USMA then jets

[LineInTheSand]

Yes, true.

 

[flieger83]

yea i guess i didnt explain myself very well. i applied to all academies. so far have an appt to USMA and USMMA. i didnt get into USNA and awaiting to hear from USCGA and USAFA.

i want to fly. i realize the USMMA has slots but im not interested in A. maritime degrees B. 11 month school year studying somethin i dont neseccarily care for while balancing a job as well.

USAFA was my first choice. I went to summer seminar and got best in my flight award; however whenever i do find out from them i would bet my math ACTs arent high enough for there exeedingly high standards.

i want to fly. that has been my goal from day 1.

so bullet any possible advice would be greatly appreciated in obtaining my goal. i no my mentality rite now may be a rather polish plan but im willing to try it.

SHORT comment here...

I have now trained 4 AF pilots isince I began flying that are are USMMA graduates.

They said that USMMA grad's can commission "into any service that will accept them, although most take a USNR commission." These guys went AF because guess what?

They wanted to fly!

So...you might want to chat with the USMMA folks a BIT more...

Just my 10cents worth.

 

[oldgrad]

im not interested in A. maritime degrees B. 11 month school year studying somethin i dont neseccarily care for

They wanted to fly!

So...you might want to chat with the USMMA folks a BIT more...

I somehow doubt that they will add majors which he likes just for him.

As an aside, did the rest of your students not want to fly?

 

[flieger83]

I somehow doubt that they will add majors which he likes just for him.

As an aside, did the rest of your students not want to fly?

Well, yeah, the major's thing might still be a problem.

But as for flying, since I train AF pilots...yep, they ALL want to fly!

 

[unitedstatesAFA2013]

Doesn't this question go back to- why choose one appointment/academy over the other(s)?

Personally, I started my application to both AFA and MA, but around October I stopped filling out my MA application. I didn't send my CFA scores, one of my senator's office (the other senator that hadn't given me the nomination to AFA) asked me if I was sure I wanted to cancel the interview because they could still nominate me to MA-I said yes: I had no interest in West Point anymore. I just saw no other place I would like to attend other than AFA. Not only because I want to be a jet pilot, but also because to me, any other career option would be awesome to have.

I guess what I'm saying is- there is no such thing as being 50-50-50-50-50 on the academies. Unless your goal is to serve (regardless whether you're in a submarine, a tank, or bomber), then you're going to have an inclination toward one academy more than the others. If you want AFA, do not settle for any other. Take the advice others have given and apply to a 4-year college and try again next year. This is what I would have done had I not received an appointment.

good luck.

 

[LineInTheSand]

With that in mind, just remember more than one branch has jets, and the Air Force isn't only made up of pilots. Want to babysit nuclear missiles? That's an option too. Going to AFA does not mean you will always be a pilot.

 

[Pima]

Very true LITS

I typically get yelled at for saying this, but here I go again on my soap box.

DO NOT ATTEND ANY SA JUST TO DO A PARTICULAR JOB AFTER GRADUATION, YOU SHOULD ATTEND FOR THE EDUCATION THAT THE SA'S PROVIDE

It is great for that dream to exist, but realize you will have many twists in the road before you get there, especially for Pilots! You will have to be medically qualified (eye sight and sittng height), than you need to graduate and get commissioned, than you need to graduate from UPT and than FTU. You are looking at a lot of hurdles to jump. The worse part is when somebody has had for 10, 15, 20 yrs the dream of flying fighters and they get a heavy track (nothing against heavies), but if you have always envisioned yourself as Top Gun shooting down bad guys, how much fun is it when your aircraft is lowering the boom for that pilot. I respect everybody, so don't jump on me for insinuating anything else, but to just remember there is a very long road to haul, but the commitment will not change.

Just as you made back up plans for the SA's, do yourselves a favor make back ups for afterwards also. In the mid 90's the AF shut down the pipeline in a matter of months, not yrs. You could enter in Aug of 12 with the thought that you are suppose to go UPT, and they can come to you in Dec and say we closed the pipeline, you can only get heavies or predators, or even say due to your class rank, you don't make the cut. Trust me that happened. So as long as you say I want to be in that service and not that job, you'll be fine.

Good luck

 

[oldgrad]

I typically get yelled at for saying this, but here I go again on my soap box.

DO NOT ATTEND ANY SA JUST TO DO A PARTICULAR JOB AFTER GRADUATION, YOU SHOULD ATTEND FOR THE EDUCATION THAT THE SA'S PROVIDE

There is probably as many reasons for attending a SA as there are candidates showing up on I-Day. Some are more noble than other, some are more realistic. But to say one is right and the other is wrong is not very meaningful or realistic. Each individual has a specific set of goals which help them cope. Some need them more than others. Some need them to be more specific than others. Yes, some will fall short. Perhaps they will be disappointed. Perhaps they will compromise and move on. Perhaps when they become a part of a like-minded group of 5000 others, they will modify their goals. Perhaps as they become immersed in the mission of their particular service, the intensity of their original goals will lessen. Perhaps they would not be there even to start the process without their specific personal goal. Remember, they are showing up as a rough piece of clay and will be molded throughout their 4 years which incidentally is another reason, other than education, to attend a SA.

I would also say that if one’s primary reason to attend a SA is for the education, perhaps they might consider elsewhere. There are as good or better educations out there with a lot less hassle. The one true fact is that the SAs are the best preparation for service in the military. Everything else is secondary.

 

[unitedstatesAFA2013]

There is probably as many reasons for attending a SA as there are candidates showing up on I-Day. Some are more noble than other, some are more realistic. But to say one is right and the other is wrong is not very meaningful or realistic. Each individual has a specific set of goals which help them cope. Some need them more than others. Some need them to be more specific than others. Yes, some will fall short. Perhaps they will be disappointed. Perhaps they will compromise and move on. Perhaps when they become a part of a like-minded group of 5000 others, they will modify their goals. Perhaps as they become immersed in the mission of their particular service, the intensity of their original goals will lessen. Perhaps they would not be there even to start the process without their specific personal goal. Remember, they are showing up as a rough piece of clay and will be molded throughout their 4 years which incidentally is another reason, other than education, to attend a SA.

I would also say that if one’s primary reason to attend a SA is for the education, perhaps they might consider elsewhere. There are as good or better educations out there with a lot less hassle. The one true fact is that the SAs are the best preparation for service in the military. Everything else is secondary.

Well said.

 

[oldgrad]

Well said.

Thanks. It needs to be said.

There seems to be an insidious undercurrent by a few posters on these forums to discourage specific goal setting. We need to nip it in the bud.

Most schools of thought is that the more specific and difficult the goal, the more one is motivated. Therefore, one who wants to be a fighter pilot will be more motivated at AFA than one who wants simply to be an officer. The bottom graduate in the class will be an officer but will he become a fighter pilot, where superb performance is required to be average. I doubt it. Simply by having the goal and striving for it will make him more prepared to succeed at it. The more hurdles and adversities along the way, the better the fighter pilot.

Further, a sign of maturity is the ability to modify ones goals in the face of reality. Therefore, the anecdotal evidence of the grad who, since he did not get fighters, spends his minimal service obligation with poor performance and a bad attitude has not matured and is not the type of officer the military wishes to retain anyway. His goal was not the problem. It was his lack of maturity. I would say good riddance.

And we have not even begun to address that in the four years as a cadet as one becomes exposed to the many career paths and the faculty who have chosen them, goals may change. All for the better.

 

[Bullet]

Oldgrad,

There is NOTHING wrong with specific goal setting, and no one here has discouraged any of these propestive candidates for an academy NOT to strive for a specific goal. What you have interpretted as discouragement, I interpret as "set those goals, but don't let that ONE goal be the ONLY reason you apply, on the chance that you might not get that one and only goal".

You are spot on in regards to keeping goals as the motiviation to get you through the difficult challenges these youngsters will face while at the academies, and how using this motivation to rise up to these challenges will make them a more mature person and officer. And I read your message as "Set that goal and strive hard for it, always. You might not get it, but the ordeal will make you a better person and officer." I concur 100% with that sentiment. And I believe everyone you labeled at least 69 times as nay-sayers also agrees; we just add the caveat of "have a plan for what are you going to do if this unfortunate thing happens."

But I see itas a dis-service to these young men and women on here if the message is to ignore the realistic possibilities that you will not get that dream job you've been striving for since your pre-teen years, and that dream is the ONLY reason you're willing to go through the trials of an academy experience. There is NOTHING wrong with the message of: "Strive for that dream, push for it every day, but be prepared and realistic in your desires if something along the way stops you from getting that dream." I'm sure an ALO or BGO would become very worried during an initial interview with a prospective cadidate if all the young man or women talked about was how they wanted to fly the latest and greatest fighter jet, and nothing else will do for them. I'm pretty certain they would have words for them in the vein of: "OK, but what happens if you don't get that fighter? Or you become medically disqualified your junior year at Academy XXX? Will you still strive 110% everyday while there and in the service?"

You speak of motivation and maturity, which is fine. I speak of the having witnessed a person's life long dream crushed around them when they didn't get that one and only goal. It takes a LOT of maturity to get through those first few days and years when that happens. You've also stated that there are posters here with the wrong agenda in this regards. I see it simply as a difference in opinion in how best to advise these young persons on this forum. But in all honesty, I feel most of people here appreciate and understand both, and quite frankly, the two sides are in agreement for about 95% of this issue.

 

[unitedstatesAFA2013]

Bullet,

I would side by you if the "do not..etc" wasn't in bold letters and made larger than the rest. If I'm correct, what this is trying to say that there is no other way to think than that specific way if you want to get through those 4 years at the academy. I'm sorry but from experience in high school, I think I'll support what OldGrad is saying.

For example- Since I was in 5th grade, I wanted to become a doctor (because my mother's a doctor and my father was doctors). My idea of what kind of doctor I wanted to be fluctuated. I started out wanting to be a pediatrician, then as my teen years arrived it changed to plastic surgeon (go figure), and in high school I completely fell in love with being a cardiothoracic surgeon. I spend all of those years with the goal of going med school after college and so I had it stuck in my brain that I needed perfect grades in order to accomplish that dream. Well, to everyone's surprise, a friend of mine from West Point points out to me, over the summer, that there is an Air Force Academy of equal importance to his school. Previously, I was always fascinated with jets and bombers, but it was always out of the question. Turns out I completely fell in love with the idea of becoming an officer and getting to fly. If I couldn't make it as a pilot there were always other things like nuclear supervision jobs and what nots, so I completely gave the idea a "go" and completely ignored applying to Columbia, Johns Hopkins or Georgetown (one which I always thought I would attend).

So in conclusion, If I hadn't strived to become a doctor, do you think that I still would be the motivated person I am today? One that could achieve grades, leadership, and service well enough to receive an appointment to the Air Force Academy? I doubt it. I remember more than once I had to convince myself that to get to medical school I'd have to put that beer down, or not touch that cigarette or joint. Now my goal at the academy should be what Oldgrad agreed it should be- whatever it motivates me to excel. And this so happens to be that I want to be a (really good) fighter pilot that serves his country. But what are the qualities of a (really good) fighter pilot? The same qualities of a (really good) officer. So striving for one and coming short doesn't mean I'll be a complete disappointment... Hopefully the academy is good enough to make me both

 

[Pima]

^^^This all maybe true about becoming a doctor. However, if you get good grades and do great on the MCATS you will be able to fulfill that dream. Now let's copare it to becoming a pilot.
IF you injure yourself, not enough to lose a commission, just enough to DQ you for flying, it doesn't matter...YOU WILL NOT BECOME A PILOT.
IF the AF shuts/slows down the pipeline, like it did in the mid 90's you can be the hottest flyer in the world...you still will not be going to UPT and getting fighters. In 92/93/94/95 time period. The pipeline came to a sudden stop. The top graduate got heavies and had to wait yrs to become operational because of going on casual status between programs. Many universities might lower the number of aceeptances, but the last time I checked there are more Med schools than the AFA has for UPT.
IF you attend med school there is no written obligation that you will work for a certain company for a certain amount of time, caveat unless you are employed by them while taking the loans...don't know, but I believe there are not many docs out there that went to med school on a company's dime. You may take loans, but FAFSA couldn't care less whether you are working as a doc or a garbage man as long as you pay it back.

The point I continue to make is that you might not become a pilot and to join the AF for that one and only desire is IMVHO not a good enough reason. To serve as an Officer in the AF should be your main goal, no matter what job they assign you. As you progress as an officer and a flyer you will ste out of the jet, it is not as if you will spend 20 yrs only flying, you will do other things also, thus, you might be unhappy. You can elect to try and stay in the jet for 20, but you will retire as a major and not an LtC or Col., we have several friends that will tell you how to do that if you want, but now when they receive close to 10K a yr less in retirement pay they are not so sure that it was worth it.

I personally hope everybody gets their dream of flying, but as a spouse who saw many of Bullets friends never make it to the operational world from the day they commissioned, not everybody will earn those wings and then they are left with the what should I do now, since I have 5 yrs left. Only the top 10% of grads get Fighters, and I am sure that number will decrease. These officers all proved themselves high enough to get to UPT, but UPT is not just about being book smart, handling the stick and SA is a big part. Bullet was double crewed at FTU, 1 pilot (AFA grad/FAIP) graduated, the other (AFA grad) was FEB. He owed back his 8 yrs to sit at a desk. Another AFA instructor there right now, washed out of UPT, he now is a LtCol. and was placed into A&F, than eventually maintenance. Another AFA grad ex-football player, injured his back as a young Capt. he never flew again. He retired out of the AFA about 2 yrs ago as a COL. It happens. It is not uncommon, and those that had back-up plans became successful officers with great careers. Those that only wanted to fly did their time and dived, b/c that was all the AF meant to them.

So it is great to dream, but also try to keep some reality in that goal.

 

[Christcorp]

Setting goals is extremely important. Yes, it provides the motivation to excel. But it is equally important to have a backup in case what your goal is becomes unobtainable or just as likely, no longer a desire.

One thing I have always said to those on this board; applicants I've spoken with in our local town and out at the base; and those in the process of applying to the numerous academies. Going to a military should NOT BE YOUR GOAL!!! Military academies, just like traditional colleges but with a different level of importance and commitment, are a MEANS and TOOL to reaching your goal(s). If you grow up and you really want to fly jets, then that's a goal. A goal should be something that is separate and finite in it's accomplishment. Scoring 15 goals in a soccer season is a goal. Going to a soccer camp to become a better player should not be a goal. However, many people make the means, their goal. So, if you want to become a fighter pilot, doctor, engineer, etc... Those are admirable goals. But don't make the school you go to your goal. AFA2013; you mentioned that you wanted to be a doctor at one time. An excellent goal. You then mentioned possibly getting accepted to Columbia, Johns Hopkins or Georgetown. Excellent! You stated different means by which you could obtain your goal. You could have just as easily added one of the military academies to that list of schools as a means of reaching your goal of becoming a doctor.

So, when setting your goals; whether it's pilot and jets, doctor or lawyers, or whatever; make sure you look at the right goal. Don't make the means the goal. Also; realize that for whatever reason, sometimes certain goals change or become unobtainable. As such, have a backup. I.e. To be a pilot in the Air Force, you can have a degree in literally anything offered. So, if you get that degree in "History", but for whatever reason you can not become a pilot, will that means you chose help you when you reaccess your goals?

No one is discouraging anyone from setting goals, living their dream, and excelling. But keeping it in perspective is important. At the air force academy; roughly only 50% will get a UPT slot (Pilot slot). Of those roughly 400-500 cadets; only a certain percentage will graduate flight school. Of that percentage, only so many will get the fighter jets. So will get heavies and all their way down to prop planes and other types. There's no discouragement here. But throwing in some reality and perspective once in a while actually makes the goal more obtainable. Because you've got back up plans. I.e. You don't have to go to the academy to fly jets. Many ROTC officers fly jets. Just like going to the academy doesn't guarantee you'll get to fly jets or fly at all. But choosing the military academy gives you a better chance. And is flying the actual goal or is flying in the military and a the military as a career/lifestyle the goal? (Minimum 14 years - 4 in the academy and 10 in the military). There's a lot of commercial and private pilots who were never in the military. Again; make your goals, but make sure you don't make the means a goal. It's too finite and superficial.

 

[unitedstatesAFA2013]

I used the med school example to say that even though it isn't what I ended up doing, it still made me the kind of person that I like being. Again, you take things too literal.

What will you say to those cadets at AFA right now taking extracurricular classes that will aid them in getting more practice so that they can fly better? What about those that are giving up their dreams of majoring in say Humanities or English just because they want to become test pilots and have to major in aeronautical engineering or whatever the major for that is? Seriously, there has to be some basis for the futures that the cadets choose to take, otherwise everyone would create a single major of Officer Training. But they don't because just by attending the school for 4 years, everyone is pretty much a major in that department by graduation. So what are people supposed to look forward to? Sure there are PLENTY of ifs to becoming a pilot...or ANYTHING else anyone wants to do. Anyone that doesn't realize this...well...I feel sorry for them. But that doesn't mean that you can't strive for that KNOWING that your chances are slim. Like we've said before...it's something to keep our heads up in that place. So the point is not that "you might not get the pilot slot," but rather that "you might."

 

[LineInTheSand]

Bullet,


So in conclusion, If I hadn't strived to become a doctor, do you think that I still would be the motivated person I am today? One that could achieve grades, leadership, and service well enough to receive an appointment to the Air Force Academy? I doubt it. I remember more than once I had to convince myself that to get to medical school I'd have to put that beer down, or not touch that cigarette or joint. Now my goal at the academy should be what Oldgrad agreed it should be- whatever it motivates me to excel. And this so happens to be that I want to be a (really good) fighter pilot that serves his country. But what are the qualities of a (really good) fighter pilot? The same qualities of a (really good) officer. So striving for one and coming short doesn't mean I'll be a complete disappointment... Hopefully the academy is good enough to make me both

Having read that, I would caution everyone to build up in their minds and on their grade sheet that the only place they could stand to be is an academy. I don't think it's the best advice to have people gear their entire pre-HS and HS "careers" to be in one mode, but as we have seen on here, not everyone will get that. I don't doubt that I am not alone in not knowing much about service academies until my senior year. I did not gear my high school experience, leadership positions and sports toward as a means to an end, and that end being an appointment to a federal service academy.

Even IF you make it in, a flight school billet isn't always in your deck. The Coast Guard has the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE (and percentage is the key word there) of flying billets for a sea going service, and I'll tell you, that's not a whole lot. We had about 205 people graduate in my class from the Academy, and I believe 10 or 12 of them went straight to flight school. A fellow JO on my first ship wanted flight school more than anything. He didn't get it. Instead, he preformed so well during his first tour that he got picked up for an XO billets on a 110' cutter in Alaska. His career path changed drastically from what he had expected it to be just 10 seconds before he got his assignment our senior (Firstie) year.

 

[LineInTheSand]

So the point is not that "you might not get the pilot slot," but rather that "you might."

I disagree. The point is, once you've built up in your mind, for a lifetime, that you will be a pilot, and you're competing for 100 other people who have built up in their life times that the only thing they will be are pilots, are you going to be ok with the next thing? If you're looking at USNA, and all you want to do is fly F/A-18s, will you be ok flying a helo? What if you don't even get a helo, and instead have to drive a frigate around, would you be ok with that.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst. This doesn't only apply to selecting academies, branches within a service...it applies to any long term plans you may have. You don't want to be the guy sitting there on billet night after you just found out where you're going thinking "oh no, what have I gotten myself into......5 years of THIS".

 

[unitedstatesAFA2013]

I disagree. The point is, once you've built up in your mind, for a lifetime, that you will be a pilot, and you're competing for 100 other people who have built up in their life times that the only thing they will be are pilots, are you going to be ok with the next thing? If you're looking at USNA, and all you want to do is fly F/A-18s, will you be ok flying a helo? What if you don't even get a helo, and instead have to drive a frigate around, would you be ok with that.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst. This doesn't only apply to selecting academies, branches within a service...it applies to any long term plans you may have. You don't want to be the guy sitting there on billet night after you just found out where you're going thinking "oh no, what have I gotten myself into......5 years of THIS".

thanks for restating what I said.

 

[LineInTheSand]

No, you apparently are still missing the point. The might v. might not.

 

[oldgrad]

And I believe everyone you labeled at least 69 times as nay-sayers also agrees; we just add the caveat of "have a plan for what are you going to do if this unfortunate thing happens."

Perhaps it is the, in my perception, overly pessimistic 'Chicken Little' tone of these posters with which I have the most problems.