On AFROTC scholarship and not selected for EA??

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by MicheleRN, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. MicheleRN

    MicheleRN New Member

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    My son is on an AFROTC scholarship and is currently a second semester sophomore. He feels his chances of getting picked up for EA are very slim as his scholarship is currently on suspension. His grades this semester are very good, so I feel it will be reinstated........however, if he is not selected for summer filed training, I guess it won't matter. What will happen then? Will he be disenrolled all together? And if so, is the disenrollment immediate?? In other words, would he be asked to stop coming to class and turn everything in in the middle of the semester when the results come out in March/April? I seem to remember from the parent meeting, if the cadet "messes up" or chooses to "walk away", he may have to pay back with time (enlistment) or money. However if he is in good standing and does not get picked up for FT, is that it? He feels he will just be disenrolled and doesn't want to ask those hard questions now. My husband and I are trying to prepare financially so we would like to have an idea. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help answer my questions.
     
  2. JeRDLe

    JeRDLe Member

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    If he is not selected for field training, the most likely option is Cadre will say "thanks for participating." Scholarship drops, and he will just be kicked out of the program at the end of the semester.
     
  3. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    There are other options available which I'm sure Pima will outline for you if she reads this. Your son needs to talk to his command to see what options are open to him before they just decide for him.

    Disenrolled is a much better term then Kicked Out.

    If disenrollement due to not getting SFT happens he will not, to my knowledge, be required to pay back the first two years, as long as he met all the min. requirements.
     
  4. danielk5352

    danielk5352 Member

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    Incorrect, unfortunately he WILL have to pay back the scholarship money. A disenrollment investigation will occur and likely be disenrolled or given the option of returning as a 500 where he will become a "200" again and reapply for an EA the following year (but still paying back the scholarship money). The likelihood of being forced to active enlisted duty are slim to none since a RIF is already occurring.

    As for just dropping AS classes, he will have the opportunity to do so since he is no longer in the program. But those classes will appear as an F if his AS and LLAB is considered college credits.
     
  5. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Just so I'm clear.

    Why would there be a disenrollment investigation if he was not selected for EA.

    If the cadet is not selected for EA are you saying that they will be required to pay back the first 2 years of the scholarship.

    If that's true, considering only around 55% of AFROTC cadets are selected for EA, why would anyone ever risk taking an AFROTC scholarship.

    Sorry to ask but this is the first time I've read that you have to pay back the scholarship if you don't get EA.
     
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I have never heard of DE investigation for those that did not get SFT in the terms you are setting, but I am sure we are both on the same page. It has been sorry, collect your things don't report next fall, not sorry write me a check or enlist. They are in until the end of their college semester. Remember although ROTC is only 1 credit, it is still a credit, plus for some it is not an automatic decision of being rolled over to a 500, it has to go through a chain and the command must support them for this decision. Just like scholarships, some will be def in, some will be out, and some will be on the fence. For those that the command says I will not support you, many voluntarily dis-enroll because it is an uphill battle that in this day and age unlikely for them to win. For the others they will stay.

    This OP did not commit a crime, or an academic infraction, such as plagarism, they didn't cut the grades, and even from the OP we don't know how badly he was off from the min 2.8 cgpa, was he at 2.6, where he pulls a 3.2 he is back on target, or was he at 1.8, all we know is he expects to be reinstated. Now maybe you are thinking he will not be academically re-instated, and in which case this becomes an issue from a disenrollment with the SFT twist. If he is able to really pull the grades up, and show that the low cgpa was just a fluke or adjusting to college, they may allow him to remain and go 500. Most likely his major will play into this equation...tech/non-tech

    DS's had a friend who voluntarily dis-enrolled upon returning from SFT. This cadet did go through an investigation, because as soon as you complete SFT you are a POC, and now you owe. He was on scholarship and told pay up 36K or you will have to enlist. The reason why is he voided the contract.

    Additionally, as far as the RIF goes, the AF looks at yr groups and ranks. I would never say it is slim because the yr groups they are hitting were 2007-2010 for officers. I would assume that they hit the yr groups the same way for enlisted because they are still recruiting enlisted. This means they have a choice take that fresh out of HS kid at 18 or take the college kid at 20, as I said they still need new recruits. Plus, tell that to gojira, granted gojira's DS is Navy, but they too are cutting back and her DS was told that he would go enlisted.

    That being stated I am not sure how that works, whether they allow them to defer for 2 yrs and complete college or let them go reserves until they finish college. I would think that they would allow them to go reserves where he does the monthly drills and 2 weeks in the summer until graduation and than finish up the time AD.

    To me as a parent the bigger concern is how will you pay for the remaining yrs at college?

    Like Jcleppe stated, no parent in their right mind would tell their 17 yo to take a scholarship, especially a type 1 if it meant in 2 yrs at no fault of their own they would have to pay back tuition at a school like Duke or VT OOS. Most scholarship recipients, even Type 7, receive mega buck scholarships from colleges. If they told our DS that; he would be at UMiami because their merit scholarship for him was 100K or at UNCCH as an IS with 32K in merit (basically the same as AFROTC since that was IS tuition for 4 yrs). He still would have done AFROTC, but not placed that burden on himself by selecting an OOS college.

    Remember you are contracted as a cadet on scholarship, but the 1st two yrs are walk away yrs owing no time. You are a GMC. When you are a 300 you are a POC, and now the signature paper is different. This is when they give you a CAC card. This is when they pay you yr round that monthly stipend, not just while you are in school.

    Finally, they do not force AFA cadets as Freshman to pay back financially or enlisted if they leave, who on earth would they force an AFROTC cadet to do so? I understand this is a sophomore, but they have yet to go to SFT. If this cadet was a Type 7 converted to a 3 yr Type 2, they would only be on scholarship for 1 semester, just like a C4C at the AFA.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  7. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Oops forgot to add why they would decide not to force them to pay back for SFTs on scholarship.

    2 yrs ago, when the RIF was already starting up, with VSP, a cadet in our DS's det., scholarship, went to SFT, solid cgpa, with his AFSC was told 3 months prior to commissioning, good bye.

    The AF had decided this was an over manned field and did not need him...akin to SFT selection, right? He didn't do anything wrong, it was the AF's decision, they voided the contract.

    He walked free with no payback to the scholarship and no time served as an enlisted. He did go an join ANG the next day and was commissioned through them.

    If they are willing to allow cadets after 4 yrs to walk that were on scholarship, and who contractually they could have made pay back, the same would be true for SFT. They would let them walk.

    It is not a good morale booster for 1st semester 18 yos to be told minute one on arrival at AFROTC, call the folks tonight, even if you pull a 3.4, but aren't selected for SFT, get the money ready or I have to enlist. It would place so much stress on them it would be insane, as it is you see these kids worrying about SFT knowing they could lose the scholarship, add in having to pay 36K more and kids would live in constant fear. As a parent that would be why we would say no. Go to another college where you received merit money and do AFROTC there.

    Scholarships are recruitment tools, especially for expensive colleges or nationally known state, like VT. Doing this in one fell swoop would hurt these programs immediately. They would have less students in the program.

    Worse yet since many kids apply for A/NROTC along with AFROTC, and since those two do not have the pay back 1st 2 yrs, parents again would say how about AROTC or NROTC? Sad to say, but they will nudge, even if it is to say, look if you go AFROTC to this school and don't get SFT, you have to leave and we have to find a way to take loans to repay so you don't enlist. We could have found a way to do 2 yrs, but we can't do 4. The child will go to a sister service at the school.

    This would not be wise for AF Officer recruiting.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  8. riroka

    riroka Member

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    I thought with AROTC only the first year was a no payback? I was under the impression that the second my son stepped back on campus for sophomore year he would owe if he walked away.
     
  9. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Your correct.
     
  10. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    So, just to get clear in my own mind, because there have been some perhaps confusing but correct answers to partial questions...

    If YOU walk away from AFROTC during 2nd year, or are dropped for non-performance, you pay back tuition (or enlist at option of AF). If AFROTC drops you because you did not make cut for SFT while still meeting contract requirements, you DO NOT pay back tuition.

    Do I have this correct?
     
  11. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Sorry for the confusion, My answer above was to riroka regarding Army Rotc.

    From what PIMA posted I think you are correct regarding AFROTC, I say that with great reservation because I know nothing about AFROTC other then if I think about it to much my head spins.
     
  12. danielk5352

    danielk5352 Member

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    If YOU walk away from AFROTC during 2nd year, or are dropped for non-performance, you pay back tuition (or enlist at option of AF).
    Correct. There is something called the freshman option. This is where if a cadet decides sometime in their 100 year that they do not want to be in the program and is on scholarship, he/she does not have to pay the scholarship money back.​

    If AFROTC drops you because you did not make cut for SFT while still meeting contract requirements, you DO NOT pay back tuition.
    Like Pima said, there are some circumstances where cadets will not be required to enlist or pay back the scholarship (RIF). But not being picked up for SFT is a sure indication that the cadet isn't meeting some aspect of the selection formula i.e. (PFA, GPA, Leadership capabilities, non-performance, etc). In this case, cadets will be required to pay the scholarship money back.​
     
  13. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I guess that part doesn't make sense to me. It's possible to meet the contract requirements (minimum requirements met at least in some areas while exceeded in remaining area) but not get picked up for SFT, at least as I understand it. In this case it's AFROTC that's terminating the contract and not the cadet, so I don't understand why tuition repayment is required in this case. :confused:

    I DO understand it if not picked up for SFT when some aspect of the contract is not being met. In this case the cadet is really being dropped for non-performance - so repayment of tuition makes sense.

    Just trying to make sure I understand here and something still does not make sense to me.
     
  14. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I think what he is saying is, There may be a reason a cadet does not get picked up for SFT, GPA below Min., PFA below min. In that case I could see how a cadet would be required to pay back the scholarship. I wouldn't doubt that in previous years making the Min. would mean you got a SFT spot. From what I've seen lately even cadets that are above the min. are not being selected for SFT. In those cases the cadet would not be required to pay back the scholarship.

    Your right though, it gets a bit confusing, interesting to learn how it works though.
     
  15. danielk5352

    danielk5352 Member

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    It is really odd how that works, unfortunately since EA's are not guaranteed for everyone anymore the minimum is not enough. The 2012 commissioning class was the first class to have a selection rate for SFT. Does NROTC have a similar process to "weed" out the weaker midshipmen? Thanks!
     
  16. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Somewhat, but it only applies to those not already on scholarship. Those who are not contracted must achieve Advanced Standing by their Junior year, or they are dropped from the program. Advanced Standing is achieved the same way an in school NROTC scholarship would be obtained. That is, the DoDMERB is done up fron and their application is reviewed for selection by a board. Of course the only monies involved at that point are the monthly stipend. Advanced Standing midshipmen do not get monies for books or tuition.
     
  17. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    We keep coming back to the devil in the details.

    Every scholarship cadet will be required to sign paperwork, and it lays it out there in black and white what is expected. Scholarship cadets are also required to sign if the regs change during college.

    They also for AFROTC sign as a C300 aka POC a new form and that is "If I bail, or do not meet the stds you can make me pay back or enlist".

    I think where this 200 issue is in the crux is because of the system in place that is different for every branch.

    If the 200 is selected for FT EA, but declines, HELL yes they will ask for it to be repaid. AF was willing to take them. They opted to leave, and void the contract.

    However, 200's can drop, but the fact is the drop will be in the fall 200 yr and so it is still completing 100.

    If the 200 has a 3.2 cgpa, 96 PFT, SAT 1240, and the mins accepted were 3.4, 97, 1300; the AF is not going to ask for the money back. The cadet did not fail to meet the mins established for the scholarship. The AF raised the bar, thus they voided the contract.

    For scholarship recipients, this is an important concept to understand. It is legally who voided the contract. This is also why they must be 18 to sign or have a legal guardian.

    Now, let's go back to the OP's question. Every det will place a cadet on probation to their standards, for all we know they received a 1.5 last semester as a soph, but their fresh yr it was 3.0. They may have placed them on probation for that fact. The question still arises from their post, they expect much higher gpa this semester. What is higher?

    The problem for them is Fall C200 was the absolute worst semester to have an academic issue. FT EA board meets Feb. They will be on probation, it will be an issue. The results will be released in the next few weeks when they are taking mid-terms. The emotional burden of non selection will weigh on them for weeks, along with the pressures of rolling into 500, and loss of scholarship. Academically, for many as they enter finals 8 weeks after the announcement they will spiral down, and it becomes a statistics issue.

    I think this thread has scared the bee gee gees out of AFROTC scholarship/candidates/cadets.

    Please don't. Follow the regs that they place forth in the letter. Just remember:

    If you elect to stay meeting or surpassing the criteria during the 200 yr., and are not selected you don't owe 36K. AF voided the contract. Assuming it is still up to 18K for 2's and 7's.

    If you elect to stay and tell them I am out when you are selected, you owe the money.

    If you attend FT, graduate, become a POC, you owe and/or may serve as enlisted.

    There are tiers.

    danielk5352,

    A/NROTC are different, and it starts with the scholarship selection process. Both of them tie the cadet/mid to a certain school, AFROTC does not. NROTC is like AFROTC and ties it also to the major, 85% STEM. NROTC requires, as far as I understand, that just like AFROTC Soph yr they must be contracted, and a board will determine this, just like FT EA. This is their EA board, do not pass, do not get paid 450 bucks a month, or whatever NROTC is and no commission from ROTC. If you use the EA, you will acknowledge nowhere in the point scale is scholarship recipient, maybe CC at best and probably why the system is changing to a cgpa base over the CC protection for rank on the rec base. However, for both, the fat lady sings in spring sophomore yr. when it comes to a military career path on college graduation day.

    NROTC IMPO blends both the AF and the Army, and that is why I think it is rightly so to say they are the most competitive in ROTC. Nobody flame me, remember I am an AFROTC Mom who is saying a sister service is harder.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  18. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    right, you're all talking about a WRITTEN CONTRACT. To understand what will happen, we need to see the details of the contract that the cadet signed.

    Who has a copy of the Air Force ROTC contract? I was able to Google and learn it is called an "Allocation Contract", but I cannot find a copy anywhere, including the very comprehensive Texas A&M AFROTC website which has a lot of official publications.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  19. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Thanks Pima. I think I have it straight in my head know. Now, if only old age will let me rememebr it! :biggrin:
     
  20. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    kinnem,

    This is also why AFROTC cadets accept the scholarships. They are told in writing you need this as a cadet.

    Fail to meet it and you void the contract.

    That gpa does not exist as a gee gollly bench mark try to hit it. It exists as a legal standard to cut you loose.

    Again read the contract. It gives more power to them than to your child/candidate.

    The loop holes for a cadet/mid to escape are much more stringent than for an A/AF/NROTC to cut that same cadet/mid.
     

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