Russia/Ukraine

[Capt MJ]

Was she drinking Stolichnaya out of a brown bag?

Not yet.

 

[A6E Dad]

i wish we cared about our own borders and territorial integrity as much as we do Ukraine's......

 

[Heatherg21]

This is a great thread. I am not a world traveler or have any inkling of knowing a lot about international affairs. I do wish we cared more about our own security as it relates to our borders and the issuance of visas. We've dropped the ball on both of those for decades.

I do wonder how this improves the relationship between China and Russia. And to an extent, how Germany fits into this. The reliance of Europe on the Russian pipeline has got to be a factor.

And as has been mentioned, what occurred to the Ukrainian people at the hands of the Nazis and the Russians was unspeakable and would make it impossible for Ukraine to want to be under the control of Russia.

 

[kinnem]

I think that the "minor incursion" thing isn't a thing anymore, because the press secretary was quick to tell us what the POTUS actually meant, as usual:

Unless the correction is meant for domestic reasons. I'm not certain the corrections are what Putin heard. I expect a miscalculation is bound to happen somewhere, most likely by both sides.

I do not expect the US will go to war over Ukraine. Hell, the west accepted the seizure of Austria and Czechoslovakia before they decided to stand up for Poland, a country they really couldn't help. I think it will take more than the current Ukraine crisis to drive us to war. The public support isn't there.

 

[THParent]

i wish we cared about our own borders and territorial integrity as much as we do Ukraine's......

Well, if anyone invaded, we would go all Red Dawn on them. So there's that.

 

[kinnem]

I would add that China is watching this. If we let Russia to take parts of Ukraine then they will feel they have a green light for Taiwan. (IMHO)

 

[MidCakePa]

Not at all like Mexico or Canada aligning with China.

I respectfully disagree. If either country aligned itself militarily and economically with China, the U.S. would not sit by placidly and say, “C’est la vie.”

The Russians may view Ukraine as “the Midwest”, but Ukrainians have never wanted anything to do with their abusive neighbor.

I violently agree. My DFIL lived through Soviet oppression — and the Nazi invasion — and knows well Stalin’s unspeakable brutality.

 

[MidCakePa]

I would add that China is watching this. If we let Russia to take parts of Ukraine then they will feel they have a green light for Taiwan. (IMHO)

And then it will really hit home for us! None of us wants war — our own sons and daughters will be involved. None of us wants the second coming of Neville Chamberlain either.

 

[cb7893]

None of this excuses Russia’s bellicose behavior. But it explains it. Much of what I know about Ukraine I learned from my DFIL’s autobiography. As a young boy growing up there, he escaped both the invading Nazis and the invading Soviets.

Where did he grow up and when did he leave?

 

[NJROTC-CC]

And then it will really hit home for us! None of us wants war — our own sons and daughters will be involved. None of us wants the second coming of Neville Chamberlain either.

I totally agree. We need to impose TOUGH economic sanctions (in coalition with the EU and NATO) and give what military assistance we can to Ukraine. But no USA troops.

That being said, Ukraine - - albeit a country wanting and deserving to be free - - was under Russian domination for like 300 years before the fall of the Soviet Union. My grandmother was born in Kharkov in 1904 and left for America in 1906. Ukraine was controlled by Russian then. Grandma's family left to flee the Tsar's oppression. So, what is happening now is nothing new really.

Germany and Poland should be taking the lead on standing up to Russia. I would prefer - - but I doubt this is possible - - for Russia to be an ally of the USA against China. China is the real threat. But I agree we need to send a message to China by how we handle this. I am not liking what I am seeing now.

 

[GWU PNS (emeritus)]

This is a great thread. I am not a world traveler or have any inkling of knowing a lot about international affairs. I do wish we cared more about our own security as it relates to our borders and the issuance of visas. We've dropped the ball on both of those for decades.

I do wonder how this improves the relationship between China and Russia. And to an extent, how Germany fits into this. The reliance of Europe on the Russian pipeline has got to be a factor.

And as has been mentioned, what occurred to the Ukrainian people at the hands of the Nazis and the Russians was unspeakable and would make it impossible for Ukraine to want to be under the control of Russia.

You may not be a world traveler, but you've touched on something very important with respect to Germany. Germany is very dependent on Russia for natural gas and energy in general. Just too hard for them to get things shipped through the Mediterranean.

So, if we had a big dust up......meaning war.....the US and NATO would be more than a little dependent on German base cooperation for Ramstein and Landstuhl Air Bases and their medical capabilities. And I honestly have no idea which side of the fence our NATO "ally" of Turkey sits on these days but they have been cozy with Russia as of late. So, as we all ponder the possibilities here, there is that little thing called reality that keeps staring back at us. The appetite for a big confrontation just may not be there.

 

[A6E Dad]

Well, if anyone invaded, we would go all Red Dawn on them. So there's that.

so you're saying we're not already being invaded at our southern border???

 

[kinnem]

Seems applicable to this thread. It looks like it's outside the pay wall.

U.S. Allows Baltic NATO Members to Send Arms to Ukraine

The decision will enable Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia to send Javelin antitank weapons and Stinger air-defense systems for Ukraine’s forces.

www.wsj.com

 

[THParent]

...And I honestly have no idea which side of the fence our NATO "ally" of Turkey sits on these days but they have been cozy with Russia as of late...

It's Turkiye ("Tur-Kee-Yay") now.

Turkey changes country's name to Turkiye

The country says the change "represents and expresses the culture, civilization and values of the Turkish nation in the best way."

www.travelweekly.com

 

[THmom]

DS was recently sharing with us what he’s been learning at school (Russian and International Studies majors). One thing he mentioned, but not addressed on the thread yet, is WATER.
“
Russia and Ukraine have been at odds over lots of things in recent years, but the latest spat is over something particularly fluid and intractable: water.

While much of the attention on Ukraine's conflict with Russia tends to focus on eastern Ukraine, where Russian-backed separatists control two Ukrainian provinces amid an ongoing civil war that's already killed 14,000 people, there's also Crimea, which Russia annexed in 2014 and continues to govern directly.

Since that time, Crimea has been running out of drinking water, and Moscow isn't happy about it.

A fluid backstory: Crimea is a sea-girdled peninsula of arid steppes and salty marshes. For decades, a Soviet-era canal brought Crimea 85 percent of its freshwater from rivers on the Ukrainian mainland.

But that began to change in 2014: after a popular uprising in Ukraine ousted the country's Kremlin-friendly president, Russia annexed Crimea, which is the only region of Ukraine where ethnic Russians predominate.

Although neither Kyiv, the US, nor the EU recognize Russia's control over Crimea, Ukraine has no way of kicking out Russia's vastly superior forces.

But at the same time, as long as the Kremlin de facto governs the place, Kyiv believes it no longer has any responsibility for the well-being of the people who live there. After all, they are now under a Russian flag, not a Ukrainian one.

And that's where the water crisis comes in, dam it! After the Russian takeover of Crimea, Ukraine built a dam across that Soviet-era canal to stop the flow of water to the peninsula.
The political and practical logic was simple: Russia can't expect Ukraine to continue watering a garden that the Kremlin has stolen. And Ukrainian officials have made clear that they don't intend to change their minds about that.

As a result, Crimean authorities have since 2014 been forced on occasion to ration water, and after a particularly harsh drought earlier this year, Moscow leveled the charge of genocide at Kyiv for its decision to block the canal. This week, the Kremlin accused Kyiv of ecocide as well.

All of this has forced Russia to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in Crimean water infrastructure, not only for the drinking and irrigation needs of the region's 2.5 million civilian residents, but also for the growing number of Russian naval personnel stationed there.

"Crimea river," you might say, but all that money adds up. According to Bloomberg's numbers, the more than $20 billion that Russia has spent on Crimea is roughly equal to two entire years of Russia's entire education budget.

This is part of a bigger issue, the old "you broke it, you bought it" problem: "returning" Crimea to Russian control in 2014 brought Putin an unprecedented windfall of political support at home. But now he's on the hook for it: letting Crimeans go thirsty, or live in the dark, just isn't an option, but actually running a non-contiguous, water-poor peninsula costs a huge amount of money.

With recent droughts and local mismanagement making the water problem worse, the Kremlin seems keen to open the taps, as it were, on this particular issue.

What next? Despite a Russian troop buildup in April, the Kremlin insists there will be no "water war" with Ukraine. But Crimea's water shortage isn't getting any better, and global warming certainly won't help.

Pour yourself a tall glass of water, and watch this space.”

https://www.gzeromedia.com/crimea-river-russia-ukraines-water-conflict

 

[THParent]

...the latest spat is over something particularly fluid and intractable: water...

...A fluid backstory...

...And that's where the water crisis comes in, dam it!...

..."Crimea river," you might say...

...Pour yourself a tall glass of water, and watch this space...

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

I do wonder if the Ukraine was discussed in any top secret meetings between the US and Russia where no records were kept and our military has no idea what was discussed since no records were kept.

And as important as the Ukraine is to Russia what are the chances it was not discussed?

 

[NJROTC-CC]

I do wonder if the Ukraine was discussed in any top secret meetings between the US and Russia where no records were kept and our military has no idea what was discussed since no records were kept.

And as important as the Ukraine is to Russia what are the chances it was not discussed?

Or maybe it wasn't discussed and should have been. Thus, sending the wrong message.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

Trump gears up for possible Putin meeting as Ukraine tensions rise | CNN Politics

President Donald Trump once mocked his predecessor as he confronted Russia's 2014 aggression in Ukraine, saying Russian President Vladimir Putin was "having a great time toying with the President."

www.cnn.com

IMO the chances are absolutely 0 that the Ukraine was not discussed in that secret meeting.

Regional issues being one of only 2-3 things on the announced agenda.

 

[GWU PNS (emeritus)]

It's Turkiye ("Tur-Kee-Yay") now.

Turkey changes country's name to Turkiye

The country says the change "represents and expresses the culture, civilization and values of the Turkish nation in the best way."

www.travelweekly.com

Well.....I'll be!! Walk away from the internets for 5 seconds and they're turning everything on its head. The things you learn here.