Should We Keep West Point?

[MemberLG]

What about Senior Military Colleges with ROTC? It has the same experience as West Point but without the taxpayer cost as not everyone is on a scholarship but many still commission.


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I would say "similar" experience, but not the "same" experience.

Following your logic, is there a difference between a Harvard graduate and a state university graduate that have same undergraduate major? They have the same major.

All SMC receive some forms of taxpayer support.

If you want the cheapest way to produce military officers, OCS is the way to go.

I am pretty sure you won't buy the cheapest car in the market although $10,000 car will meet your basic transportation need as a $30,000 car.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Where does the money come from?

For service academies, there is federal funding. What does that federal funding get you? School.

I am not aware of any aspect of USCGA, USMA, USNA, USAFA or USMMA that would be SO much more expensive than any other school.

My experience is entirely with USCGA. From my four years at the school, I don't remember anything that was better than many of the other schools I looked at, including nice private colleges.

Chase Hall, our dorm, wasn't anything to brag about. Sure our rooms were a decent size. Our furniture was pretty basic. We didn't (at the time) have A/C. Most of the dorm rooms I called home were built in 1933. Chase Hall wasn't state-of-the-art. My main academic building, Satterlee Hall, wasn't state-of-the-art. Heck, even the ship simulator was older.

We had a small football field, soccer fields, softball and baseball fields, a poor (but now MUCH better outdoor track) and in interestingly sized indoor track. We had half a pool and a good sized pool, both indoor. We had a decent sailhouse and sailboats/crew. Nothing I've listed is any better than our neighbor, Connecticut College, except that they also had a hockey rink.

Our library wasn't horrible, but it wasn't anything to REALLY brag about (although our librarians were helpful).

I'm not complaining about USCGA, I think it was great. All I'm saying is, I have NO idea how the figures at a service academy can be SO much higher than other colleges unless, 1. other colleges are failing to factor in costs that may be harder to calculate but still exist or 2. the academies calculate too many costs.

I go to VMI or the Citadel and, just from a quick walk around, there's nothing that stands out as "more efficient" to me.

So where is this cost coming from? How do you charge someone to go to school, make them serve a number of years after their education is complete, and have them fall under UCMJ.... all at once? Won't happen.

What is cheaper about a SMC that a federal service academy is missing?

 

[Idzak]

LITS:"Heck, even the ship simulator was older."
This is to train for the older ships.

 

[LineInTheSand]

LITS:"Heck, even the ship simulator was older."
This is to train for the older ships.

HAHAHA, so true.... I only wish it would move, to simulate bobbing around in a small boat in big seas....

The Surfact Warfare Officer School in Newport, R.I., had some nice simulators.

 

[MemberLG]

What is cheaper about a SMC that a federal service academy is missing?

Overhead cost is not properly accounted for SMCs.

For SAs, it is easy to calculate the total cost of running a SA. So if a SA budget is $500 million a year. We divide the budget by number of cadets and come out a figure on how much a cadet costs.

Whereas for a SMC, we only look at how much tuition and room and board cost and come out with how much ROTC cadet costs. But the cost of ROTC cadre, ROTC Command, and etc should be included in the cost calculation.

I believe all SMC are public institution so they get some sort of state and federal funding. So the public funding should be accounted for also as a part of cost for ROTC cadets.

 

[Pima]

+1 Member.

SMCs, such as VT receive money in various taxpayers subsidies, which makes it difficult to really assess the cost.
~ Federal tax dollars
~ VA RE taxes
~ VA state taxes

The flip side is you need to place the endowments these colleges have that pay for new buildings, etc.
~ If I recall VT has @500 MN in endowments, to use at their discretion.

Add in the fact that many SMCs, like VT and TAMU have civilian students. Profs are not necessarily either AD or GSs being paid by the DoD.

Additionally, something people are not placing into the equation is health care costs. SMC cadets do not have medical coverage, which adds into the cost for cadets at any SA.

I personally believe that all SAs should remain in place. I don't believe they create better officers per se {Powell is an AROTC grad), but I believe that with all of the pork barrel spending (Bridge to Nowhere, studying methane gas from cows, etc) this is better ROI than most things we pay for with our tax dollars.

I am not a supporter of combining all SAs and running it like an SMC Corps of Cadets. If you go that way, you might as well close the SAs and save tax dollars.

 

[AROTC-dad]

Overhead cost is not properly accounted for SMCs.

For SAs, it is easy to calculate the total cost of running a SA. So if a SA budget is $500 million a year. We divide the budget by number of cadets and come out a figure on how much a cadet costs.

Whereas for a SMC, we only look at how much tuition and room and board cost and come out with how much ROTC cadet costs. But the cost of ROTC cadre, ROTC Command, and etc should be included in the cost calculation.

I believe all SMC are public institution so they get some sort of state and federal funding. So the public funding should be accounted for also as a part of cost for ROTC cadets.

Norwich is the only SMC that is a non-public/private college.

 

[MedB]

All I'm saying is, I have NO idea how the figures at a service academy can be SO much higher than other colleges unless, 1. other colleges are failing to factor in costs that may be harder to calculate but still exist or 2. the academies calculate too many costs.

I'm thinking your second supposition is right on target. When those numbers are tossed around for the dollar value of a SA cadet's eduction, I believe they may include a whole host of things most people don't think about and are in excess of SMCs or ROTC schools; such as...

* 5+ Summer training experiences across the country/world (what does it cost to maintain the Eagle or a small fleet of tow planes and gliders???)
* Travel for same
* Travel to/from the Academy
* Medical facilities/services
* Dental facilities/services
* 6 weeks of BCT (basics, cadre, permanent party, food, logistics)
* Weapons training and facilities
* Support for specialized clubs/teams
* Maintaining a true 8:1 faculty ratio (and with no/few grad students posing as teachers like most universities have!)
* Lab fees
* Permanent Party
* etc, etc, etc

As awesome as the SMC or ROTC experience is, there IS a difference in what the SA cadets experience and are exposed to throughout their four years.

 

[Pima]

+1 Member.

SMCs, such as VT receive money in various taxpayers subsidies, which makes it difficult to really assess the cost.
~ Federal tax dollars
~ VA RE taxes
~ VA state taxes

The flip side is you need to place the endowments these colleges have that pay for new buildings, etc.
~ If I recall VT has @500 MN in endowments, to use at their discretion.

Add in the fact that many SMCs, like VT and TAMU have civilian students. Profs are not necessarily either AD or GSs being paid by the DoD.

Additionally, something people are not placing into the equation is health care costs. SMC cadets do not have medical coverage, which adds into the cost for cadets at any SA.

I personally believe that all SAs should remain in place. I don't believe they create better officers per se {Powell is an AROTC grad), but I believe that with all of the pork barrel spending (Bridge to Nowhere, studying methane gas from cows, etc) this is better ROI than most things we pay for with our tax dollars.

I am not a supporter of combining all SAs and running it like an SMC Corps of Cadets.