Prinicipal Nomination Method

Discussion in 'Nominations' started by goldfarb1, Oct 16, 2010.

  1. goldfarb1

    goldfarb1 Candidate

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    My district nominates a principal and then alternates. There are two spots open at the academy (potentially three). My question is how someone with an LOA or NAPS plays into this.

    There will only be about 15 people applying to USNA in my district. One is at NAPS now and another has an LOA.

    1. Will an individual from NAPS need the principal to get the appointment? Or could they get an alternate and still get an appointment?
    2. If an individual has an LOA, can they get an appointment with an alternate or do they still need the principal to get the appointment?

    I'm just trying to get an idea of whether its realistic that I'm in the running for a principle based off of these circumstances. Of course I'm applying to all nomination sources and will put 100 percent into the interview, but I would like to remain realistic.
     
  2. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    Hi!

    Okay...this is convoluted and a bit complicated but...let me try to sort it out...at least from my knowledge re: USAFA.

    First and foremost realize that an LOA is granted by the academy and NOT a Member of Congress. The nomination is granted by the MoC.

    That being said, if the MoC doesn't give the LOA recipient a nomination, then the academy is going to have to find them a nomination, the MoC is under absolutely NO obligation to nominate an LOA recipient.

    So...assume the MoC doesn't give the "principal" to the LOA recipient, but they instead receive the #3 nomination. The principal will recieve an appointment provided they meet the minimum criteria required by law. The rest of the nominees will go into the "qualified alternate" pool.

    From the QA pool, quite a few appointments will be made. The SA will have to figure out how they "rack and stack" the QA's. I would "assume" they would rack and stack their "LOA's" pretty high up the list!

    So...the LOA will most likely NOT have a problem, as long as they have received a nomination.

    Does that make sense?

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  3. jumprope_11

    jumprope_11 USNA 2015

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    so are you saying that the LOA takes advantage over the principle nomination for receiving the appointment?
     
  4. CandidateElias15

    CandidateElias15 USNA '15 Appointee

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  5. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Not "over" but "in addition to."

    A LOA is a conditional appointment. More often than not, the "condition" is obtaining a nomination.

    If Congressman X uses the Principal Nominee method, he can give his Principal Nomination (who, if qualified MUST be appointed) and give the other 9 to other candidates, some (or all) of which may have LOAs that "guarantee" their appointment (as much as one can be guaranteed, of course).

    For more info, you can view this publication from the Library Of Congress/Congressional Research Service - http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/2687
     
  6. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    An LOA is simply a piece of paper handed out by an SA...

    A nomination is given by a MoC and is required for admission to the academy. Without one, it doesn't matter if you have an LOA, etc., you can't enter.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  7. goldfarb1

    goldfarb1 Candidate

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    Alright thanks for the info. I just have to get the fact that if someone has an LOA doesn't mean they get the nomination.
     
  8. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    That is EXACTLY TRUE. An LOA is as the initials stand for an "ASSURANCE" of an appointment, "IF" your application is 100% complete, you are physically, medically and academically qualified, AND you receive a nomination. The receiving the nomination can still be the "Tricky" part. Maybe your senators and representative NEVER share information with each other, and when they all see the notice saying you have an LOA, they each assume one of the other MOCs will give you a nomination, so they use their nominations on others. Or maybe you received a presidential, JrROTC/ROTC, or similar non-MOC nomination, but the "Allotted" number allowed has already been given out. E.g. They already gave out the 20 JrROTC/ROTC or 100 Presidential appointments, so they can't USE that nomination for your appointment.

    There are way too many "IF's". That is why it's important to get as many nominations as possible. That's also why I have ALWAYS recommended (For those who are potential LOA candidates - "You know the type of applicant I'm talking about"), that you get your application done as soon as possible. (August-September). This way if you do have one of those low allotted nominations, like the JrROTC/ROTC, presidential, etc... that once the board convenes, they are more likely to not even give you the LOA. They'll give you the early appointment. (There's quite a few applicants who receive appointments in October/November).

    Remember Also!!!!! THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!

    If you have one of these non-MOC nominations, such as the Presidential, JrROTC/ROTC, etc...., and you received that nomination before the boards started to convene, AND your application was completed early before the board started to convene, AND you received an LOA AFTER the board started convening. (Meaning the end of October to November); then there's a good chance that the nomination you had/have, the allotted slots were given out, and you need to get ready for those MOC interviews. But, for the vast majority of applicants who will only qualify for a MOC nomination, keep in contact with your MOC/Their Staff. Be ready for the interviews. Let their staff know that you have an LOA if you do have one. They most likely already know, but it doesn't hurt to let them know that you still really need a nomination. Best of luck. Mike....
     
  9. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    Since this thread concerns USNA applications, please allow me to jump in here. What Christcorps is explaining here is perhaps an USAFA policy, not a USNA one. USNA will never never allocate all NROTC/Presidential slots prior to the closing deadline for applications. They may allocate a very very few. So, not that it is important or there is anything you can do about it, please do not make any assumptions in regards to receiving something and not something else. As those are aware who have watched these processes a few years, USNA usually holds out longer before making appointments or any other decisions, for that matter.

    For example, USNA has a policy never to award appointments to college students until after the end of their first college semester. Therefore, college ROTC appointments WILL NOT be awarded until, at the very earliest, January.

    But still, continue the pursuit of ALL nominations available. Don't assume that any nomination of any type is yours for the asking.

    Again, for USNA, the MOC staff will most definitely know of the LOA. They are tied into the CIS and the same keystroke that triggers the letter also notes on their portion of the CIS that the LOA has been awarded. So, my advice, for USNA interviews would be to ignore telling anyone about the LOA. If the staffers want the board to know, they will tell them (or allow at least the chair access to the CIS). Sometimes telling the board that one "really" needs a nomination doesn't quite come off as intended.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  10. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    Good info here Mongo!

    While we all try to pass along great information, it's nice to know the DIFFERENCES between the SA's!

    CC's correct re: USAFA. Nice to know the USNA differences. I'm sure there are probably differences with USMA/USMMA...and USCGA has their own method of appointing that I can't begin to understand! :biggrin:
    (Hey, they're the only folks that did NOT offer me an appointment after two years of trying...I was an alternate!)

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  11. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    I assume you mean the following:
    So what I hear you saying is that if a candidate with a Presidential nomination receives an LOA to USAFA it is only because all the Presidential appointments have already been awarded. This, I assume, would additionally mean that his Presidential nomination would no longer meet the LOA criteria for obtaining A nomination. Does the AFA LOA letter in these instances stipulate an other than Presidential nomination being required?
     
  12. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    No, the LOA doesn't stipulate the type of nomination. And to be honest, we are discussing a unique and extreme and small situation. In the air force, if your application is 100% complete, and you have a nomination prior to the board meeting, (Non-MOC nomination), then it is "ALMOST" impossible for you to receive an LOA. If you were that good, that an LOA normally would have been given out, then you would have gone straight to an appointment. More often than not, if you have your application completed prior to the board meeting, and you have a non-moc nomination, you'll either get an appointment or nothing early, and will be competing like everyone else. The air force doesn't give out that many LOA's. I didn't look at last year's stats, but the last time I looked, there were about 135 given out. (Not counting athletic related).

    My comment was on the precept of many of the non-moc nominations that has been the topic of discussion lately. e.g. JrROTC/ROTC. "Theoretically", you could receive an LOA, even if you had a nomination. This would simply mean that the limited allocation of appointments authorized for the nomination you received, were simply used up prior to you receiving your ALO. But admittedly, this is extremely rare.

    The normal scenario for an individual who completes their application prior to the review board, and they also have a non-MOC nomination is either: 1) They receive an early appointment as soon as the board reviews their package; OR 2) They will be competing with their district, state, and/or the national pool. As with any of the academies, the academy has a lot of experience from past selections. As such, they can usually tell when they have an applicant that is in the 10% club. These are the ones they offer LOA's to or direct appointments if they already have a nomination. This is a very small number of applicants.
     
  13. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    So what would happen to one of these "small numbers" whose MOC chose not to award a nomination since they already had an LOA?
     
  14. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Well, if a person had an LOA but couldn't get a nomination, we all know the answer. They wouldn't receive an appointment.

    I think I know where you're heading. E.g. Applicant has a JrROTC/ROTC Nomination; they receive an LOA in October/November "Instead of an appointment", because the academy already offered 20 appointments using the JrROTC/ROTC nomination, and now the individual with the LOA is looking for another nomination. If the MOC doesn't give them a nomination, are they screwed. Basically, yes. Is that a flaw in giving early appointments/LOA before ALL applications have been received? Yes. But that is a very small possibility.

    Reality: The academy doesn't give that many LOA's, and rarely would they give an LOA to an individual with a Non-MOC nomination. They'd either give them an appointment, or they would wait until the MOC nominations were completed. Then, they would fill the MOC appointments, the Non-MOC appointments, and then the national pool.

    I gave this as an extreme possibility/example. I had one applicant about 3-4 years ago. He went to a military school back east and was moving back to wyoming. He received a nomination as an Honor Military school; which is the same category as the JrROTC/ROTC. He received an LOA because he was waiting still on a medical waiver. (Without the medical issue, he most likely would have received the appointment without the LOA procedure). It took until almost January for his Medical issues to be resolved. Unfortunately, by then, the 20 slots for honor schools/JrROTC/ROTC had been given out. I believe he still got it. He wound up going back east and I believe he did receive a nomination from that state's MOC. (He was a resident of that state for the prior 4 years; just came back to Wyoming because his parents moved here). But anything is possible in the selection process. Even though the air force might give out some LOA/Appointments using Non-MOC nominations early, and before all authorized applicants have finished their applications, I believe they have enough years of experience with the selection process to be pretty efficient in the selections.
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    We have many ALO/BGO/MALO's on this forum.

    So, let's get their actual opinion. How many LOA's with even a JROTC/ROTC nom have they met or known of that did not get an apptmt if they were triple Q?

    I find this discussion very interesting, because anyone in the system knows that to get an LOA you need to be at the top of the game.

    This is all BS. A candidate scores high enough to warrant an LOA by the SA is now not high enough to get the congressional nom?

    C'MON! BS FLAG! Are posters implying that the MOCs can see more than the SA regarding their profiles? AGAIN C'MON! These cadets need reality not what ifs!


    Now, I think all of us need to be re-taught the system, because this is how I always understood it. You need the nom to get into the system, but the system can appoint you without charging that nom. Thus, if you have an LOA, and the only REQUIREMENT is a nom, and you have a JROTC nom, than they fulfilled the requirement. It does not mean their apptmt is charged to JROTC, it means that they have an LOA, and got a nom, thus, they got an apptmt. Correct me if I am wrong...you have an LOA, get only one MOC, you still get in even though the MOC is not charged?

    Charging the source is different than being the nom source.

    Flame on, I have no bone in this fight, just saying it seems like the fight is now gone to the point of 1% of 1% of 1%.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  16. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    You are correct pima; or at least to my understanding; that the qualified alternates that the academy appoints to fill the class do need nominations, but those nominations aren't charged. Matter of fact, is HAS TO BE THAT WAY. Why? Because if you add up ALL 465 representatives, and give each of them 1 for the year; throw in another 100 senators; throw in another 100 presidentials; 85 regular enlisted; 85 reservist; and all other nomination source allotments; you couldn't come to 1300-1400 appointees a year if you tried. That's where the qualified alternates come from.

    And you can't charge these alternates to the MOC's, or the MOC's would go past their 5 total at the academy in probably 2-3 years. So you are correct. The problem here, is that we're talking about LOA's and early appointments. These individuals are not the norm; they are extremely rare; and they are the top 10%. They are going to get their appointment if they are qualified and have the nomination.

    The problem with our discussions here are that some branches of the academy don't give out LOA's the same as others. Also, it's still very important that you go for as many nominations as possible, because while any nomination can be used for an LOA, most applicants won't get an LOA. That means you have 3 groups of individuals that you have to compete with for an appointment. Individuals in your district; individuals in your state; and then the national pool of qualified alternates. And then the academies do have to take into consideration all the other factors about how many from a district/state are currently at the academy; how many of each nomination category are there; etc...
     
  17. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    Back to my original question. If a candidate with only a Presidential/ROTC nomination from a slate already full is offered a LOA and is not granted an alternate MOC nomination, he is ineligible for the national pool/qualified alternate list. The question still remains, is he an LOA who has the nomination as stipulated in his letter, yet has no avenue for admissions?

    Both you and Fleiger say this is possible. That a candidate can meet the terms of his letter of assurance yet not be in the position to be appointed because the academy has already filled the slots for the appointment for which he has a nomination.
     
  18. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    Okay folks...

    Let's try to quell this one quick because at least from a USAFA position, we are really starting to get into "proprietary" information that is NOT for general release. I have that from a phone call to USAFA/RR at 12:54pm today.

    That being said...and I used this exact scenario: "Candidate has either a Presidential or JrROTC nomination but was NOT selected as one of the 100 Pres Nom Appointee's or one of the XX JrROTC appointees (apologies, I forgot the precise number authorized) then are they out of luck and not qualified for the "qualified alternate" pool?"

    Answer: "NO. They are placed in that pool. However...they will not be selected until all other legally required slots are filled (MoC's, VP, etc.). Then after all those slots are filled, whatever is left to complete the class, they would be eligible for one of those slots.

    I then posed the question: "If a candidate has an LOA but has not received a nomination, what is their status?" Answer: They are not eligible for appointment.

    We then discussed what the academy does when they award an LOA, etc., but that starts to get into proprietary information I was asked NOT to post openly.

    Lastly, if you read my post to indicate that a person with an LOA and a nomination could be in a position of NOT being eligible for entry (assuming they are qualified medically, etc.), then either I really mis-phrased it or you misread it. What I meant to say was that there are and have been candidates with an LOA that did NOT receive a nomination and THEY were ineligible for appointment.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  19. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Steve; thanks for getting the info. It definitely gets complicated at times. But I think applicants, AND WE, put too much emphasis on LOA's, when in fact, they tend to be "The exception to the rule". Then, it complicates matters more, when army gives out LOA's prior to the application being completed; air force giving out LOA's ONLY after the application is 100% completed, minus a nomination and DODMRB qualification; and Navy gives out very few LOA's.

    This forum tends to draw in the "More Qualified and More Motivated" applicants. I think that's why we'll see threads started, and added to, with a list of forum posters who have received an LOA or an early appointment. This forum is obviously not representative of the 10,000+/- applicants and their packages.
     

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