USAFA Gymnastics

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by Blackbird, Sep 4, 2014.

  1. Blackbird

    Blackbird Parent

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    More poor decisions being made by IC athletes at USAFA. What a shame for those on the men's team who suffered. What a disgrace the offenders are. I hope the offenders get kicked out and sent a large bill.

    http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123423459
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
  2. Dad

    Dad Member

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    "Academy leadership has taken appropriate action against the responsible individuals."

    I just hope the punishment fits the offense. ICs are, arguably, treated differently than most cadets as they are held to the same academic standards while incurring a heavy toll on their time as a result of training and travel. While I support (not that anyone here on SAF or at USAFA should care what I think) 'appropriate action', I think that the "kicked out and sent a large bill" is a bit harsh. Since there is no 'tone' font, I want to be clear that I am NOT flaming Blackbird. I simply disagree slightly on a hot topic.

    My DS is not an IC, so I don't have a dog in this hunt. However, DS has roomed with several ICs during BCT and during the academic year. His experiences have been predominately positive regarding the NARP vs. IC gap.


    NARP = Normal, Average, Regular Person (a.k.a non-ICs)
     
  3. haleym

    haleym Member

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    I think your assumptions are very unfair. These men may have made a couple of bad decisions, but they are not bad people and certainly not a disgrace. It would be a lie to say that even the average cadet is not guilty of some of these things.
    Humans make mistakes. Cadets are human. It's only natural that we stumble here and there- and we pay for it much more than anyone will ever know. This is not an issue with integrity; if it was, I would completely agree with you. But it isn't. This is cadets being human. And I ask that you and other forum members do not judge them too harshly when my wingmen, friends, battle buddies (or whatever you'd like to call them, I suppose) are paying their dues and learning from their mistakes.
     
  4. Blackbird

    Blackbird Parent

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    Haley, I appreciate your blanket defense of all your wingmen. However, in this case I am not making any assumptions. I have detailed knowledge of the "unprofessional" activities that have been tolerated and covered up for a long period of time within the Men's Gymnastics Team, but I will not share the details on this public Forum.

    Your posts on the Forum are clear evidence of your commitment to the values of the Academy. Unfortunately not every USAFA cadet shares your commitment to those values. For your sake, and the sake of the many cadets, officers, and airmen who do share those values, these bad apples need to go.
     
  5. Blackbird

    Blackbird Parent

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    Dad, sent you a PM.
     
  6. BlahuKahuna

    BlahuKahuna Member

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    Well, I wouldn't say that I hope they get sent a bill unless they've already committed and their offenses were disenrollment worthy. I don't know enough details to have an opinion one way or the other.

    That said, I hope if their offenses carry similar consequences that non-athletes have had in the last couple of years.

    PS-They're making a serious effort to stop the use of NARP as a term, it's even listed in the CSP as an inappropriate term of address.
     
  7. billyb

    billyb Member

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    If it is underage drinking then they aren't doing anything that most other college kids are doing. We do have to remember that these are not adults and make poor decisions at times.
     
  8. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Billyb,

    Yes most college kids do drink underage, but I disagree with you. The fact is every college that I know of makes a student sign a zero tolerance paperwork if living in campus housing. All of my kids know at least one student that got kicked out of their dorm each and every year for drinking underage.

    Now, if that student is ROTC the college must report it to their detachment CoC. At that point the cadet will most likely be placed in front of a review board for dis-enrollment. Typically at that time their scholarship would be suspended while awaiting the outcome, and also may be tolld that they cannot participate in ROTC. The current environment of drawdown regarding personnel does not work in their favor for a waiver, especially if they are nor POCs yet. If they are it can be worse and be hit with the bill.
    ~~ I know of two AFROTC cadets that were not dis-enrolled, but basically told either you do it or we will. The difference is the form and paperwork. 1 was at my DSs unit and another was a friend of my DD at an SMC.

    So if they are doing this to ROTC cadets, why not do the same for the USAFA cadet especially when the cost to send them to CS annually is 5 times more and both paths result in ADAAF commissioning.

    I get that they are all human, but CS is a military installation too. That is a fact. Now, if some E3 living in the dorms got drunk what would you expect the Commander to do? Turn a blind eye and pretend they did not break the regulations? Sure, they probably will get a letter of counseling the first time out, but what if this is chronic? How many times before they say, sorry there is no room for you in this AF? I highly doubt that this is a one time deal where the cadet was so drunk he passed out in his vomit outside. I am guessing there were multiple incidents that included the same people, and in that case they lose my support. If they are POCs than they should be handed a bill just like an AAFROTC scholarship cadet.

    No flaming, but let's also be real if the defense is these are the smartest and brightest and fought to get appointed, than shouldn't be smart enough not to break the rules.

    Also, if the defense is another cadet over 21 gave me the booze, than that cadet should be in trouble too! The fact is if you live on base and gave your 18 year old too much alcohol, which resulted in an issue. The AD member would be standing at attention the next day.

    You can't have it both ways, get the bennies, but not be responsible to follow the rules.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  9. Iowa 73

    Iowa 73 Miner

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    The USAFA needs to strictly enforce the rules and not give preferential treatment to athletes. Period. All of the other cadets are honoring their commitment and all it takes is a few instances like this to create discord.
     
  10. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    This is all that needs to be done.

    No need to add any particular group in that statement.
     
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I also would like to point a key statement in their very carefully worded press release.

    INCIDENTS over the past year have revealed a PATTERN of unprofessional behavior and underage drinking by the Men's gymnastics team.

    I could probably float with a wrist slapping if the words that I capitalized did not insinuate this was a one time poor judgement, but multiple times of poor judgment.

    I could get behind them getting a slapping if for example at the end of the year, the team does their own type of combat dining in as a tradition and the issue came up because they had kids underage drinking from the alcoholic grog. In that perspective I think this would be a knee jerk reaction, and the AFA is wanting to send a strong message to all groups...We are no longer going to ignore this issue.

    In the end whatever they decide to do with these cadets it is the AF's decision and it is very rare that they will be able to overturn their decision even with a military attorney.
     
  12. haleym

    haleym Member

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    I still disagree. I know a 2014er on late grad for this offense and I know someone who was on the team as a doolie. The firstie is not a bad apple and the freshman was not scarred for life. Regardless of any details you believe you have, IMO it is not anyone on this forum's place to judge them. That is the Air Force's job and they are following through.

    We are aware the public expects more of us than they do of the average college student. However, that doesn't change the fact that we are going to make mistakes. You just don't hear about all of them. The same goes with police officers, medical professionals, etc. Not every one of them is going to make the right decision at all times. And to be completely honest, if that were the expectation, I myself don't deserve to be an officer.

    With that being said, even the most immature cadet I've ever met is still thirty times more mature and respectful than a young adult who is not a cadet.

    Everyone messes up. Some more than others. You are all free to hold and express any opinion you have, but I think it would be nice if the speculations went away for a bit for once.
     
  13. billyb

    billyb Member

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    +1 ^^^

    I was a cadet many moons ago. A lot of cadets get slugs for doing things. It doesn't make them a bad person or a future bad officer. It is simply a growing pain and a lack of judgement.

    When I was a platoon leader in the Army we had many a time where we had troops drink too much and we just got them back to their room safely and made sure they didn't leave or do something stupid. While, I guess, they could have been disciplined unless it was a real issue or constantly recurring we didn't do anything beyond making sure everyone was safe.
     
  14. USAFA83GradWife

    USAFA83GradWife Member

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    I think Pima has it right. It's the "PATTERN of unprofessional behavior and underage drinking" that's the issue.

    I also wonder, were there upperclassmen present while under-aged teammates were drinking? Tacit approval? Turning a blind eye? I can see how this would be more serious than the drinking itself. But, since I don't have all the information - and even if I did, my opinion counts for exactly nothing. The USAFA will handle it and all my blustering about it won't change a thing. :thumb:

    - Proud Mom of USAFA 2018 Cadet
     
  15. Blackbird

    Blackbird Parent

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    I respect that you disagree with me and do it with passion. I do not expect you to change your mind and that's okay. But as a citizen of the US, I have the right to disagree with and/or judge the actions of the US military as a whole or any individual in the military. Once we lose that freedom, we are on our way to becoming The People's Republic of China. And as far as for the AF policing itself, at least one investigation into the actions of the Men's Gymnastic Team was initiated as a result of a civilian's complaint. Many of us civilians care about the Academy and cadets deeply. I'm just a glad that in this particular case, the civilian chose to report the problem to the Academy leadership instead of going directly to the media as has been done in the past.
     
  16. 24601

    24601 Member

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    There are rules and codes to be followed and every cadet is aware of which line should not be crossed. Cadets are not at a regular college. They signed up to a Service Academy. If some cadets are already breaking the rules this early, what should be expected later on after they commission? What message does it bring to those who follow the rules? It's OK to break rules until you are caught? While the taxpayer's are footing the $400K to provide tuition, food & boarding + salary, the expectations are rightfully higher. Those who think they can not live up to these expectations and feel they don't deserve to be officers and persist are only fooling themselves and should let those who are truly deserving remain.

    Maybe the core value for wayward cadets IC or NARP should be revised as such:

    Integrity when it's convenient
    Service for one's self
    Excellence??? Mediocrity=2.0 good to go!
     
  17. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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    I think you are very much confused. With the exception of a few 17 year old cadets, they ARE in fact all adults. Treating them as children directly fosters resentment and lowered expectations.
     
  18. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Haley,

    I mean this with kindness, but the problem with forums like this is it can be misinterpreted very quickly.

    Trust me, I have been taken out to the woodshed ALOT!

    I am with Blackbird on this issue.

    I would also like to point out your 30 times more mature could be read as offensive and arrogant. With that comment I wonder do you hang with your GFs from HS over breaks?

    I believe my 3 kids had a maturity level at the same level as you.

    Sorry, but I was truly offended by the 30x comment.

    I hope and believe that if they attended a college that places character into the equation, they would not find some lame arse excuse to remove their selves from a situation that they know did not adhere to the dotted line they sign on when accepting an appointment.

    You are giving a pass IMPHO for breaking the regs.

    I have to say, sorry I will not agree with you if your defense is 30x more mature! 30x more mature means when you broke the reg you wore 30x more aware it was wrong!

    The military is very clear cut on what is expected. Heck, as a senior in HS when you turn 18, your folks are locked out because you are no longer a minor!

    This life is something you volunteer for and accepted on I Day. You knew drinking underage was not allowed!
    ~ Your defense, they screwed up because of being young!

    I get your stance, but have yet to understand why AFA cadets should or shouldn't be kicked out. They broke the law for underage drinking and were caught. Can yo say with true belief they followed the honor code? 1 drink underage at the AFA or at abr says to me you broke the code!
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  19. Dad

    Dad Member

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    Thanks for helping me understand. :thumb:
     
  20. MedB

    MedB Parent

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    So I can say with confidence that I am 30x more of a hard-*** parent than most! :wink:
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014

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