USAFA Chances?

[MombaBomba]

Yeah momba they told us at the AFASS that they sent 3 to med school last year I think. That's why my second plan is to become a pilot because who doesn't want to be a pilot right? As for the sociology major, I really wouldn't expect them to go to med school, but they would definitely stand out. The curriculum for all cadets is rigorous, even that English major so I would believe that a sociology major would be prepared in some way for medical school, but at the same time a Chem or bio major has been exposed to more difficult courses in that field so I think they would go into med school knowing more, but in the end both majors are taught the same thing in medical school. Either route chosen to become a doctor, the person would be just as qualified because they were exposed to the same curriculum in med school. I mean you won't learn about how to become a brain surgeon during the 4 years at USAFA so why does it matter if I majored in Spanish? As long as I got through med school I know I would be qualified to be a doctor. This is just the thoughts of a up and coming high school senior though

So, for med school, certain course are required even if they are not in your major. By default, you would have to take them in order to take the MCAT (physics, organic chem, calculus, micro biology, biology, etc. and with the new MCAT, sociology and psychology). So you have to be science heavy even if you major in music or marketing. And you have to have done more than the basic bio or chem courses if you are a physics or chem or engineering or whatever heavy science degree. It is built into the pre med track. With the emphasis on engineering at the USAFA academy, I suspect it is a bit tougher to get in all the required courses needed for the MCAT.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Usafamom, as a person who just had her 12th major surgery (among 20+ minor procedures), I will adamantly state that I do not want a sociologist or anthropologist as my surgeon, as my oncologist, as my radiologist, as my orthopedist. I don't give a hoot about their bedside manor; I prefer to be alive to give my grandson love & hugs (and sugar).

But I would not deny a non-sci major access to med school, provided they can do the math & science. I strongly prefer my doc to know all about chelating agents and the physics of joints.

Medical schools are specifically looking at diverse degrees and they have their reasons. It's required that all majors take a couple semesters of the following: chemistry with lab, organic chemistry with lab: physics with lab, biology with lab, and a semester of calc. I suspect every degree requires psychology and sociology. So that anthropologist or sociologist that you pass on may be semi-brilliant to load-up on the science classes and major in their diverse degree. Chances are they also took genetics and anatomy. Most non-technical UG degrees admitted to medical schools are older students. So more often than not, they took the needed classes in order to perform well on the MCAT. Of course they had to shadow and get letters of recommendations to enter medical school. As luck would have it, I am in close proximity to the Mayo. I let them weed-out the poor performers. So I don't care if they majored in basket weaving because the Mayo brought them on board.

Yeah momba they told us at the AFASS that they sent 3 to med school last year I think. That's why my second plan is to become a pilot because who doesn't want to be a pilot right? As for the sociology major, I really wouldn't expect them to go to med school, but they would definitely stand out. The curriculum for all cadets is rigorous, even that English major so I would believe that a sociology major would be prepared in some way for medical school, but at the same time a Chem or bio major has been exposed to more difficult courses in that field so I think they would go into med school knowing more, but in the end both majors are taught the same thing in medical school. Either route chosen to become a doctor, the person would be just as qualified because they were exposed to the same curriculum in med school. I mean you won't learn about how to become a brain surgeon during the 4 years at USAFA so why does it matter if I majored in Spanish? As long as I got through med school I know I would be qualified to be a doctor. This is just the thoughts of a up and coming high school senior though

So, for med school, certain course are required even if they are not in your major. By default, you would have to take them in order to take the MCAT (physics, organic chem, calculus, micro biology, biology, etc. and with the new MCAT, sociology and psychology). So you have to be science heavy even if you major in music or marketing. And you have to have done more than the basic bio or chem courses if you are a physics or chem or engineering or whatever heavy science degree. It is built into the pre med track. With the emphasis on engineering at the USAFA academy, I suspect it is a bit tougher to get in all the required courses needed for the MCAT.

DS is submitting some of his secondaries as we speaker. He took the last old MCAT test available in January specifically because he didn't want to take the new exam. The potential USAFA student dreaming of becoming a doctor should concern themselves around the lack of time applying to medical school and studying for the MCAT. It has little to do with the generous USAFA cap that are allowed to become doctors. My understanding is that students weed themselves out all by themselves. After all, 50% of the student body want to become pilots so it's less competitive than say USMA.

The problem is the additional time stress and the non-inflated GPA's make it tougher for students to get accepted into medical school. After all, in order to go to medical school, you need to get accepted and that is the biggest USAFA challenge (not the cap). The issue at hand is how do you fit in the time to study for MCAT while attending USAFA as well as finding the time to shadow. This assumes you are an involved student. If you only focus on medical school related topics, then why bother attending USAFA?

But as you alude to, the biggest new hurdle will be the new MCAT test. This includes the need to take more classes and finding MUCH more time to study for the MCAT. Basically, my DS had 2 weeks to prepare for the old MCAT. That was all the time he could find and he felt the pressure. His general biology and chemistry were taken in 11th and 12 grade as well (he tested out of them at USAFA). He predicts it will become much harder to become a doctor now specifically for Academy grads because of this new MCAT test. In short, if you want to become a doctor and attend a SA it is now more difficult. Based off of his MCAT score, GPA, shadowing experience, and the fact they are looking for diversity (a SA grad defines diversity), he should be in good shape but nothing is guaranteed. Knowing what I know and realizing that my DS's dream is to become a doctor, I would not recommend going to a SA specifically because of this new MCAT test. If any doctor wanabees reading this in the years to come want to reach out to my DS, send me a PM.

 

[FalconsRock]

If you only focus on medical school related topics, then why bother attending USAFA?

MNDad, congratulations on the accomplishments of your DS. It sounds like he is focused and well on his way. In regards to your comment about "bothering" to attend the USAFA if you want to be a doctor, I have to respectfully disagree. My DD wants to bother because she loves the USAFA and is determined to attend if appointed even if it means putting off med school until her obligation is paid. It is an honor to her to even think that she can be one of the few (compared to the hundreds of thousands who go to college) to hail from such an institution. She is academy bent or bust. BTW, there are a few majors offered at the USAFA that benefit students who know early that they want to be a doctor. The Biology and Chemistry majors do well to set them up with the classes they need. Yes, it will be tough to find time to study for MCAT, and shadow, but not impossible. Here are two excerpts from the USAFA curriculum catalog about the tailored tracks that are available to those cadets pursuing a professional degree:

The Biology major provides a multidisciplinary approach to the study of human performance in air and space, exercise, biomechanics, environmental sciences, and cutting-edge cell and genetic engineering. Some cadets pursue specialized areas of interest such as aviation and flight, human factors in aviation and space, athletics and sports performance, ecology, cell and molecular biology, or professional or advanced degree preparation. The Biology major is also very flexible; cadets are not limited to a specific area of study and are free to tailor a program to meet their own interests. The Biology major can complement many careers in the Air Force, or prepare you for a career in the health professions (such as medicine or dentistry).

Additionally, cadets graduating with one of the chemistry tracks are very competitive for medical school, dental school, bioenvironmental engineering, pilot, navigator, aircraft maintenance, intelligence, and a host of other operational and support career fields.

As was mentioned in the posts above, USAFA is not a direct route and one must attend with eyes wide open with the understanding that it may not happen. If willing to accept that, then it certainly would not be a bother but an honor.

 

[Christcorp]

Excellent advice given. The biggest thing a cadet can do, and advice a parent can give, is to keep their OPTIONS OPEN. I've said this about so many things. It's ok to choose any career path you want, but too many times people don't choose a path because it's what they want, but because of a lack of options.

My son had numerous passions about where he wanted his military career to go AFTER graduating the academy. One of those was medical school. He also felt he wouldn't mind being a pilot or Special Ops. He also knew that no matter what, he wanted to attend "Some Sort" of graduate school after the academy. For numerous reasons. One reason is to get an advanced degree completed (Which was eventually going to be required no matter what path his chose) while he was still single, no kids, and much more free time vs getting grad school done later.

He majored in Behavioral Science; also took Med School pre-classes such as Organic Chemistry. Prepared for the MCAT. etc. Even if he chose not to pursue a medical degree, he knew he was prepared and ready to attend if needed. He wound up not choosing medical school, but accepting a pilot slot. But he also applied to and received a grad school slot out of the academy. If all goes well, he'll finish his dissertation next week and will have his Doctorate (PhD) degree completed. He also kept his options open for Special Operations. He applied, went through selection, passed and was selected to become a Special Tactics Officer. So he turned down his pilot slot, and will be heading to Florida to start STO Special Ops training after he gets his PhD.

Point is, keep your options open. Take all the necessary classes you MIGHT NEED. Keep everything open. Best of luck.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

If you only focus on medical school related topics, then why bother attending USAFA?

MNDad, congratulations on the accomplishments of your DS. It sounds like he is focused and well on his way. In regards to your comment about "bothering" to attend the USAFA if you want to be a doctor, I have to respectfully disagree. My DD wants to bother because she loves the USAFA and is determined to attend if appointed even if it means putting off med school until her obligation is paid. It is an honor to her to even think that she can be one of the few (compared to the hundreds of thousands who go to college) to hail from such an institution. She is academy bent or bust. BTW, there are a few majors offered at the USAFA that benefit students who know early that they want to be a doctor. The Biology and Chemistry majors do well to set them up with the classes they need. Yes, it will be tough to find time to study for MCAT, and shadow, but not impossible. Here are two excerpts from the USAFA curriculum catalog about the tailored tracks that are available to those cadets pursuing a professional degree:

The Biology major provides a multidisciplinary approach to the study of human performance in air and space, exercise, biomechanics, environmental sciences, and cutting-edge cell and genetic engineering. Some cadets pursue specialized areas of interest such as aviation and flight, human factors in aviation and space, athletics and sports performance, ecology, cell and molecular biology, or professional or advanced degree preparation. The Biology major is also very flexible; cadets are not limited to a specific area of study and are free to tailor a program to meet their own interests. The Biology major can complement many careers in the Air Force, or prepare you for a career in the health professions (such as medicine or dentistry).

Additionally, cadets graduating with one of the chemistry tracks are very competitive for medical school, dental school, bioenvironmental engineering, pilot, navigator, aircraft maintenance, intelligence, and a host of other operational and support career fields.

As was mentioned in the posts above, USAFA is not a direct route and one must attend with eyes wide open with the understanding that it may not happen. If willing to accept that, then it certainly would not be a bother but an honor.

My broader point was the low amount of accepted students going into medical school has little to do with the cap and everything to do with busy students falling short of getting in. This new MCAT test will force USAFA students to severely limit their activities. If they don't, prepare to be weeded out. If they only focus on medical school type activities and they don't take advantage of all of the incredible opportunities that USAFA has to offer, much of the learning opportunities are not present. My use of the phrase "why bother" probably wasn't the best choice. But the best I can tell, the bulk of real education from attending USAFA wasn't in the classroom. According to my DS's opinion, USAFA will be sending even less doctors in the pending years specifically because of the new MCAT test. That's because who wants to turn down studying with scholars around the world in Hong Kong for a month (where my DS is right now) to study for the new MCAT? Who wants to quit the time-demanding programs like souring or the Wing of Blue? In other words, your foot is on the accelerator pedal and you want to do it all. Something has to give and many future USAFA students will have to come to grips with giving up on their med school dreams or dummy down the real education gems outside of the classroom. I had these conversations with my DS as he was trying to figure out how he could find time to study. It is a real concern. I was giving him advise that he didn't want to hear. Luckily he got a good score so he should be in fine shape. But some others didn't fair as well.

So if someone wants to become a doctor 1st and foremost, picking the USAFA route has its downsides. Therefore, I would advise them to reach-out to a student who has experienced this juggling act 1st hand.

Additionally, putting medical school on hold for 5 years just added a whole new level of difficulty to accomplishing ones dreams but that's another topic. Also, USAFA has the potential of destroying your GPA. The average GPA is 2.67. If you are planning on attending medical school even 5 years later, that average GPA will severely limit your chances. This is some further examples of why there are so little medical students. Rest assured that some incredible HS students find themselves unable to perfect time management skills. This is how a former A caliber HS student finds themselves on academic probation at USAFA. Don't shoot the messenger. I'd be advising my son or daughter to think about these real concerns. Now if she is brilliant and has time management down to a science, then proceed as planned because she can do anything she wants.

Attending USAFA certainly is an honor. I'm not so sure it trumps setting yourself up for the career you really want because a student wants to go to a prestigious and selective school. Big picture, USAFA has some risks for students who want to go to medical school. My DD wanted to serve and she took the HPSP and will be an army dentist in 2 more years. So there are other paths to serve AND follow your dreams to become a doctor. If your DD wants to talk with someone, I am sure my DS would be happy to talk.

 

[FalconsRock]

MNDad, first, thank you for taking the time to post here so we can get a clear picture. I hear every word you are saying and I definitely see your point. We have talked at length about HPSP, HSCP(Navy), and other more direct routes to medical school, but my DD is having no part of it. She really wants to go USAFA and is all in. She has talked to a few doctors that graduated from the academy and still believes that is the way she wants to go. She met a flight surgeon the other day who graduated USAFA, became a pilot and became an MD at 39. He encouraged her to go to the academy and do as you say, things that not many college students can do, such as soaring and jumping out of airplanes. He said he would not do it any other way. I will let her read your posts as I think she should be well informed, and again, her eyes have to be wide open. I will certainly let you know if she would like to talk with your DS.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Just to clarify a couple of points for your DD and others reading this post, I will summarize what I know (so I apologize for being redundant).

1. Every USAFA student has to get into medical school 1st.
2. Even if you are accepted to a medical school, nothing says USAFA will let you in.
3. EVERY USAFA med school student has to apply to HPSP. So post UG degree, it's identical; same stipend, same commitment, same everything. Meaning, this is the same path as a traditional student wanting to be a doctor.
4. Getting a AF HPSP scholarship is tougher than say an Army HPSP. The AF racks and stacks the students while the Army uses FIFO. Plus, the MCAT scores are stronger in the AF. But as a SA grad, you have an edge to get the AF HPSP. As an example, DD who went dental and NOT a SA grad could not get the AF medical recruiter to pay attention to her; her DAT scores were not high enough. So she went Army.
5. At a normal college, you have multiple bullets to get into medical school. Meaning, if you get turned down the 1st year which is extremely common, you can re-apply the following year at a traditional college. This is NOT the case at USAFA.
6. There is currently a 5% cap on medical students. It can change without notice. The current cap rarely a concern.
7. As another posted mentioned, about 3 students went to medical school last year. The pool was much higher and they were weeded out. Remember, USAFA is full of talented students. Not getting in has little to do with the lack of brainpower.
8. Medical schools like a diverse pool of student. They also have to prove on their application that they want to serve a higher cause. That is the poster-child SA graduate. So all things being equal, the edge goes to a SA student during the application process.
9. The average USAFA GPA is 2.67. That's not going to cut it to get into med school. USAFA therefore has a way of destroying students dreams of becoming a doctor. If you look at who gets into medical school at USAFA, it is normally the top 10% of the student body. Of those 10%, most rank in the top 5%. The entire student body is smart. Smart has little to do with time management skills under pressure. SA's test those skills from day 1. Statistically speaking, if you want to be a Doc and go to USAFA, you need to be in the top 10% of the student body. The problem is, you don't know where you fall until your time management skills are tested.
10. Finding time to study and shadow at a SA is a good deal harder than a traditional college. That's because USAFA is more-or-less a year round education. Students schedules change on a dime as well. Sleep will become a luxury.
11. Waiting X amount of years to attend medical school is a much harder path. You need to re-study the test and some classes fail rather fast. Then life gets in the way of accomplishing those goals (a.k.a. kids and marriage).
12. The application process requires a lot of secondary essays. This can coincide with that busy SA schedule. Then the interview process takes place and there is a lot of paperwork to get off campus. Again, this sucks up the SA bandwidth and challenges their senior level GPA much more than a traditional college.
12. A time marches on, it is becoming more competitive to attend medical school. Also, rules change. Hence, be careful taking advice from a 20 year old grad. More often than not, it is old news.

In short, if my DD or DS wanted to become a doctor, I'd be lecturing these realities. I strongly predict many that the potential Doc's at USAFA that were weeded out had a solid chance in a civilian school. Personally, I would be asking tough questions as to why attending USAFA trumps everything in life. I knew of a fraction of these ^^ bullets when my DS applied.

Best of luck to all!

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Tweaks to my last post... I spoke with my DS in passing and asked about Doc's out of USAFA. A couple points and clarifications. 15 students went to medical school last year (not 3 as I posted). He understood that everybody who applied from USAFA in 2015 got in somewhere. Next up, USAFA has streamlined the process to interview and there isn't a lot of paperwork.

Sorry for the errors.

 

[FalconsRock]

Next up, USAFA has streamlined the process to interview and there isn't a lot of paperwork.

Thanks for the update. Can you clarify what you mean by the process to interview?

 

[ProudSwimDad]

Not to contradict MN-Dad, and agree it is likely a more difficult route than it would be in a civilian college, but it can be done and has been every year by 10-15 students from USNA, USMA, and USAFA. DD just finished her second year at USNA and took the new MCATs in June. She ended up with a score that should get her into a number of medical schools. Her GPA would likely be higher if she were at a civilian college, but I tend to think medical schools will account for that in a similar way the academies account for students coming out of top tier high schools with a slightly lower GPA or class standing. I'm sure they would prefer higher MCATs and GPAs because it keeps their rankings high, but also want students that will make it through their program. Who's better able to handle the rigors of a medical school program, someone who came out of State U, or someone who was successful in making it through the Academy experience? I'm sure I'll learn more about this as DD goes through the application process a year from now. I haven't seen any statistics, but I would imagine the medical students that come out of one of the academies probably have a higher success rate that the average student body at medical school.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Not to contradict MN-Dad, and agree it is likely a more difficult route than it would be in a civilian college, but it can be done and has been every year by 10-15 students from USNA, USMA, and USAFA. DD just finished her second year at USNA and took the new MCATs in June. She ended up with a score that should get her into a number of medical schools. Her GPA would likely be higher if she were at a civilian college, but I tend to think medical schools will account for that in a similar way the academies account for students coming out of top tier high schools with a slightly lower GPA or class standing. I'm sure they would prefer higher MCATs and GPAs because it keeps their rankings high, but also want students that will make it through their program. Who's better able to handle the rigors of a medical school program, someone who came out of State U, or someone who was successful in making it through the Academy experience? I'm sure I'll learn more about this as DD goes through the application process a year from now. I haven't seen any statistics, but I would imagine the medical students that come out of one of the academies probably have a higher success rate that the average student body at medical school.

It is fair to assume that there will be many students that make it out of the SA's and into medical school with the new MCAT. My point was it will be tougher and more than likely less total students. But the jury is out if this new test will weed out students. My broader point was that students will have to make tough decisions and pass on great opportunities in order to fit in much more study time because there are more topics to study on the test. DS said he is worried some of the students might be weeded out this round because of the new test. In the "old days" (last year), everyone would have earned a spot. So if he was going though the process again, some golden opportunities would have to be bypassed in order to find more time. There is a reason why USAFA puts a large $$ amount on the value. There are incredible opportunities and he wanted to attend USAFA for these programs that he is taking full advantage of.

Like many medical students, his goal wasn't to get just get into any medical school. He wants to get into the best school he is capable of. After all, if you are from a SA and the SA signs off that you can attend Medical school, you should be able to attend USUH.

I do agree with your point of view that SA students are rounded up. Partly because medical schools know the caliber of school, they want a diverse student body, and they need to demonstrate they want to serve a higher cause. 3 plus check marks for SA applicants.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Next up, USAFA has streamlined the process to interview and there isn't a lot of paperwork.

Thanks for the update. Can you clarify what you mean by the process to interview?

If I understand things correctly, normally to get off campus, there is a signoff procedure and paperwork. For medical students that have to fly to for their interview, it's painless and easy. I don't know the details other than it isn't a NON-factor.