NROTC plan B?

J

Just Bee-cause

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Joined
Jun 6, 2023
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126
Hello,
After many recommendations to have NROTC as a plan B, DS is now hearing contradictory info. He's being told that NROTC grads don't quite get the same jobs or career options, mainly because academy grads get 1st pick at assignments. Then their entire career trajectory is determined. He thinks he'll wind up with a job without any advancement opportunities. Before he abandons his ROTC application, is there any validity to this? Sounds odd to me & I'm not sure I trust his sources.
Thanks as always!
 
Let’s chalk this up to “well-intended bystander who doesn’t actually know the facts.” Also known as an urban myth.

The main difference between USNA grads and ROTC grads is that the former are limited to unrestricted-line jobs upon commissioning, while the latter can be assigned to unrestricted line or restricted line. Unrestricted-line jobs are essentially front-line roles: surface warfare, submarines, aviation, Marines, SO, EOD that eventually entail command. (There are exceptions, of course, such as a USNA mid who suffers an injury before graduation that precludes them from serving in an unrestricted role. But those exceptions are few.)

Once a grad earns their butter bars, it really doesn’t matter how they got them — USNA, ROTC, OCS. They’re all the same in the eyes of those who make assignments and grant promotions. At that point, all that matters is performance, performance, performance.
 
MidCakePa said:
Let’s chalk this up to “well-intended bystander who doesn’t actually know the facts.” Also known as an urban myth.

The main difference between USNA grads and ROTC grads is that the former are limited to unrestricted-line jobs upon commissioning, while the latter can be assigned to unrestricted line or restricted line. Unrestricted-line jobs are essentially front-line roles: surface warfare, submarines, aviation, Marines, SO, EOD that eventually entail command. (There are exceptions, of course, such as a USNA mid who suffers an injury before graduation that precludes them from serving in an unrestricted role. But those exceptions are few.)

Once a grad earns their butter bars, it really doesn’t matter how they got them — USNA, ROTC, OCS. They’re all the same in the eyes of those who make assignments and grant promotions. At that point, all that matters is performance, performance, performance.
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All of this is correct, but one thing. NROTC produces 99% Unrestricted Line Jobs as that is there mission. There are always a few Restricted lines in the mix every year, but it seems like they are more unicorns than usual paths to commission. Most RL commissions are through OCS, NUPOC, and other commission piplines than NROTC and USNA.
 
2028Mom? said:
He's being told that NROTC grads don't quite get the same jobs or career options, mainly because academy grads get 1st pick at assignments.
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That's simply BS .... Once you get to the Fleet , its performance that counts and nobody cares where you went to college or your commissioning source. There may have been a distinction before World War II...but that went away long ago.
 
2028Mom? said:
Hello,
After many recommendations to have NROTC as a plan B, DS is now hearing contradictory info. He's being told that NROTC grads don't quite get the same jobs or career options, mainly because academy grads get 1st pick at assignments. Then their entire career trajectory is determined. He thinks he'll wind up with a job without any advancement opportunities. Before he abandons his ROTC application, is there any validity to this? Sounds odd to me & I'm not sure I trust his sources.
Thanks as always!
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Please ask your DS not to apply. This would give mine a better shot at first board.
 
SeePower said:
Question: approximately what time of year is NROTC first board?
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My information is slightly dated as I have been away from the processes for a few months, but I believe the initial 3 NROTC boards are....
  • 16-20 October 2023
  • 13-16 November 2023
  • 11-15 December 2023
 
2028Mom? said:
mainly because academy grads get 1st pick at assignments. Then their entire career trajectory is determined.
Click to expand...

I just wanted to focus on these two items in your post. For the first part, while USNA gets to "pick" first, there are two separate community selection processes between USNA and NROTC. Using the SWO community as an example, there will be a large celebration ceremony at USNA for ship selection night when the Mids pick their ships. A few weeks later, NROTC will have a separate one. The surface community manager goes to great lengths to ensure there is a fair mix of ships and ports available so that both USNA and NROTC get their pick of places and types of ship.

To the second part of your post......no, an Ensign's career trajectory is not determined by their initial community selection. Look at the current flag officer assignments across all of the fleets and joint commands. There are Admirals who were SWO, Aviator, Subs, SEAL, and several in the Restricted Line community.

What sometimes happens is the kids get a big sales pitch from someone affiliated with the academies. And they sell them on the notion that if they don't get into one of the service academies, then their career is over before it starts. It is just a bit of hype.

I would also offer that depending on how a question was posed by a potential interviewer, a person who offered that they only want to commission if they can go to a service academy may not appear as committed as a person who basically says, "I'll do whatever it takes to get my degree and commission because I want to serve my country."

There will always be people who prefer one method of commission over another. I happened to spend 7 years enlisted and then commissioned through NROTC. I felt like I had more support from my enlisted team, especially the Chiefs, because I had walked in their shoes and knew what they had gone through.
 
2028Mom? said:
Hello,
After many recommendations to have NROTC as a plan B, DS is now hearing contradictory info. He's being told that NROTC grads don't quite get the same jobs or career options, mainly because academy grads get 1st pick at assignments. Then their entire career trajectory is determined. He thinks he'll wind up with a job without any advancement opportunities. Before he abandons his ROTC application, is there any validity to this? Sounds odd to me & I'm not sure I trust his sources.
Thanks as always!
Click to expand...
No. No. No. Waving BS flag.

NROTC grads start at the same place as USNA and OCS grads, in the same sequence for their warfare specialty training. The good jobs, promotions, etc., come with sustained superior performance in competition with peers.

I have always said the SA grads are the best prepared professionally to join the Fleet or Corps, but equally bright and capable people commission via NROTC and OCS. NROTC people usually have more experience managing every day life tasks such as renting an apartment and other daily living tasks of young adults. As a multi-time Commanding Officer, I didn’t care where my officers got their butter bar, I was looking for performance, performance, performance. The sailors and Marines don’t give a rat’s glass about the commissioning source; they want a fair, decent, reasonably smart, trainable officer as their boss, one without hubris. The “SA effect” wears off in about 1-2 years.

I went to Navy OCS. Four month of condensed, intense training without the college degree work. I never felt “less than.” I was equally mentored by seniors from various commissioning sources, and I usually didn’t know where they got their commission. I got the “performance” speech early on and focused on that.

I do think, post-service, the SA grads have a very special bond when it comes to career networking, but the greater veteran family does as well.

Sure, way way way back in the day, I suspect there was a bit of cronyism, but that was pretty much a thing of the past when I raised my hand in 1977.

Urban myth. Unfounded. Trope.

As you can tell, I find it irresponsible for people to say these things.
 
MidCakePa said:
Let’s chalk this up to “well-intended bystander who doesn’t actually know the facts.” Also known as an urban myth.

The main difference between USNA grads and ROTC grads is that the former are limited to unrestricted-line jobs upon commissioning, while the latter can be assigned to unrestricted line or restricted line. Unrestricted-line jobs are essentially front-line roles: surface warfare, submarines, aviation, Marines, SO, EOD that eventually entail command. (There are exceptions, of course, such as a USNA mid who suffers an injury before graduation that precludes them from serving in an unrestricted role. But those exceptions are few.)

Once a grad earns their butter bars, it really doesn’t matter how they got them — USNA, ROTC, OCS. They’re all the same in the eyes of those who make assignments and grant promotions. At that point, all that matters is performance, performance, performance.
Click to expand...
Ummm, NROTC is way more restrictive on restricted line than USNA. Ah - I see GWU PNS is with us, our resident NROTC Emeritus skipper.
 
Agree with the great posts above. I do have a foggy memory of the service academy grads getting a slightly higher lineal list ranking over NROTC grads which equates to earlier promotions.

I may be confused or incorporating urban myths into fight details. Or this may have been true at one time and no longer applicable.

Can anyone clear this up?
 
USMCGrunt said:
Agree with the great posts above. I do have a foggy memory of the service academy grads getting a slightly higher lineal list ranking over NROTC grads which equates to earlier promotions.

I may be confused or incorporating urban myths into fight details. Or this may have been true at one time and no longer applicable.

Can anyone clear this up?
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The other posters can probably clear it up more than I can. But yes, USNA grads do have a slightly higher lineal list ranking over ROTC grads for the same graduation month. I've heard this doesn't matter in the long run, as they'll promote to O-2 and O-3 on the exact same day anyways, and then promotion is based on your performance.

As far as OP's question, I strongly concur with what other replies have said already. NROTC is a great route for a commission, and it pays for college (just like USNA). Commissioning source isn't held against you nor will it be the sole reason for your promotion. Your performance as an officer leading sailors will matter most.
 
USMCGrunt said:
Agree with the great posts above. I do have a foggy memory of the service academy grads getting a slightly higher lineal list ranking over NROTC grads which equates to earlier promotions.

I may be confused or incorporating urban myths into fight details. Or this may have been true at one time and no longer applicable.

Can anyone clear this up?
Click to expand...
Interestingly enough, the straight promotion by lineal number method has been replaced by a merit promotion variation. From those who are board-selected for next FY promotion to next rank, these who are top performers - regardless of lineal number or commissioning source - are promoted on 1 Oct. I think the rest of those on the list promote on a monthly bases as lineal numbers dictate, per usual.

Again, performance, performance, performance, gunning for pack-plus status over year group peers who are pack and pack-minus.
 
LST271 said:
What are some examples of “restricted line” positions?
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Keep browsing in the Navy forum long enough, and you will stumble across explanations.

Here’s a crash course.
Navy officers go into a specialty area after commissioning, that can be called their warfare community or their designator (each community has a 4-digit designation).
- There are some major groups of these communities.
- Each community will have a career path taking the officer through various assignments and qualifications across the arc of their career. There will be some tours of duty (assignments) all must do in the community, and then some other assignments not everyone does. A good example is a Blue Angels Navy pilot. That pilot has followed a path from initial flight training, alternating shore and sea/operational duty tours. Then there is an opportunity to apply for an Angels slot, or a White House Fellowship or some other assignment.
- Back to communities.
- Unrestricted line (URL). The term is likely drawn from the Royal Navy back in the day, when “ships of the line” were the major battle platforms, distinguishing them from supply ships and other support ships. The URL communities are surface warfare, submarines, aviation (pilot), aviation (NFO), SEAL, EOD, etc. They are unrestricted because these officers may command in their warfare community as well as ashore. If a SWO, they could command a ship or perhaps a training command ashore. USNA and NROTC are geared to produce officers going to URL communities, usually the most populous. These officers do the primary warfare missions, working closely with other officer communities.
- Restricted Line (RL). These officers may command in their own community, but not outside it. There is an array of smaller communities whose officers are technical experts in their field: intel, cyber, meteorology, and many others. They may be the only member of their community assigned to a unit, such as an intel officer with a deployed aviation squadron, or they may be at a command dedicated to their specialty area or assigned to a big staff to contribute in their specialty area. These communities are pretty much non-existent opportunities for NROTC and in small handfuls out of USNA. Often URL officers competitively apply for lateral transfer and redesignation into an RL community later on in their career. Some may become NPQ in their URL community and are offered a spot in an RL community.
- Staff Corps. These are your “professions” - Medical Corps, Nurse Corps, Dental Corps, Medical Service Corps, JAG Corps, Chaplain Corps, Supply Corps, Civil Engineering Corps, etc. They serve in their own community and may command in their community. USNA allows about 15 grads to go Med Corps or Dental Corps each year. NROTC does not have a formal program to apply for a Corps role. Again, you might see a USNA midshipman go into CEC if they had received a color blind waiver to get into USNA, and were allowed to go RL or URL.
- There are other officer communities such as Chief Warrant Officer (CWO) or Limited Duty Officer (LDO). Those are for enlisted later in their careers.

Some links to illustrate:

Every year, USNA publishes where new ensigns are headed, and you can see the majority go URL. You can also see the relative few going RL or Staff Corps.
www.usna.edu

NAVAL ACADEMY CLASS OF 2023 OBTAIN CAREER ASSIGNMENTS

NAVAL ACADEMY CLASS OF 2023 OBTAIN CAREER ASSIGNMENTS page for USNA News Center at USNA.edu. Updated Tue May 14 05:39:21 EDT 2024.
www.usna.edu

Each and every Navy officer community has a community manager who oversees the career path. Here’s an example from the MyNavyHR website, where you find detailed descriptions of each family of communities, career paths, how to transfer in, etc. Here’s a typical detailer (assignment counselor) slide deck used for briefings to community members and others. This is for the 1310 (pilot designator) and 1320 (naval flight officer designator) in the VFA (fighter-attack community. Enjoy the call signs. Pay attention to the options for sea shore rotation and the timelines. Where it says USNA or NROTC, that means staff assignment at USNA or a NROTC unit.

There will be an open notes pop quiz later.
 
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Capt MJ said:
Keep browsing in the Navy forum long enough, and you will stumble across explanations.

Here’s a crash course.
Navy officers go into a specialty area after commissioning, that can be called their warfare community or their designator (each community has a 4-digit designation).
- There are some major groups of these communities.
- Each community will have a career path taking the officer through various assignments and qualifications across the arc of their career. There will be some tours of duty (assignments) all must do in the community, and then some other assignments not everyone does. A good example is a Blue Angels Navy pilot. That pilot has followed a path from initial flight training, alternating shore and sea/operational duty tours. Then there is an opportunity to apply for an Angels slot, or a White House Fellowship or some other assignment.
- Back to communities.
- Unrestricted line (URL). The term is likely drawn from the Royal Navy back in the day, when “ships of the line” were the major battle platforms, distinguishing them from supply ships and other support ships. The URL communities are surface warfare, submarines, aviation (pilot), aviation (NFO), SEAL, EOD, etc. They are unrestricted because these officers may command in their warfare community as well as ashore. If a SWO, they could command a ship or perhaps a training command ashore. USNA and NROTC are geared to produce officers going to URL communities, usually the most populous. These officers do the primary warfare missions, working closely with other officer communities.
- Restricted Line (RL). These officers may command in their own community, but not outside it. There is an array of smaller communities whose officers are technical experts in their field: intel, cyber, meteorology, and many others. They may be the only member of their community assigned to a unit, such as an intel officer with a deployed aviation squadron, or they may be at a command dedicated to their specialty area or assigned to a big staff to contribute in their specialty area. These communities are pretty much non-existent opportunities for NROTC and in small handfuls out of USNA. Often URL officers competitively apply for lateral transfer and redesignation into an RL community later on in their career. Some may become NPQ in their URL community and are offered a spot in an RL community.
- Staff Corps. These are your “professions” - Medical Corps, Nurse Corps, Dental Corps, Medical Service Corps, JAG Corps, Chaplain Corps, Supply Corps, Civil Engineering Corps, etc. They serve in their own community and may command in their community. USNA allows about 15 grads to go Med Corps or Dental Corps each year. NROTC does not have a formal program to apply for a Corps role. Again, you might see a USNA midshipman go into CEC if they had received a color blind waiver to get into USNA, and were allowed to go RL or URL.
- There are other officer communities such as Chief Warrant Officer (CWO) or Limited Duty Officer (LDO). Those are for enlisted later in their careers.

Some links to illustrate:

Every year, USNA publishes where new ensigns are headed, and you can see the majority go URL. You can also see the relative few going RL or Staff Corps.
www.usna.edu

NAVAL ACADEMY CLASS OF 2023 OBTAIN CAREER ASSIGNMENTS

NAVAL ACADEMY CLASS OF 2023 OBTAIN CAREER ASSIGNMENTS page for USNA News Center at USNA.edu. Updated Tue May 14 05:39:21 EDT 2024.
www.usna.edu

Each and every Navy officer community has a community manager who oversees the career path. Here’s an example from the MyNavyHR website, where you find detailed descriptions of each family of communities, career paths, how to transfer in, etc. Here’s a typical detailer (assignment counselor) slide deck used for briefings to community members and others. This is for the 1310 (pilot designator) and 1320 (naval flight officer designator) in the VFA (fighter-attack community. Enjoy the call signs. Pay attention to the options for sea shore rotation and the timelines. Where it says USNA or NROTC, that means staff assignment at USNA or a NROTC unit.

There will be an open notes pop quiz later.
Click to expand...
This post should be "pinned" or bookmarked or however one puts a post for easy locating down the road. Nicely written! 👍
 
2028Mom? said:
After many recommendations to have NROTC as a plan B
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2028Mom? said:
Before he abandons his ROTC application
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You have received some informative responses to show that the information your DS was told is false. One thing that strikes me is that even if it were true, you stated NROTC was plan B. Why would he abandon plan B even if what he was told was true? That would eliminate one option to commission. Service academies are great, but tough to get into. Every year great candidates don't get in. If he really wants to commission he should keep all options open.

I currently have two active service children. One went to a SA and the other applied to SA, was not offered an appointment, but was offered a ROTC scholarship. There were positives and negatives to each commissioning source, but both got them to where they wanted to be and both are following similar career paths and promotions.
 
Dadof2 said:
One thing that strikes me is that even if it were true, you stated NROTC was plan B. Why would he abandon plan B even if what he was told was true? That would eliminate one option to commission. Service academies are great, but tough to get into. Every year great candidates don't get in. If he really wants to commission he should keep all options open.
Click to expand...

Looking at quote above slightly differently, I have read on here a few times that USNA looks at NROTC app similar to whether the candidate applied to all available nom sources. It helps prove desire to commission rather than simply desire to go to prestigious school, and shows they did everything possible to do so. I've read posts on here where a few stellar resume candidates lament their non appt, when the only blemish (to me) was not applying to NROTC as well.
 
My son didn't make it in his first round of Academy applications, so he chose to "walk on" as a college programmer for an NROTC unit, and apply for a scholarship while a Freshman. He also still wanted to take another shot at the Academy, so put in an application for that round.

He did win an NROTC scholarship, was doing well in his unit, and was looking forward to doing both NSI (NRTOC's boot camp) and CORTRAMID (the NROTC equivalent to what rising 3/C do during the summer called PROTRAMID at the Academy) over the summer. But, he ended up getting pulled off the waitlist for USNA and offered an appointment. He dropped the NROTC offer, and reported for I-Day instead.

He was happy with his NROTC unit, and would gladly have continued on that route to commissioning. And he was already talking with various people about how to get into the community he wanted (flight) through NROTC. The doors to the different communities were certainly still available there.
 
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