Plan A-B-C-D

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by C/B Lattanzio, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. C/B Lattanzio

    C/B Lattanzio Prospective

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    Hey all, just wanted to bounce off my ideas about my collage plans.

    So, my plan A is the USNA, when I visited the campus I fell in love with the place, and have always wanted a service academy to go to, I love everything about the whole place, and have family in the Navy.

    For my plan B I would like the USMA, I used to an hour right next to it, and visited it allot, also many family friends ave attended the school, interesting me in it.

    For my Plan C I want to simply go to VMI, I think it's a nice school, visited it, and i like it.

    Plan D, is any ROTC / NROTC at a few collages.

    Thanks for reading!


    (Note : I didn't know where to put this, feel free to move this admin)
     
  2. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    Sounds pretty standard for here. What do you want us to say?
     
  3. C/B Lattanzio

    C/B Lattanzio Prospective

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    honestly, I don't know, just your opinions and thoughts.
     
  4. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I assume applications for Plans A - D are well underway. If not, get on it ASAP as you're already behind schedule. You need to be working plan D1 or E.... where you will go to a college you can afford without a ROTC scholarship probably doing NROTC as a college programmer.... and apply for a side-load scholarship spring of your freshman year.
     
  5. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    Good point. You definitely need to have a non-military plan in the works as well especially if you attend a private school.
     
  6. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but since he tagged his post "Class of 2019" wouldn't that make him a sophomore in high school right now. Of course my math could be off. I don't think he can even start any applications for Plan A through D yet.
     
  7. C/B Lattanzio

    C/B Lattanzio Prospective

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    Your math is correct.


    and kinnem, I can't afford any collage really, so ROTC would be footing most of the bill.
     
  8. Melitzank

    Melitzank Member

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    If you didn`t get into a SA or receive a ROTC scholarship, you could always go to community college for a year, and then reapply to them again.
     
  9. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Well, ROTC will only cover tuition, books and fees. So you need to have a plan to deal with room and board.

    In any case, you need a plan to address the lack of any scholarship.

    Further, since you are a sophomore in high school you've got plenty of time to get great grades and win some merit scholarships.

    And finally, there is always enlisting and going to college on the GI Bill. You always have to have fallback positions.
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Not only do you need to have a plan for Room and Board, but also what if you don't like ROTC yet love the college? Or vise a verse, love ROTC, but hate the college. How will you afford either scenario?

    For some this does become the reality in their life. ROTC does not commission 4 yrs later 100% of their incoming classes.

    Make sure in your plan you address with your folks how you will obtain the most important thing, which is a college education.

    You have a head's up because you have found this site and by the time you are a jr in hs., you will know what to expect regarding the process, which is an advantage when you start the roller coaster ride as a senior.
     
  11. EDelahanty

    EDelahanty Member

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    C/B Lattanzio:

    It's good to see you've developed goals and priorities. A few things to consider.

    The number of new AROTC scholarships appears to be down from the last decade, with new 4-year scholarships leading the decline. This assertion is based on anecdotal evidence from a small sample, not hard statistics from Cadet Command, and I welcome confirmation or disagreement (including facts on AFROTC and NROTC). Getting a scholarship would mean you would either (1) be awarded a three year scholarship in high school or (2) show up on campus and compete to earn whatever may be available. From a purely financial perspective, this gives an advantage to the service academies, which are already highly competitive.

    Many schools provide room and board assistance to ROTC cadets, ranging from partial grants to full cost. I'm not sure how this works for scholarship versus non-scholarship, but if only scholarship students get R&B from a particular school, then the timing of this aid should also be considered.

    We don't know how the situation will change three years out. World events that influence U.S. policy, including planning for military personnel requirements, are not easily predictable. The same applies to conditions in the U.S. economy, which affects personnel retention (the worse the economy, the more reluctant many are to leave).

    Even with reduced ROTC scholarships, there are many options and combinations to serve and pay for college. As others have said, the best thing you can do to put yourself in a position to succeed is work hard in school, participate in sports, and look for opportunities in your school and community to contribute and to lead.
     
  12. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Pima is absolutely right regarding this. DS's Old Salt was tossed last year for a DUI. Another scholarship MIDN in some unnamed unit was tossed as a freshman because he showed up for PT drunk. Hell, half the kids who showed up for freshman orientation each year are gone by the end of the year, if not by the end of orientation.

    But it's not just folks getting tossed. DS has 2 roommates. All 3 were in NROTC when they decided to live together last spring. One, a college programmer, dropped due to knee problems that developed and kept him from running. He switched from Marine Option to Navy Option as a way to make things easier physically, but it still didn't work out for him. He dropped over the summer. The remaining guy was on scholarship. I just found out over fall break that he withdrew at the end of September as he decided it wasn't the route he wanted to take to eventually end up in the State Department. (This was doubly stupid. Had he dropped over the summer he would not have had to repay the scholarship money he received. By showing up in Sept. he is now obligated to pay back all the scholarship money he got from the Navy). These were both hard working, intelligent and likeable kids. Both had already served as squad leaders and were doing quite well within NROTC. I like to believe that they made the right decisions for themselves but I often wonder.

    Anyway, point is it may not be for you, or you may do something stupid and get tossed. You need to always have a plan to complete college without a scholarship, whatever it might be. Hopefully you'll never need to execute it, but you sure don't want to be flummoxing around if and when you need to make these decisions quickly.
     
  13. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    At our DS's AFROTC unit class of 12, 100 entered in 08, 26 commissioned in 12.

    Many young kids believe that once you get a scholarship in hand or for that fact once you arrive at the unit the path is easy and that without a doubt you all will commission in 4 yrs., it is just not the fact.

    Nothing kills a kids spirit faster when the scholarship is hanging over their head regarding if it is the only way they can stay at the college. DS's friend went to SFT (aka AROTC LDAC), came home and decided there and then that the AF life was not for him. He was scholarship, thus he owed back 40K right away. He now also had to find a way to make up the 18K a yr in tuition, the 900 in book allowance, and 450 a month stipend. He was the ripe old age of 20 dealing with a big financial burden in front of him.

    He could have stuck it out, but he also realized that unlike college where it is 18 hrs of classes a week, 30 weeks a yr., AF was 40+ hrs a week, 52 weeks a yr for 4 yrs after graduation. He decided the commitment owed for 4 yrs was not worth it.

    Every child really needs to talk to their folks about what will happen in the what if scenario. You can't and shouldn't assume anything except that you are on the path that is right for you right now.

    You will feel better if you know that once plan A is in place,, there is a plan B in place for the What Ifs.

    You are a sophomore currently. My one big suggestion is to take the PSAT. Although some think it is not worth taking and go straight to the SAT, it is for one big reason. The only way you can become an National Merit Semi-Finalist is from the PSAT score. Colleges love NMSFs. They typically offer them merit scholarships, and some will offer a lot...it can range from 10K to 100K depending on the applicant. UMDCP has a program called the Banneker Key. These kids get 100% full ride, book allowance, computers, Ipods, best dorms, etc. How do you get to be a BK? Step 1 become an NMSF.

    Study for it. To become an NMSF you must score in the 95% percentile. The higher you score the more likely you will become an NMF. NMF bigger merit packages from colleges, such as UNCCH, UMDCP, PSU, NYU, etc. All of them have AROTC. These scholarships even small ones can be in joint with the ROTC scholarship, so in case ROTC doesn't work out, you still have an ability with loans and grants to stay at your dream school.
     
  14. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Pima, about how many of those 100 were on Scholarship? How many dropped in freshman or early sophomore year of their own accord? Of those left (I am going to guess about 50), how many were cut lat in sophomore year in the competition to get to SFT?
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    About 15% were on scholarship like the national avg of AFROTC scholarships awarded. 100 start C100, about 80 start C200.

    Now here comes the curve ball, The way SFT works is since as soon as they graduate from SFT, they now are all, but contracted, and owe time back. AFROTC in his yr group sent all of their cadets that were not contracted up for SFT for a DoDMERB exam. That cut their numbers down, and in the end 34 cadets went to SFT.

    The overall rate for his class selected was 55%, but as illustrated you can see how even the great academic ROTC cadet on paper may be dis-enrolled due to issues that have nothing to do with academics.

    As I stated his best friend came home from SFT he dropped. Several others also dropped, but since they were not scholarship, they were not contracted. The AF did not go after them to enlist due to the issue was they were already overmanned and except for SFT, they really did not financially invest in them compared to a scholarship cadet.

    The remainders that stayed, but did not commission with him, had other reasons, for example, a C500 will not graduate with the class in May. Gojira's DS is an example of this from the NROTC world, he was going to commission in Dec 11, which due to budget he would be put in the FY 12, not FY 11.

    Another reason why is prior to commissioning they do another physical, for the AF. There were some that were DQ'd. The yr prior to DS's graduation, there were a couple of kids that were brought in 60 days prior to commissioning and told, at this time we will not be offering a commissioning. At the time DS went to SFT, in 10, 3 C400's were told this exact thing. They had not only their career fields, but base assignment and tentative report date, sim. to Gojira's DS last Dec.

    The point is nobody here is part of Man Power for any branch, and none of us are psychic.

    DS always had plan B in place until he raised his hand and took the oath. He is an AF brat, and because of that + seeing cadets cut 60 days out he knew don't believe 100%, this is fact until you raise your hand and take the oath.

    A candidate that needs the scholarship to attend college needs to have plan B in place at all times. He needs to make sure that he gets enrolling in ROTC in Aug. 20XX does not equate to pinning on bars 4 yrs later.
     
  16. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    OK Just curious, these cadets you mentioned that were told that the AF would not be offering a commission, what did they do to get kicked out. Sounds like the AF just didn't have room at the inn, or had they not fulfilled their contracts as cadets.

    I was just wondering which it is, if the AF just let them go at the end because they didn't have enough commissioning slots, well...
     
  17. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    There was no room at the inn. As many people know AF had even cancelled OCS boards in July that yr too.

    They were on the low side of the cgpa scale @3.0, but it wasn't academic reasons.

    This also ties into why you should have a plan A, B, C and D for career fields, because if that career field is why you are selecting a particular branch, you just don't know in 4 yrs if they are going to offer you your dream job.

    For AFROTC many know that @80-85% of all scholarships go to tech majors. Some candidates will opt tech for a better chance of getting a scholarship. Those majors can impact your career field. For example, back in 2010 ME's were allowed to go rated, even in DS's class for 12 they had 1 ME that was selected for UPT. For 13 if you were an ME you were not allowed to apply for the rated board due to the fact that this was now considered a critical manning AFSC. The kids that applied for a scholarship in 08 with the dream of flying found out that they will not fly.

    It happens, and it can flip that quickly, or in other words, while you now are in so deep that you can't quit and decide to take another path.
     
  18. Tgun

    Tgun Member

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    Good point to remember. However, also realize that your first career field (Air Force Specialty Code: AFSC) is not necessarily your last...

    Let's say you graduate with a major in one of the Air Force Critical Career Fields (Mechanical Engineering for example). AFPC (Air Force Personnel Center, Randolph AFB TX) assigns you to an Engineering position at Wright-Patterson AFB even though you picked a rated (flying) career field as your first through sixth choices.

    Are you stuck with never becoming a pilot for the Air Force? Heck no!

    I was told by the ROO for an AFROTC detachment that you only had to give two years in the career field before applying for another career field.

    So, you do your two years as an ME at WPAFB in an exemplary fashion, then apply for a transfer to a rated pilot position. Of course, there are no guarantees, but most likely you would have a good shot (again, depends on the needs of the Air Force).

    As long as you don't bust the UPT age limits, and are physically qualified, you should be a solid rated pilot candidate.

    Here is some information on UPT Age Limit for the Air Force:

    "Must meet a selection board before age 28 1/2. Must enter Undergraduate Flying Training (UPT) before age 30".

    So, you see there are options to still become a pilot. Remember, you most likey will only be 22-24 years old when you graduate, commission, and report to your first duty assignment, so there is plenty of time. :thumb:
     
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I am not saying the chances to convert won't exist later on in their career, I am just saying that don't enter saying I am going AFROTC to become a fighter pilot.

    Your goal should be to wear the blues as an officer.

    Old joke:

    You know what they call a 1st Lt. pilot? LT!

    You are 1st an officer.

    There are so many hoops that you must jump through before you become a pilot/WSO/ABM, etc. Statistically it makes the % of entering ROTC and commissioning look like it is 100%. @30% bust IFS. 30% of the remaining 70% bust UPT. 5-10 of the remainder will get fighters. Basically for our DS's class that had 13 UPT slots, If you do the math, 1 might get a fighter. His class started with 100 cadets in 08.

    Tgun,

    I thought you were going to go off in a different direction regarding it might not be your last. To be promoted in the AF you will fly a desk.

    Your education does not end after college. You will need PME and preferably in residence.

    Also as far as you only have to do 2 yrs., there is a flaw in your scenario. To attend UPT from the AD world, you would have to meet a board. To meet the board, your CC and Wing King would have to support you for that board.

    Here's the thing, many Navs, WSOs, ABMS will also apply and if there are any planes at the base you are stationed at, than it will be much more likely that they will not support you, but them instead for a couple of reasons.

    I will use my friend's DS as an example. He is going OCS next summer after he graduates, he already has a CSO slot. He wants to be a pilot.

    He will be 23 when he graduates, (CE major). By the time he reports to UNT after OCS, he will be nearing 24. UNT is 49 weeks, so he will be 25 when he graduates. Add in SERE and Water Survival + at least 6 months for FTU, if all of the class dates align, he will be 26 when he reports to his 1st Op tour. It takes 45-90 days to become MQ. at least a yr to make IWSO/INAV. That puts him at 27. The board process takes about 6 months from start to finish...pushing up the paperwork, meeting the board, board results. Now he is 27 1/2. Gets a RNLTD 6 mos. later. He is now 28.

    The Wing King is going to look at that because as you stated he is getting very close to the edge, especially if the board only meets 1x a yr. It would mean he only has 2 tries.

    Now that same WK looks at the 25 yo, and says not only does he have 3 more yrs., but also he has no flight experience. I can only give 1 rec that says my #1 choice, send to UPT now. Who does he select?

    ~~~I am assuming there is no critical manning issue at this time.

    Bullet was a WSO and every yr. there was always someone picked up for UPT, but the truth is that 1 or 2 people picked were hitting the age ceiling. I don't recall a WSO not getting selected and a non-rated getting it.

    I agree with you totally that it happens. Col. Mike Goode is a great example. I am just saying don't assume it will be within 2 yrs. Mike was an EE, and he was a Capt. when selected for UNT. He was at the age ceiling. He went onto having an amazing career. Got a F111, went to TPS, picked up by NASA, and was an MS on the Shuttle to repair the Hubble.

    The final thing also to remember is how the rated board works. You place your 3 choices in rank order, but it doesn't mean you will get your 1st choice...i.e. look at my friend's DS and Mike Goode, both did not score high enough on the OML to get their 1st choice of pilot.

    Again, using our DS's class.
    They had 100% selection rate of their application pool*.
    13 commissioned rated, 14 were selected.
    12 orig. got UPT
    1 got CSO
    1 got RPA

    ~1 lost her slot because of sitting height...too short
    ~1 kept her slot, but has already been tracked heavies because she can't be in an ejection seat, due to her sitting height
    ~CSO got that slot because he messed with his eyes(PRK) and was DQ'd for pilot...he would have made it without the surgery, believed he would have a better shot with the surgery
    ~ RPA selectee found out 3 weeks prior to commissioning he was being picked up for UPT.

    The point is even at the very end things can and will change.

    * Caveat, for rated board you must take the TBAS, and at his school the CoC determined if they would allow the cadet to take the TBAS. Basically, if they felt that their PCSM was not going to be competitive, they didn't send the cadet for the test. They saw it as a waste of AF dollars. Rule of thumb DS was told when he was a SR in HS and met the cadre, if you have a 3.2 cgpa, 95 PFT, you have a 95% chance of going rated.

    It remained true yrs later when he was a jr up for AFSC.

    Back on track. Just remember, especially for AROTC where it is not 100% guaranteed like AF/NROTC of AD life, always have a plan B, C, and D in place at all times.

    That is what AD life will be like for as long as you are in it. At the end of your 1st tour you will submit your dream sheet for your next assignment. It is basically your plan A, B, C and D. You will repeat this as long as you are in the military.
     

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