons of English cognates, derived from Latin, Greek and German. Nautical/sailing terminology is straight from Dutch.

A common difficulty for English speakers are the case endings. You understand the concept already from Latin. Russian has six cases which function much as they do in Latin.

The other common difficulty is verb tenses. Unfortunately, there isn't much overlap between Slavic and Romance languages.

Every language is a window into a nation's culture and history and those don't get more interesting than in Russia.

Again. Best of luck!

 

[kinnem]

^ Этот

 

[cb7893]

@kinnem ,

You are man of few words...who can skillfully use Google Translate.

мне нравится

 

[eaab08]

If you're asking, which you should chose, I would say Russian.

The alphabet is the easiest part.

It has tons of English cognates, derived from Latin, Greek and German. Nautical/sailing terminology is straight from Dutch.

A common difficulty for English speakers are the case endings. You understand the concept already from Latin. Russian has six cases which function much as they do in Latin.

The other common difficulty is verb tenses. Unfortunately, there isn't much overlap between Slavic and Romance languages.

Every language is a window into a nation's culture and history and those don't get more interesting than in Russia.

Again. Best of luck!

Good points, it certainly makes sense that it's more related to English. I don't think I'll be sure until I'm choosing my classes, but I know it's between these two now. Thanks!