USAFA Cheating Scandal

[raimius]

Well, for example, I believe that many cases where a person breaks the Honor Code, but turns themselves in when they know they could get away with it, that they should be given a second look. To me, the action of self-identifying when they will only receive negative consequences helps to indicate that their transgression may not have been a continuing flaw in their character.

I'm extremely interested in this inter-webby-thingy of which you speak...

From what I've heard, it's a series of tubes of some sort, invented by some Nobel Prize winner.

 

[Luigi59]

Agree with Bruno. This is a legitimate topic for discussion but the conversation needs to be about the issues themselves and not degenerate into attacks against the views of others.

I agree, which is why I addressed the poster who did it.

 

[Scratcher]

I don't believe there are a lot of zoomies defending dishonorable cadets.

Yep, you got that right Christcorp. I'm not defending the cadets in any way. I am only defending the USAFA Honor System and Leadership and their ability to make a sound decision. I trust them to make the best decision based purely on facts that I nor anyone else on this forum are privilege to.

 

[Scratcher]

Again, I'll ask (since you claim to know the honor system): multiple claims on this thread from others who claim to know the honor system state that a cadet who ADMITS his honor violation after being caught has his offense reviewed at the Squadron level. True or False? And if false, why not correct all those claims? Or is it not false?

What's your involvement with this? It's always interesting when someone joins a forum over one thread.

FYI, there's a difference between "you're" and "your."

Thanks for the english lesson. I have no involvement other than I trust the Honor System and USAFA leadership which everyone is bashing. I did not join the forum for this thread. I joined for a different thread and that brought me here. Look at my history of posts. I did attempt to correct everyone's wrong assumptions about the Honor System Processes by posting the Honor System Guide (twice). It's there for all to read. Anyone who says that a substantiated honor violation is reviewed at the squadron level and can be stopped or derailed at that level is wrong...including you. Stop bashing a system that you know nothing about.

 

[Scratcher]

Ding ding ding. You are correct.

No LineInTheSand he is not correct. Again, both of you are using false information to make weak arguments.

 

[Christcorp]

In other words, The Academy is infallible.

Their judgement can never be challenged nor questioned, and whatever they do, whenever they do it, should be accepted without any reservations, questions, or condemnations because, after all, they are The Academy.

Wow. Scary thoughts indeed.

No, in other words, while the academy is NOT infallible, I think they are more so than you are. Especially when they have more of the facts than you do. So; if I am to choose: "The academy's decision" or "Luigi's decision"; then there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I'll choose the academy's.

Or the cadet can run a 4.4 and average 5 yards per carry.

Lets hope that is not the case, although if it is, will support it because, after all, The Academy made the decision?

Sorry that your education was so poor that you didn't learn to read. I said I will NOT discuss or reply to comments I "SPECIFICALLY" said were hypothetical. So you can scratch this off your bucket list.

See above

 

[Scratcher]

In other words, The Academy is infallible.

Their judgement can never be challenged nor questioned, and whatever they do, whenever they do it, should be accepted without any reservations, questions, or condemnations because, after all, they are The Academy.

Wow. Scary thoughts indeed.

I would think that if you wanted to challenge or question their decision, that you should have the same set of facts that they do.

 

[GoSox]

A blog post by a USAFA graduate discussing this issue. It suggests that the cadets facing the most rigorous investigation are those who accessed Wolfram Alpha and then flat out denied doing so:

http://annemartinfletcher.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/what-afa-hasnt-released-on-cheating-scandal/

 

[Bullet]

Agree with Bruno. This is a legitimate topic for discussion but the conversation needs to be about the issues themselves and not degenerate into attacks against the views of others.

Agreed.

I agree, which is why I addressed the poster who did it.

Glad this poster feels the same. But based on the post I was responding to:

In other words, The Academy is infallible.

Their judgement can never be challenged nor questioned, and whatever they do, whenever they do it, should be accepted without any reservations, questions, or condemnations because, after all, they are The Academy.

Wow. Scary thoughts indeed.

I guess he should feel free to chastise himself as well.

Luigi, a number of posters after me very succinctly summarized why I thought what you posted was garbage. You labelled anyone who thought the Academy had more information than you on the subject and therefore were in a better position to handle it as, in your words, "USAFA apologists". They weren't commenting on the punishment these cadets should face, just on whom had the better insight and expertise to make those calls.

To make snap judgements on the process before it is competed, and to label anyone who calls for allowing the process to work itself out before we gather the masses of pitch-forks and torches as "apologists" is, indeed, garbage. Because it is indeed an attacks on their opinion, and as you said above, you agree this should not be tolerated.

You're better than that.

As to Bruno's suggestion and my thoughts on the cadets themselves? I'm on the fence on this one. Avery big part of me believes that if they knew they we're cheating and did it anyway.... well, maybe they can see how it feels to sleep in at a regular university instead. Wrecks the whole officer ascension process to remove so many? Well, that is why we set OCS goals yearly, to make up for the shortfalls.

But another part of me remembers these were just 18 year old kids only a short 10 or 12 months ago, with no real idea what the concept of honor an integrity when it comes to leadership is all about. That is a purpose of the Academy, to teach them those lessons. Perhaps there may be room for leniency on some of them (if you consider 100s of hours of tours, a complete loss of trust from your cadre, leadership, and (more importantly) your classmates, and the very distinct possibility that the next minor infraction, something your fellow cadets could easily overcome, will be your last). I never expected the 18 - 19 year old kids I commanded to be "perfect", but I sure tried to mentor them to get there. If one of my "brightest", the ones I knew would someday be superstars and terrific leaders, made a mist-step, even a major one, I tried to soundly judge whether his removal would help or hurt my service more. I only hope, No -- I KNOW, the USAFA leadership is wrestling with that same call for judgement now.

Like I said, on the fence on this one....

 

[LineInTheSand]

No LineInTheSand he is not correct. Again, both of you are using false information to make weak arguments.

If you, in your obviously informed position could cite my false information, it would be greatly appreciated. My comments are about my experience as a CGA cadet, not about the flawed system at USAFA. My feelings are about my past experiences as a CGA cadet, CG officer and now civilian. They are not about the AFA honor code. Haven't read it. Don't plan on reading it. I haven't spoken to that document yet. My comments are about honor in general and the affects a lack of honor has on unit morale and operations.

My "ding ding" is you came to SAF to comment on this thread. The "ding dings" are not about his comments regarding the AFA honor code.

I'm hoping in the future, for you Scratcher, we don't have to do a step by step review of every post we make.

And finally, to save you some man hours, you're welcome to use LITS when referring to "LineInTheSand."

 

[falconfamily]

LITS - It really does not help your argument to say that the USAFA honor system is flawed and then make repeated statements that you don't know the USAFA honor code, don't intend to read about it, etc. It simply narrows your argument to one of personal belief and that is not very convincing. As for honor in general, that is a subject that this group takes very seriously, which is evidenced by the passion expressed in this thread. But passion should not trump reason, and as reasonable people we should recognize our limitations and be humble enough to appreciate the challenge that such an incident poses to the leaders at USAFA. To simply dismiss the proceedings and to question outcomes when the situation is still evolving is truly not worthy of any of us.

If you, in your obviously informed position could cite my false information, it would be greatly appreciated. My comments are about my experience as a CGA cadet, not about the flawed system at USAFA. My feelings are about my past experiences as a CGA cadet, CG officer and now civilian. They are not about the AFA honor code. Haven't read it. Don't plan on reading it. I haven't spoken to that document yet. My comments are about honor in general and the affects a lack of honor has on unit morale and operations.

 

[Scratcher]

If you, in your obviously informed position could cite my false information, it would be greatly appreciated. My comments are about my experience as a CGA cadet, not about the flawed system at USAFA. My feelings are about my past experiences as a CGA cadet, CG officer and now civilian. They are not about the AFA honor code. Haven't read it. Don't plan on reading it. I haven't spoken to that document yet. My comments are about honor in general and the affects a lack of honor has on unit morale and operations.

My "ding ding" is you came to SAF to comment on this thread. The "ding dings" are not about his comments regarding the AFA honor code.

I'm hoping in the future, for you Scratcher, we don't have to do a step by step review of every post we make.

And finally, to save you some man hours, you're welcome to use LITS when referring to "LineInTheSand."

Copy all. Let me recap for you, above you said "flawed system at USAFA" then you said "Haven't read it. Don't plan on reading it." Therefore you labeled a system flawed that you know nothing about. Secondly you said, "My "ding ding" is you came to SAF to comment on this thread." Also a false statement. That is what I was referencing in my post above. I don't think I'm the one who needs a step by step. Try reading #185, #186, and #209 and see if you can keep up with the conversation.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Copy all. Let me recap for you, above you said "flawed system at USAFA" then you said "Haven't read it. Don't plan on reading it." Therefore you labeled a system flawed that you know nothing about. Secondly you said, "My "ding ding" is you came to SAF to comment on this thread." Also a false statement. That is what I was referencing in my post above. I don't think I'm the one who needs a step by step. Try reading #185, #186, and #209 and see if you can keep up with the conversation.

WHOA! Look at that! Looks like someone's talking on the radio. Wowzaaa. Yes, take a look at post #186 and again, think about what the Ding Ding Ding was about. Hint: I quoted what ding ding ding was about.


So something is flawed.... right? Only you've stated that you trust USAFA's admin and leadership, as well as those who have more info than we do (including you, I assume). If the leadership isn't the issue, and the honor code isn't the issue.... the final piece of that puzzle are the cadets. So, would you maintain the cadets are the problem? Is that why you've chosen to back them up the entire time.

I'm going to assume for a second that Scratcher is in the Air Force. I'm going to assume he/she hasn't graduated yet though, but I may very well be wrong. Heck, I might be wrong about Scratcher being in the Air Force, but to the degree that Scratcher has engaged, I'm guessing, without anything to back it up, Scratcher is an AFA cadet who thinks this is a personal attack on his institution.

What I hope Scratcher as some point realizes is, ridding any academy of dishonorable individuals is what we should all want. I don't care if they are cadets from USMA, USAFA or my favorite, USCGA. I don't care if they are midshipmen from USNA or USMMA.... if they have issues with honor, send them packing.

I don't need to hear sob stories about people's best friends who lied, were given a second chance, and now look good in uniform. I don't care. For me, it's cut and dry. Lie. Cheat. Steal. Attempt to deceive. You're gone.

Now maybe Scratcher and Co. feel the need to defend "boys being boys" or "growing up". If there's so much "growth", should you really trust a cadet run honor board?

If the issue isn't the code. And it isn't the leadership. Then it must be the cadets.... because if it isn't.... well, there are MUCH bigger problems at USAFA. Or maybe we just want to chalk it up to the youngest service academy having some growing pains? I don't know. They've had more than their fair share of issues in the recent past (and not so recent past).

But, please, Zoomies, enlighten those of us who have not attended USAFA.... where are the issues, and why does it continue to get the attention at USAFA that it does?

 

[LineInTheSand]

LITS - It really does not help your argument to say that the USAFA honor system is flawed and then make repeated statements that you don't know the USAFA honor code, don't intend to read about it, etc. It simply narrows your argument to one of personal belief and that is not very convincing. As for honor in general, that is a subject that this group takes very seriously, which is evidenced by the passion expressed in this thread. But passion should not trump reason, and as reasonable people we should recognize our limitations and be humble enough to appreciate the challenge that such an incident poses to the leaders at USAFA. To simply dismiss the proceedings and to question outcomes when the situation is still evolving is truly not worthy of any of us.

I'm confused falconfamily. I will agree my experience is a "personal belief" found in the honor concept of the institution that I graduated from... and that I acted on those beliefs as a cadet. What is your experience with the situation that trumps my passion and reason?

 

[falconfamily]

I'm confused falconfamily. I will agree my experience is a "personal belief" found in the honor concept of the institution that I graduated from... and that I acted on those beliefs as a cadet. What is your experience with the situation that trumps my passion and reason?

LITS - I am not arguing that my experience with this situation trumps your passion and reason. I would not want to frame it that way - I am not that arrogant. Rather, in my decades of service in military and working in large organizations, I often found that things I read in the newspaper were incomplete and sometimes incorrect. I also learned that rumor was not a reliable source of information. Often times I would see things done that initially mystified me, but later when I was able to grasp the full rationale, it made complete sense to me.

My admonition is really no different than that of Bruno and others who are cautioning against a rush to judge the effacacy of the USAFA honor system or the competency of the leadership before we know the full (public) disposition of the the cadets implicated in this incident.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I often found that things I read in the newspaper were incomplete and sometimes incorrect.

Now you're speaking my language. Totally agree with that statement.

 

[2bornot2b]

FWIW, the SA's are not the only colleges with an Honor Code. The nation's second oldest institution of higher learning, the College of William and Mary, began a student run honor system in the late 1800's. I believe the system is still in place and still run by students. Princeton also has had a student run system in place for over a hundred years. There are at least several dozen others that have honor systems in place, and although most focus on academic integrity, there are several that extend their overview to other aspects of student life, including one that bans short skirts on women.

A common thread among them all is that lying,cheating and stealing are all proscribed. The sanction of expulsion from the institution is also common for all, but there is also provision for lesser sanctions and remediation throughout, depending on the particular circumstances, of course, but it is also not uncommon for the amount of time the student has been "in training" to be taken in to consideration when meting out punishments. I believe this is a complex issue that cannot be reduced to the black and white that some would prefer. While it is true that a 17 or 18 year old should be expected to know the difference between right and wrong, and we would wish to rid ourselves of any among them whom we deem dishonorable under the code, I believe that we should also understand that these same young men and women are in fact "in training" and it is our job to instill and promote the honor concept to and among them, and not just arbitrarily, once a certain date is passed, hold them to a standard they might not yet fully appreciate.

 

[Jcc123]

I am a bit surprised at the disrespect shown to veteran members of both the service and this forum by posters who I assume are current cadets. One valuable takeaway from your education at any of the academies should be the ability to actively disagree with someone while remaining civil and respectful.

 

[kp2001]

Folks,

As has been mentioned above by two other moderators the tone of this thread has taken a turn for the worse. Remember healthy debate is respectful. When starting a new post if you need to use another poster's name or the words 'your' or or something similar then I would think twice about hitting the 'submit reply' button because it is likely going to be thought of as a personal attack.

You can debate subjects without getting involved in personal attacks. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you need to berate them or tell them how "dumb" they are for feeling that way.

 

[burnerafter16]

"When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate." A.Whithecomb
and also,
"Every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names brethren of the same principle." Thomas Jefferson

Debate and difference of opinions abound in a free society. We're so blessed to have this freedom unlike North Korea or China where censure and intolerance is the norm.