Pro's / Con's

Salj,

Agan my apologies if this is coming off as an attack. I do think you add value to these discussions, and your voice is appreciated here. I guess we ALL learn a little bit from each other's opinions.

I think this thread, while serving a useful purpose, has reached the end of that purpose. Time ot move on to a different discussion.

I ask that you please stay and join in these discussions. I know I want you to... Bullet
 
If just interesting that the people who get bent out of shape the most on these threads are the parents. Parents with cadets in their first year, at that. It's as if you feel like you STILL need to defend them from the big mean nay-sayers....stop! You care more about it than your kids and your kids can take care of themselves.

I work with other academy grads (of other academies), ROTC grads, OCS grads....the friction your "creating here" has little place in the actual military, rarely rears its head at a service academy, and frankly rarely concerns actual cadets/midshipmen.
 
just a mom, and others who agree with the general idea of what she just said: personally, I highly respect and take to heart what Pima, Christcorp, and Bullet all have to say. I do not think they are trying at all to discourage any of us from going to the AFA, but rather using their experience as Air Force leaders to tell us exactly how it is. Too many people on these forums sugar coat what is really going on, but these 3 people seem to genuinely care that we future cadets have a truthful understanding of what we are getting into, and for that I am extremely greatful.
 
13ryan13 said:
just a mom, and others who agree with the general idea of what she just said: personally, I highly respect and take to heart what Pima, Christcorp, and Bullet all have to say. I do not think they are trying at all to discourage any of us from going to the AFA, but rather using their experience as Air Force leaders to tell us exactly how it is. Too many people on these forums sugar coat what is really going on, but these 3 people seem to genuinely care that we future cadets have a truthful understanding of what we are getting into, and for that I am extremely greatful.
Click to expand...

:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:
agreed. ryan said it pretty well so i wont attempt to add more of my own words. his are probably better than what i would have written
 
I completely agree with btown...

Not just those though, there are others.

From what I see, they mainly try to help us prospects and appointees out with their experience.
In the end, you are commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant, no matter what program. Pima or Bullet's posts have done nothing to sway me, except maybe make me more excited. Just a personal example.
 
I couldn't agree more with the three above me. I don't really have anythign else to say.
 
staring_contest.jpg
 
As a frequent "lurker" the information and wisdom on this site has been invaluable. Everyone here has a breadth of experience that we, as a non-military family lack, and I am thankful for it.
I have 6 children, five of them boys, and suffice it to say that am a parent who has had a difficult time with the mandatory selective service registration so to tell you that my son's quest to attend an SA is as sincere as they come is an understatement.
In addition, aside from my civilian professional admissions expertise I do not have value to add, so apart from a few posts I have remained relatively silent on this forum. However, my son does have an LOA to USAFA and is waiting for word from Navy so I try to glean as much information as I possibly can from reading what is out there. He is committed but I would be dishonest if I said that we have had many, many discussions, about whether or not this is the right thing for him.
I would ask several of the posters if they have been on candidate visits and had the opportunity to attend an in depth facility tour (for candidates and parents only). If you have, then you know that the emphasis that is put on the ACADEMIC facilities at both USNA and USAFA is significant during these events. When we visited USNA and went to the parent/mid forum, an accomplished firstie--the brigade commandant for the previous year's plebe summer actually-- spoke honestly and eloquently about her experiences in her four years at Annapolis. She openly admitted that not a day went by that she did not question what a "normal" college education would have been like for her. This was never her plan--it was something that "happened" because she was a recruited athlete. Did she have regrets? You bet--sometimes. Was this something she always wanted to do? NOPE! Was she committed to a life time of military service--probably not--but she couldn't say. She did know she wanted to go into astronautical engineering and she described seeing the USNA facilities for the first time and being in awe of the opportunities the mids had to participate in undergrad research--and this, as well as her professional training would prepare her to be a leader--they had her "at hello", she said. She liked the "price"--no one else was offering her a free ride--though she was admitted to some pretty competitive universities. It was, in the end the best decision she ever made.
Despite what some on this forum might describe as a poor fit for the academy based on her motives for attending, this mid has thrived and actually was quite typical of the mids my son met during his time there. This was the midshipman that admissions selected to speak to parents of kids with LOA's--they must have felt pretty good about her as well.
Much said here is congruous and spot-on with much of what we have experienced, have been told and believe to be true in our very very short time at this. Some of it though seems alarmist and extremely discouraging. And I have to admit, I am relieved my son has not been reading the posts by some on this forum. While they are rarely disrespectful toward SA's some of the content is very negative and frankly a bit defeatist. The references to widows and widowers, motives for attending that are not deemed acceptable, a USNA grad whose choice to serve in the reserves who is looked upon with confusion and disdain--all examples perhaps posted in good faith to give an honest picture of academy and military life but instead leave a negative perception and undermine information given by ALO's BGO's the academies, and mids and cadets.
The reality is that we can speculate -or speak from PAST personal experience , but only present cadet, mids, and commissioned officers (the people my son is speaking with these days) can tell the real story. And, regardless of what they are or are not supposed to say--they do tell it like it is..
My--again admittedly inexperienced perspective is that we all need to stop questioning these kids motives--this is a lengthy arduous process. They deserve a great deal credit for following it through to the end. There is a reason 9,000 + kids begin the app process and only approx 1500 end up receiving appointments. The attrition rate at these academies--and this is my area of expertise-- is really very, very low. If someone makes a mistake, if it is not for them, if the academic challenge is too great, if they are not officer material....no one's life is over. The academy and the former mid/cadet will go on. I, for one--and I never thought I would say this--am extremely impressed at the screening process and the thoroughness of the system. It seems to work--and work very well.
 
agreed RN mom

Rnmom:

I agree with you wholeheartedly...I was a lurker for a while.. then had some concerns and posted, then got some advice.. most was pretty good.. but I felt some things I read were very discouraging, not just to me, but to others as well. Some even wrote private messages that were not encouraging at all, not that I wanted sunshine blown up my skirt...after a while I decided that I would not tell my D read these boards because truth be told, there is wonderful info., but also a lot of opinions based on perspectives and to be honest I felt some ulterior motives? (You need to have a filter on and learn not to live and die by the opinion of others.. but to also look and find the valuable information. A little like gem hunting.) Possibly not, but I just got strange feelings from some of the posts on here.

My Dad is a Lt. Col (AF) who did 4 tours in Vietnam, his neighbors are both SA grads.. one West Point, one Annapolis. My uncle was a NA grad. So the proud grandpa talks about his granddaughter to his buddies.. I get encouragement from them when I feel I need it.

My D is fine.. She has stopped stalking the mailman is resigned to wait..she has done all her ROTC stuff.. WestPoint called and seems interested. It will work out how it is supposed to. I feel really bad for Lilly's son. I don't know why things work out the way they do sometimes, but, you know, how usually something more wonderful happens instead, we just can't tell right now.

What I really find interesting.. and also a little upsetting is that most of the "intense" posting on here seems to come from the women.

Later..
J
 
weathermom; you really hit on the answer. "PERSPECTIVE". If you put this thread aside, most posts are pretty much informative. Questions are asked about the application process, BCT, commissioning, and a whole host of Air Force/Military/academy related questions. But every once in a while, you get a thread started like this one. A Pro/Con type of question. Definitely a valid question. However, such a question is totally based on "Perspective". And because it's somewhat of a generic question about the Air Force Academy; it lends itself to naturally go into a lot of directions.

Because of this, you will get a lot of "Passionate" answers. Just because a person and/or post is passionate, doesn't mean it is intended to be meant negative or discouraging. Those who have gone beyond the academy, ROTC, OTS or Basic and have actually served in the military understand that there are all sorts of people serving for all reasons. They also understand that a lot of people have come into the military; various avenues; and did not really plan or want what they wound up getting themselves into. Those serving or who have served also understands that the military isn't just a job where if you don't like it, that you can just quit. You can't. Well, this culmination of different people, different motives, different attitudes, etc... affect how the mission is accomplished.

Because this is a forum designed around 17-18 year old high school students; it generally has a very positive atmosphere. MOST times; all the good things about the academy and military are talked about. There are so many positives that it's easy to talk about them. Unfortunately; when the "CONs" are discussed, it's difficult for those who have gone through the military (Any avenue) to not talk about the negative side. The reason we do it isn't to discourage anyone. Like the 4 young applicants, (Sorry, I don't consider those interested in serving their country as "Kids"), who posted on the last page attested to, they didn't feel DISCOURAGED. We speak of these negatives, because the negatives are the CHALLENGES. Whether or not a person wants to accept these challenges in order to win the PRIZE at the end, is what it's all about. Bullet, I, and others can speak of a lot of negatives; (Challenges) in the military. Many of the current cadets posting on this forum can speak of many negatives; (Challenges) currently at the academy. Whether or not an applicant is willing to ACCEPT these challenges is what's important. Is it worth it for what they receive in return?

Remember; the ultimate purpose of the academy, ROTC, OTS, and Enlistments isn't to provide young men and women a college education. It's to prepare them to be leaders to defend, lead, fight, and possibly DIE. We can definitely talk about negatives. We can talk about all those that we've served with who are no longer with us. But this thread is based around the pros and cons of the air force academy. But those same negatives (Challenges) can be found everywhere. It's whether or not the applicant wants to accept these challenges in order to get the "Prize" that's important. As I've said before; I personally don't care "WHY" a person applies to the academy, rotc, OTS, or enlisting. I do care that they are willing to live up to their responsibilities and obligations. If they are, then that's fantastic. As long as they are, then there is no WRONG or RIGHT reason for applying for the academy, ROTC, OTS, or enlisting. But for those who embrace these challenges, I believe they will have a more fulfilling experience. Whether it's just 4 years of school and 5 years of commitment, or if it's a 20 year career, or a 4 of 8 year enlistment. Best of luck to all those that apply. I hope you're able to reach your goals. And I hope that the academy and/or military will be able to help you to those goals. later... mike....
 
I just went back to the very first post on this thread (from what I believe is a high schooler), and from what I can see, very few understood the question.

He/she wanted to hear from "current and former cadets."

"Can some current and former cadets tell me some of the pros/cons of the academy?? "

I think this was an awesome question and it possibly would have had more awesome responses if we had left it up to CURRENT AND FORMER CADETS to answer.

This beauty of this forum (IMO) lies with the fact that we can get FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE from cadets/alum.

Please, let's not scare them away.
 
Just putting this out there--95% of what Bullet and Pima say rings true in this cadet's mind.

Each route has its pro's and con's. That's what this thread is about, USAFA isn't an exception.

Awkward Comparison time-------------------------------
I have friends in AFROTC. The programs are similar but different. That isn't to say that one program is superior. ROTC has the advantages of balancing work/personal life, financial management experience, and requires a lot of personal initiative/motivation to succeed. USAFA cadets get more training opportunities, better financial assistance, but we live a less "normal" life and are forced to perform at a certain level (which is both good and bad).
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Some people come for the wrong reasons...and there are wrong reasons. :)rant2:) NOW LET ME EXPLAIN. "Wrong" reasons get in the way of doing your job. Wrong reasons go against things like Service Before Self and Excellence in All We Do. Wrong reasons inhibit performance and destroy teams. Some people adjust from their "wrong" attitudes/reasons and make GREAT leaders despite their initial issues. Others come for all the "right" reasons, but lose sight of that and fail/underperform.

An example of a person with the "wrong" reasons would be a guy in my 4 degree squad. He came to play football...ONLY. There was no "Team" to him--there was only him. His values seemed to be more like "Sevice TO Self and Excellence in Football." Obviously, these attitudes got in the way of doing his duties, didn't win him any support from those trying to carry his weight in all the other areas of cadet life.

I've also seen examples of the opposite. When I came to my current squadron, I quickly labeled one cadet as cynical and out for themself. I was dead wrong. This cadet leads in a very different style than I do, but gets good results Where I Would not. Their leadership surprised me, and I am very happy to be on the same team as them.

Sometimes the "wrong" attitudes and reasons work for others. Sometimes they don't. What is a poor plan for me, might work for you. A lot of this massive "leadership lab" is about developing the skills and abilities that make YOU a better leader. The style that the cadet cited above uses doesn't work for me. I know that. My style doesn't work for him, either. However, We can both perform well when we use our own style of leadership.

Sometimes we can't immediately tell who has the "right stuff" :)frown: can't believe I just used that line). I think most people do know whether they possess the characterstics that would make them successful...at least at some level. The question for candidates comes down to this: Do you have the motivation and skills to make this place bring out your abilities and become great at whatever it is you do to make a positive difference? Do you want the challenge and the opportunity?
USAFA is a good fit for me. Your mileage may vary. Some things that are Con's for me, might be the biggest Pro's for others. Some things I readily accept might severely inhibit others. Some things that make others excel hinder me.
Fit is important. I applied to two other colleges. The one I had been interested in since 8th grade wouldn't have fit me. I didn't care for it, after visiting. Oddly, I really enjoyed a school that is nationally ranked for its unhappy students...that one actually fit better than the big, respected state U (at least, for me). However, when I visited USAFA, I came home with the thought "I don't know if I can make it, but that is the place I have to go to!" It was the place that seemed right to me.

Do as much research as you can. Visit the places you applied to. Decide for yourself what is right for you.
Others don't know you as well as you do.

-John

/rambling post
 
ahhhhh, nice post, Raimius! :smile: Pros and Cons through the eyes of a cadet. Now that's good information.

Thank you :thumb:
 
Yes, very good information. Thanks for getting this thread back on track!
 
LineInTheSand said:
Academy grads run the risk of looking "stuck up" "holier than thou" and "the boys club". This isn't because the vast majority are...it's because of a few people who go around, knocking rings and belittling fellow officers from various commissioning sources. It exists in every branch, from every academy.
Click to expand...

I'd like to expand on the truth in this statement and based upon my own experiences.

Service Academy graduates are, in general, held to a higher bar than the average ROTC officer simply because of the reputations the SA's have. That said, no junior officer has LESS expected of them because they are ROTC. In fact, one could say that the differences are more akin to the level of disappointment one sees when a SA graduate screws up as compared to an ROTC guy. Since you spent four solid years supposedly learning this stuff, it really is noticeable when you screw it up.

Needless to say, however, that if you almost fly your plane into a mountain because you're too busy playing Tom Cruise to be aware of your attitude and altitude, your academic pedigree won't matter a whit; you're going DOWN!

Service Academy graduates take some good-natured (and some not so good-natured) ribbing for three main reasons:

1) There are far more ROTC-types who were rejected by USxA than the opposite. Resentments and jealousies linger. I'm sorry, but facts are facts.

2) Sadly, there have been entirely too many USxA graduates who have lost sight of the fact that being an Alumni of a SA carries with it the responsibility to properly represent that SA while serving as an officer. This is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to how you treat YOUR PEOPLE. Some of the WORST officers I saw in my five years in the Fleet were fellow USNA Ringknockers, and they did plenty to give my beloved alma-mater a collection of black eyes. A short anecdote on this later...

3) There is a level of rivalry between ALL commisioning sources. It's always fun to witness a SA vs ROTC argument going on when a Mustang enters the room and puts BOTH groups to shame. (Of course, neither the SA's or ROTC get too many jokes about having to be sent to school to learn to eat with utensils prior to being comissioned, either... :thumb:)


Regarding the attitude of some SA graduates, let me tell you a story. This story is at the same time one of my fondest and yet one of my most painful memories of being an officer.

I was standing OOD underway on the midwatch (That's midnight to 4AM for you landlubbers). Not a ship or plane for miles around, and no evolutions to worry about. The standing orders were basically "Go that way and don't hit anything." In those conditions, it is common for a certain amount of friendly conversation to pass between the watchstanders as a means to pass the time.

I was chatting with my Quartermaster of the Watch (again, for you landlubbers, that's the guy with the charts who tells the OOD where he is on the planet........ NOT the shopkeeper). This guy was a super-sharp E-6 who knew his stuff cold, got along with almost everyone, and was highly respected. I liked him a lot. I was also one of the few people who actually took the time to learn how to properly pronounce his name, which was quite the mouthful!

As we chatted, I mentioned in passing that when I had been at USNA, something or other had happened. The look on his face was one of :eek:.

"YOU went to the Naval Academy, sir? YOU?"

"Uh....... yeah. Why?" :confused:

"I never would have thought it. You're too nice a guy."

As you can imagine, I was torn between :redface: and :biggrin: and :frown: and :mad:.

As the conversation continued, he relayed some stories about past run-ins with USNA alumni. I was horrified to think that anyone who could be so arrogant or nasty could have made it through, but they did, and ended up ruining it for guys like me. All I could tell him was, "Well QM1, all I can tell you is that there are more guys like me out there than you might think, and I hope you run into more of them, because it pains me to think of what the others are doing to us."

A few years back I remember USNA having a goal or somesuch of "Excellence without Arrogance". Great idea. One of the most brilliant things USNA ever did was to bring senior enlisted into the faculty (something woefully lacking back in my day).

I don't know how to conclude this, so I'll just shut up. :thumb:
 
Well I am returning from the woodshed...it is actually quite nice...quiet and a place to recollect ones thoughts:shake: Nobody jump I was not handed a yellow card, it was self-imposed:biggrin:

I thought about what I would write and I had various posts in my own mind, but they all came down to the same.

1. If you believe that I can scare any cadet away from the SA's you give me way too much power. If I did, then there was a nagging thought on their mind in the first place. It was never my intention to tip the scale.

2. Bullet and my intention (I will not speak for others because I am not married to them...found out last night some didn't know we are married...we are and I am proud of it) was never to do anything, but to remember where we stood 1 yr ago. In Feb., our beautiful DS was accepted to all of his ED schools and had his ROTC scholarship in hand. We were now facing the decision process without knowing his outcome for the AFA. It was never about anything more than what lifestyle would be the best FOR HIM. He was torn, he was unsure, all he knew was without a doubt he wanted to be commissioned in the spring of 12 as a 2nd Lt. AF officer, with the hopes of flying. HE made the decision to go ROTC, we would have supported him either way. We also would never change our opinion of ROTC if he chose the AFA (Bullet was an ROTC grad). There are only 3 people on this forum that has ever had the chance to speak in person to DS, Bullet and I are one, the other will remain nameless if they desire to. However, I know that this AFA cadet would say DS made the right choice. Do I believe they like and respect DS...YES...do I think in their eyes they know that DS would have made it but probably hated every second...YES...do I think that they believe DS would be a great officer...YES.

It was a personal decision and I find it repugnant that people take a leap he did it for certain reasons when none of them are true.

I would have loved somebody on this forum to have stated things that are being stated about the AFA a yr ago when our DS was weighing his options. Bullet and I went blindly and as parents were concerned that he would regret his decision, whichever path he chose.

3. If you have been here through 1 appt cycle you will notice that people will leave. Some of these candidates will not be offered an appt, they will not stick around if they feel that they are no longer competitive. I believe it is great that they can see that life doesn't end, and they can be an excellent officer as an ROTC grad. That sometimes unanswered prayers are the greatest gifts.

4. Do we believe the AFA is the best route for an AF Officer? Yes, but with a caveat, it is the best route for those who want to be there with the intention to serve as an AF Officer, not for any other reason. Yes, I know they all get that rank, but like Raimius stated some went for the chance to play ball. On CC Dartmouth there is a child who was offered AFA or Dartmouth, many non-millitary members chimed in and said the college matters more than playing ball. The parents stated he signed with Dartmouth, but his hs coaches were upset b/c the AFA is a better school for football.

Finally, I don't think anyone here could ever say that we aren't supportive of these kids. There was no need for me to send goodie packages except my love for our AF, and how I know from experience that mail call is very important. There was no need to take NC AFA parents association on a tour at SJAFB after our son accepted his scholarship...except for the understanding that WE ARE ALL AIR FORCE. There was no reason for Bullet to take time out of his day to go the flight doc for AFA cadets wanting to know the track to get into flight surgeon and gtting the flight doc to email them the route, except for the fact that WE ARE ALL AIR FORCE

I watched Bullet get handed his orders from the President thanking him for his service. I also have that big blue portfolio signed by Bush for me as a wife. It was the most wonderful years of our life and I would re-wind them in a milli-second. However, the tears I shed during all of those yrs, the positions Bullet had and planes he flew had nothing to do with the college it had everything to do with him.

The AFA gives you a wonderful advantage, not only because of the education and TDY's, but because every cadet and every professor are grooming them and instructing them on how we pick each other up and shout in their ear you can do it. ROTC will groom you to be an officer, but it is your friends and family that will be doing the shouting. When you get AD you will get to enjoy what the AFA cadets had for 4 yrs.

I said my peace...yellow card me...shoot the cannons...do whatever...I only hope that those who feel negative towards me understand I had a noble reason behind it and that is what we call the AIR FORCE FAMILY
 
Zaphod, Raimus and PIMA; Excellent posts. People need to realize that PROs and CONs of the academy are not limited to the academy. The same EXACT pros and cons of the academy are what you will find in the "REAL" Air Force. Just as a different level or perspective. later... mike...
 
I wish I had time to read all of the long posts. Yall should really quit replacing thread comments with essays :D
 
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