USNA via NROTC?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by hooyahmicah, May 20, 2007.

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  1. hooyahmicah

    hooyahmicah Member

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    In a nutshell: I've been rejected for USNA and offered a full-ride NROTC offer to VMI (my first choice school).

    I didn't actually expect to get offered an NROTC scholarship and obviously was hoping to not be in a position to have to decide, however, here I am. I mainly signed up for the quicker DODMERB and to tell the nomination board I did.

    Anyhow, a few weeks after the USNA rejection letter, I got the NROTC letter. My BGO has hinted that NROTC is not the best way to get to USNA, and CDR Bailey at Greystone Prep school has told me that it is definitely not a good idea. I was already very much on the fence, and since a bunch of advice from the other board, I'm really wondering.

    I've wanted to be in the Navy since I was 7 years old. I've wanted to go to USNA for maybe 4 or 5 years. Everything in my life since just before high school has been geared to USNA. NROTC (particularly VMI) is certainly respectable and will get me a career in the Navy, however, USNA is definitely what I want, for a number of reasons.

    So, should I take the VMI scholarship? Do you any of you have any experience/knowledge of this? Will taking the ROTC hurt my chances at USNA or increase them or make any difference at all?

    thanks,
    micah Ables
     
  2. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    What did your BGO say was the best way to get to USNA?

    Have you discussed your package in depth with the CGO to determine the reasons for your rejection?

    Did you ask Cdr Bailey of Greystone why he made the observation that he did?

    NROTC is a recognized path to USNA and each NROTC Commander is authorized to officially nominate three candidates each year.

    Of the 75 or so candidates who have completed a non-Academy non-Navy sponsored year of prep work, the vast majority, around 90%, is college level instead of prep schools. The Academy itself recommends a good college and enrollment in calculus, history, chemistry, and English composition. Why would participation in ROTC not make this an even better plan?

    With your discussions, why do you feel that NROTC would not be a good path for reapplication to USNA?
     
  3. K-Mom

    K-Mom Member

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    Greystone Prep vs. ROTC and other prep programs

    I tried to attach the following as a Word document but couldn't figure it out. So, following is MOST of the text from a letter Commander Bailey at Greystone is sending to imterested students. It addresses why doing NROTC and reapplying to USNA is not the best way to gain academy acceptance...


    Keep in mind, from the time you received that Academy rejection letter, a countdown clock has been ticking as you move toward your Induction Day, 2008. As a college-level candidate, you have this summer and the fall semester to demonstrate to an academy admissions board that you have the “right stuff” to be considered as a scholar, athlete and leader. Everything boils down to one question – how will you spend these precious few months between now and the time when the admissions board makes their decision regarding your appointment to the Class of 2012? For those considering Greystone, know that we make every moment count by providing a challenging 3-prong approach to academy preparation: college-level academics that are in-sync with academy academics, rigorous PT and sports program designed by academy athletic departments to increase your overall strength and conditioning and most importantly, exposure to real leaders who are academy graduates and career officers who will present you with character and leadership training. Our intent is to keep you focused in order to maximize every minute – we will not waste your time with “busy” work or unchallenging, repetitive high-school academics!

    For those considering Greystone at Schreiner University, let me offer a look at the big picture. There are plenty of programs around the country that offer to “prepare” you for the rigors of the academies. As you evaluate your options, consider each prep program from the standpoint of its parent institution to ensure the program is fully capable of meeting your individual academic, athletic and leadership development needs. Any program must be able to raise you up from the high school level to the college/university level if you are going to make a smooth lateral transition from that prep program to the academy – very few programs are designed to do that!. Ask about the prep program staff qualifications – are there any academy graduates in their prep program staff and does the staff have real academy/military experience that would enable them to deliver a true “academy prep” experience. The answers may surprise you!

    If you are considering a civilian or military private school, know that these institutions are in business of providing younger students (typically grades 6-12) with a highly structured and supervised middle and high school education. Post high school academy prep is typically a low-cost “add-on” program (glorified grade 13) utilizing their existing high school level courses (hence the low-or-no-cost) to overcome your academic weaknesses. Most of these programs do not offer college-level academics. Candidates who do not receive an appointment again will have wasted a year academically (they still have not started their college education) and have spent a great deal of time and money for basically no gain. There is very little in terms of “return” provided for such an investment and I do not recommend this course of action.

    If you are considering going to a civilian college or university, in my opinion, you are on the right track (it is the level of course work the academies recommend for those candidates reapplying)! Real college level courses will expose you to the right level of academic expectation, but keep in mind that while you are engaged in 18 credit hours of college courses, the entire academy application process will be up to you to complete without specialized assistance and coaching. This also includes all administrative work needed to earn your nomination. There are very few institutions with academy experience or political expertise that can effectively assist you in either task. The Greystone team becomes your personal advocate with the Academy admissions and Congressional staffs. Achieving your maximum potential academically is challenging enough without the added load of reapplying for your nomination or appointment to the academy!

    If you are considering prepping through an ROTC program, know that they are not in the business of prepping candidates for academies. ROTC programs are not funded to support academy prep programs nor are they staffed or trained to meet your very specific needs – they are in the business of preparing college students over a 4-year period to become reserve officers upon graduation and they do that task very well. Due to the additional time requirements of the introduction into the ROTC college-military lifestyle and introductory military academic courses, there is little time to dedicate to your application for academy appointment. With the added initiation and academic burden, it is not unusual for freshman ROTC students to perform below standard (2.0 GPA) which will have a negative impact on your application to the academy admissions board, (as a reminder, you will be competing with other college level candidates who have not incurred the added service obligation). I know some of you are attracted to the ROTC option because of the potential for lower cost education, but ask yourself what is the value of your dream to attend the academy? From that perspective, the low-cost ROTC option becomes a very expensive alternative dream – especially considering that this option has only a 2% success rate toward academy admission!

    Given all options, consider what you will be doing to maximize this year (actually only nine short months) of prep. Will you be enjoying another year of high school or will you be alone on a college campus, perhaps burdened by ROTC initiation and basic military science classes? The academies recommend that candidates interested in reapplication enroll in a 4-year, fully accredited college or university and take math, science and English courses. Not one academy recommends another year of high school nor do they recommend using the ROTC as a prep institution.

    As a Greystone student, you will be guided through a structured and organized program designed to meet your specific needs – for your academy appointment and to maximize your 4-year academy experience. As a member of the Greystone team, you will follow the recommendation of the academies and be enrolled in a 4-year, fully accredited institution – Schreiner University. Over 9-months, you will take 36 credit hours worth of Calculus, Chemistry/lab, English Composition, U.S. History, Economics – the exact courses you take as first-year cadets or midshipmen.

    Greystone will also challenge you physically unlike any other academy prep program. The PT program employs exercises designed by LT Stew Smith, former Navy SEAL and currently the USNA Plebe Physical Education Program coordinator, to significantly improve your overall strength and conditioning. On average, Greystone students improve their CFA scores by 24%.

    Most importantly, the academies are looking for candidates with proven leadership experience. As freshmen on a college campus, in an ROTC program or as “prepsters” at a military or civilian school, you will not assume leadership roles nor will you comprehend the true meaning of responsibility and accountability. At Greystone, you can experience assignments as a class officer, student senate representative, or one of many special projects coordinators. You will also receive leadership and character development training from career military officers who know the meaning of leadership, honor, integrity and courage.

    Unlike any other program in the country, Greystone was designed by faculty and staff from all five of the service academies specifically for candidates who want to reapply for an appointment. What this means is that Greystone is the answer to what the academies want in true preparatory education and training.

    As a Greystone student and member of the Schreiner community, you will be part of a close-knit team of highly motivated academy candidates who will become your friends, study and workout buddies, and eventually, academy classmates. The Greystone team also includes our staff, Board of Directors and Executive Steering Committee – all of whom have extensive academy experience (grads or faculty members) and/or are career military officers. Greystone delivers what the academies have asked for in academy preparatory education and training - university level education, specialized athletic/physical fitness development, professional academy leadership training and individual character development. Greystone candidates perform at a higher level while remaining completely focused on the goal of earning an academy appointment. Clearly, Greystone has set the new standard for academy preparatory education. The proof of our claim lies in the fact that 100% of all Greystone graduates have earned at least one nomination and over 90% of our graduates have earned at least one appointment. Unlike other institutions, Greystone listened to what the academies wanted in academy preparatory education and delivered a program that completely exceeded their expectations.

    As a “post high school candidate”, you will not be competing against next year’s high school candidates; you will be competing against others like yourself who are recent high school graduates and about to go on to college. For the big three academies – West Point, Annapolis and Air Force – that means for each academy, you will be in a pool of approximately 400 candidates. Through your performance, you must stand out from this select group academically, athletically and as a leader because each academy will only accept approximately 100 candidates from this pool. The question you should be asking yourself is how can you best stand out as a college-level candidate?
     
  4. GreatAmerican

    GreatAmerican Member

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    ^^^^^
    It should be obvious that Commander Bailey's letter is a marketing pitch for Greystone at Schreiner University. He has a vested interest in promoting his program over any other program.

    All NROTC programs are conducted at 4-year, fully accredited colleges or universities. The Navy doesn't care how you pay for the tuition and fees. If you can get Navy ROTC to foot the bill, you are better off. The Naval Science classes and drill/laboratory periods are a definite plus in preparing for USNA.
     
  5. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    K-Mom, as a "spokesman" for Cdr Bailey, could you please enlighten us on the quoted statistic.

    This post is a biased marketing pitch, pure and simple, and I am not sure it has a place in this thread. Example: As you picked up, GA, quite a bit of "smoke" on ROTC. This is very interesting considering NROTC is an officially sanctioned source for USNA with each unit's CO being able to nominate three annually. Therefore, they indeed ARE in the business of sending qualified candidates to the Academy.

    K-Mom, another "spokesman" question please: I notice that Cdr Bailey's photograph on the Greystone website is in uniform and since Greystone is not a military school, does this mean that he is still on active duty? Under what other authorization would he be allowed to wear the uniform?

    The last thing to think about. If one requires all this extra assistance to navigate the application process and extra motivation by an ex-Navy SEAL to pass the CFA, are they really motivated enough to succeed at the Academy?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2007
  6. kp2001

    kp2001 USMMA Alumnus

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    Here's the appropriate excerpts from the US Navy Uniform Regulations.

    "2. UNIFORM AUTHORIZED

    a. Retired personnel may wear uniforms at ceremonies or official functions when the dignity of the occasion and good taste dictate. Wearing a uniform is appropriate for memorial services, weddings, funerals, balls, patriotic or military parades, ceremonies in which any active or reserve United States military unit is participating, and meetings or functions of military associations.

    b. Retired personnel may wear the uniform of their grade while instructing a cadet corps or similar organization at approved naval or military academies or other approved academic institutions.

    3. UNIFORM NOT AUTHORIZED. Retired personnel are prohibited from wearing the uniform in connection with personal enterprises, business activities, or while attending or participating in any demonstration, assembly or activity for the purpose of furthering personal or partisan views on political, social, economic, or religious issues"

    So it looks like it would come down to whether Greystone is an "approved" academic institution. I personally have no experience with Greystone so can't answer that question.
     
  7. jamzmom

    jamzmom Founding Member

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    K-Mom - I have addressed some concerns in a private message to you. Please check your private message box.
     
  8. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    Thanks KP, As a retiree I am well aware of the uniform regs for retirees. I was specifically concerned about the same two items as those you highlighted. Since it is not a military academy and there is no corps of cadets, I think it would be difficult to prove that it is not being worn for at least indirect financial gain to the school. JMHO.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2007
  9. kp2001

    kp2001 USMMA Alumnus

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    I had no doubt in my mind that you were well versed, I wanted to make sure other's looking at the thread had an idea as to what the actual regulations were.

    I believe that your concerns are well founded. I had never heard of the place before and went to their website. Every email/contact info link goes to this one person and he is the founder/director so it makes me very suspicious to say the least. Is there any list produced of "approved" military schools? I really don't know and would be interested to see one.
     
  10. SubSquid

    SubSquid Member

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    http://www.usna.com/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?&pid=484&srcid=469

    Greystone is on the Foundation list. That may be the authority for the wearing of the uniform. Interesting sales pitch. Can't dispute or verify his numbers though.

    Since Greystone is Foundation, is he including his applicants into the total? Too many unknowns and assumptions.
     
  11. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    Yep, an interesting "one size fits all", "we're good, you're bad" approach to education. Last time I checked, we are not all 42Rs.

    New school, which I think first opened in 2005-2006 with a couple of Foundation students. (S)he did mention on an earlier thread that there were ten unofficial candidates this past year of which six received nominations. I don't have an update or any more quantities or statistics.

    I honestly doubt if he still wears the uniform. If you will note, it is an official USNA photograph taken when he was on active duty. It could be that he just used it on the website for commercial gains to infer official ties between his program and the Academy/Navy.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  12. jamzmom

    jamzmom Founding Member

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    As with all Prep schools including the Foundation programs, I truly have to hand it to all the kids who have made the decision to stick with that year of commitment and making it to their chosen academies. It’s a huge honor. We all know that to be true. My concern is that those kids seeking advice for next year not take the comment below too literally. This is just one of many options and the comment is one of many opinions offered. Several great academy kids have come from ROTC programs. At the end of the day, regardless of what program chosen or accepted to, the young man or young lady stands alone on his or her merit. They are all exceptional young people in their desire to look at the larger picture, sacrificing much in order to serve our country. Many congrats to all academies class of 2011.



     
  13. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    Great post, jamzmom. We can always count on you to ascertain the truly important points.

    This is not true. Remember that in the first tier of appointments, via your MOC, you will be competing, by one of three methods, against other candidates from your district alone. All other unsuccessful candidates will be placed in a single pool of "qualified alternates". US Code, Title 10, Chapter 603, Section 6956 applies:

    One pool and one method of "best qualified" selection only. Total whole person quality points are summed and the top candidates, in order, are appointed, no special qualifications or pool for those who have been out of high school for a year. This is federal law.

    An additional point to ponder. You apply during your senior year of high school and your total whole person quality points are found to be lacking. Subsequent applications, with very very few exceptions, taking the additional productive year into account, will only add to those points. You have not undone anything that initially gained you points. So, if you were one of the 25% who were 3Qed, but unappointed, you have only one direction to go, up.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  14. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    K-Mom, again as spokesman for CDR Bailey, could you please help me to understand why the Civil Prep, Foundation, and other alumni groups utilize these type institutions (other than for eligibility for recruited athletes) for their scholarships? Graduates of these programs attain an almost 100% appointment rate and, initially being sub par academically, have higher graduation rates than the student body at large. Something must work and I am almost positive that my Alumni Association is not frivolously wasting my contributions.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  15. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    This statement totally baffles me. Is CDR Bailey trying to insinuate that the CGO somehow gives negative whole person points to those who already have a military obligation?
     
  16. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    K-Mom, for Cdr Bailey: I have searched all available literature thoroughly and am unable to find a LT Stew Smith assigned to the staff at the Naval Academy. Is he new?
     
  17. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    Another example of advertising belittling all other forms of preparation other than Greystone Prep:

    http://www.greystoneprepschool.net/about/quiz.html

    A continuation of the quiz:

    Does CDR Bailey:

    A. Still have nightmares over his initial plebe year hair cut? Could be since his class reported in the summer of 1977 when a lot of kids had really long hair.

    B. Really believe that Greystone, being probably the only school in the US which would receive 30 points on his test, is the only school which can prepare candidates for the Academy and that his school is the best choice for everyone?

    C. Have the qualifications to teach ethics and integrity to his students considering the preying he has attempted on the insecurities of those unsuccessful candidates by planting unfounded fears that they can only be successful by attending his school?

    Observation: The prep programs are dealing mostly with academically substandard candidates. Over two thirds of each class enters the academies straight from high school. Any readmissions plan only has to prove to the admissions folks that these individuals can compete successfully with their contemporaries. My educated guess would be that an 'A' in calculus from State U would carry more weight than the same grade in "Honors" Calculus at Schreiner U or a junior college.

    Thought for the Day: USNA recommends candidates also apply to NROTC and weighs favorably those who do so. They would be slightly hypocritical if they denied admission to those who initially followed their guidelines and were unsuccessful in the first academy attempt but successful in the first NROTC attempt.

    Lastly: K-Mom, my understanding of your initial post on this forum was that your child was a successful product of Greystone which means a member of either the Class of 2006 or 2007. By having in your possession a copy of CDR Bailey's current letter, are you acting in the role of an overzealous previous satisfied customer or are you perhaps in a position of receiving financial gain by obtaining new students? Or maybe just a more simple question, is CDR Bailey aware that you posted the letter?

    I have about a dozen more observations from K-Mom's post but I don't want to get too far ahead of her responses.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2007
  18. K-Mom

    K-Mom Member

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    USNA69:

    Like it or not (and we all get it by now that you don’t) Greystone is a new prototype for academy preparation. I don’t want to get into a vendetta with you on this forum. I suggest if there is anyone interested in Greystone that they get their info and facts directly from the school and discuss with their BGO. http://www.greystoneprepschool.net/about/contact.html

    P.S. I resent you attacking my character! Biting my lip as I log off…
     
  19. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    K-Mom -
    My daughter is entering a year of prep for USMA this summer. She is being sponsored by West Point and Greystone is not a school that is on the West Point list.

    We picked Marion Military Institute which Cdr Bailey attacks in his literature as a 13th grade.

    I can assure you that after doing my research - I do not believe this is true at all. My daughter will be getting a year of college level courses which will transfer to most universities -
    This is a quote from the MMI website:
    Additionally, in 2006 all 26 cadets were accepted into the Service Academy of their choice. This program was established in 1907 and has a fabulous track record of success. Not only that - as a sponsored cadet - my daughter has a money back guarantee from MMI. Does Greystone give a moneyback guarantee?

    I know nothing of "New prototypes" of service academy preparation, but I will tell you that one's past record is certainly indicative of future success.
    I feel very comfortable in sending my daughter to a junior military academy - where she will take college level courses and be introduced to a military lifestyle to prepare her for West Point.

    What bothers me is that Greystone has to trash other programs to convince people (unsuspecting parents and students) that their program is the best program. That is unethical, in my book and certainly would raise a red flag if I was considering their program for my daughter. But maybe that is just me.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2007
  20. nurseypoo

    nurseypoo Parent

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    If K-Mom is a new academy parent (like myself), she's going by what people who are supposed to be in "the know" (like CDR Bailey) are telling her.

    I took her post as just trying to float some information out there, nothing else.

    I usually like this forum much more than CC because people are supposed to be more courteous and helpful. Some of the posts in this thread in response to her post are getting a little rough. :hammer:

    Please remember that we new parents need kind words of wisdom from those who have gone before. Let's try to be a little more gentle here.:angel:

    Love Always,

    Nurseypoo
    :stretcher:
     
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