WARNING!!!!!

Discussion in 'Nominations' started by Mongo, Oct 19, 2010.

  1. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    It’s that time of the year again. The MOC nomination process is picking up. Every year we will have a person come on the forum and state that since they have received word that they just received a Senatorial nomination that they have contacted their Representative and offered up their nomination slot to another. Aren’t they being magnanimous? Don’t be that person. Continue through to the conclusion every nomination for which you are eligible.

    Remember, assuming 3Qed, only one individual is guaranteed an appointment from the Senator’s list. The others are only eligible for the national pool. And I would never predict success in the national pool. Upper 1/3 of class profile on SATS/ACT, stellar academics, impeccable ECs? Maybe but not quaranteed. So unless you are absolutely positive that the Senator is one of the few who picks via the Principal method and that you are indeed his principal choice, you are not guaranteed of an appointment and should continue pursuing all nominations available.

    More may receive appointments from his list by being eligible for the national pool. However, even though the Senatorial list is probably that particular state’s cream of the crop, don’t count on it. The following is USNA specific. The number of those selected from the national pool is getting smaller each year. First, there is an increasing emphasis on retention. Since there is a congressionally mandated end strength of 4400 midshipmen, the size of each entering class must reflect the number already there. For each one percent increase in retention, there is probably a 15-20 appointee decrease in the size of the national pool. Secondly, the increased recruiting in before underrepresented districts. For every single appointment that comes from one of these districts, there is a decrease in the size of the national pool. Last year, don’t quote me, it was around 50. Thirdly, the quality of candidates has increased dramatically. If they let a highly qualified candidate fall through the cracks, there are several more of almost equal qualifications, ready to fill his slot. In the past, to obtain the absolute best class possible, Admissions would work with candidates, finding them appointments. Don’t count on it anymore.

    Half the class is filled by nominations from one’s local representative. It is one’s right to be considered for that nomination. Don’t give it up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  2. rkrosnar

    rkrosnar Member

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    WARNING!!!!

    MONGO

    Very well said, thanks for the post.

    RGK
     
  3. jennyp

    jennyp Parent

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    Great post, Mongo! One question.....if a candidate has an LOA conditional only upon securing a nom......can they be that magnanimous soul you mentioned and once they secure one nom, forgo the other prospects? Or should they pursue all noms until they are the proud owner of an appointment, IN HAND.

    I am asking because I foresee that being a question this year.....my advice would be go for all noms. Until you have that appointment in hand. Maybe I am being too conservative.
     
  4. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    Concur, EXCELLENT POST! :thumb:

    I don't have the numbers for USAFA but I would echo what Mongo is saying because the "trends" I see at USAFA sound pretty similar to what he posted re: USNA.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  5. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    I would never recommend that anyone quit pursuing all possible avenues until they had followed each and every one as far as possible. Not only does it perhaps ensure a greater chance of success in a field where you do not know all the parameters, it gives USNA greater flexability in filling the class with the highest quality candidates.
     
  6. marciemi

    marciemi USMA Alumnus

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    I agree with all that has been posted and will say that we tell our candidates to pursue (from a WP perspective) all nominations until that appointment is in hand and I do know my son (with the AF LOA) still went to his congressional interview and asked for a nom, even though he'd already received one from a senator. Now, I do have a candidate right now who (through a Presidential nom and an LOA) has received his appointment in the mail for WP, so I told him that he did not need to go to the senator interviews or pursue additional noms at this point. But that would be the only time I would do so.

    I know a lot of people say it only takes one nom to get in, which is of course true, but I think a lot of candidates new to the process and the boards don't realize sometimes that a nom isn't any kind of guarantee that you'll be getting in (prior LOA and Principal nom's notwithstanding). Instead, it's more just a way of telling you that you made the "Top 10 list" for that state or district. :wink: And technically (ignoring the NWL), only #1 out of that top 10 will get the appointment! So just logically, it's easier to be number 1 in your region/district than in the entire state. Think about it on an athletic level - our school has won districts many times in many different sports, but winning state is a very rare occurrence. Basically what you're talking about here!

    Now particularly in competitive states, many others from the same district may get in off the NWL, particularly at WP which seems to fill from there a lot more than Navy seems to. However, if you're from a not-so-competitive state like ours, the odds of competing against top candidates from states like California, Texas, Virginia, etc. are much lower. For many/most of our kids, the congressional is a make or break proposition. So I would absolutely tell them to apply/interview at that level, no matter what they have in hand at the time - other than an appointment! Great to be magnanimous, but not now when it's YOUR life and YOUR future at stake.
     
  7. mumsyto3

    mumsyto3 Member

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    I'm glad Mongo brought this up. I do remember this issue coming up last year.

    We are from one of those very competitive states. I can tell you that our Congressman and Senator #1's Academy Boards were in close contact with one another. We were told that b/o how competitive our state is that there would be no duplications of nominations. DS interviewed first with the congressman's board and then with Senator #1. We received a phone call from the Congressman's aide who said that Senator #1 was going to be nominating DS for USNA, therefore the congressman wasn't going to give him a nomination. (DS had an LoA contigent on a nomination only.) One week later, DS was surprised to see that he also got a nomination from Senator #2 (arrived in the mail a week after he received congratulation phone call from Senator #1.)

    DS felt "guilty" that he received 2 senator nominations when he had the LoA and only needed one.

    Bottomline, you're best off getting as many nominations as you can and let the MOC boards worry about who they are giving them to, particularly if you don't have an LoA.

    (Sorry, I cut/pasted and edited a post I made on another thread)
     
  8. Lynpar

    Lynpar Member

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    Would you say this idea holds true when speaking of a non DOD academy? yes I mean USMMA. As I understand there is no "primary" selectons only non- Ranked. Also we live in a land-locked state. Not a lot of requests for nominations for Kings Point. Shhhhhh, please don't let that get out until DS gets LOA to go with his senatorial nomination.
     
  9. HiMyNameisNick

    HiMyNameisNick Member

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    So if receive a nominatioon from my senator 1 or 2 or my rep...that isnt actually a nomination?
     
  10. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    No, a nomination from any of the three is a nomination, it makes you an official candidate, and the process begins full swing, if it hadn't already.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  11. dpt135

    dpt135 Member

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    Why would a MOC choose a slate over a principle nominee? It could happen , right,that a MOC offers up a slate and the SAs choose none. Where if they offer a principle they could at leat have one representing their state. My representative said she does a slate and lets te SAs pick because they know what they need more than her.
     
  12. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    The MoC may choose to nominate 10 candidates and then to allow the SA to select their appointee. That's done quite often.

    ONE of those 10 will be selected as the MoC has an appointment that must be filled, and the law says it must be from that MoC's district, etc...if a Senator, then from the state at large.

    Now I suppose it is "possible" that a MoC could nominate 10 individuals that do NOT meet the minimum legal standards for admission, in which case I suppose none would be appointed, but I think that is REALLY a far stretch. I've seen MoC's nominate folks that were NOT going to get in...but I can't remember any being nominated that didn't meet at least the minimum entry requirements.

    As for why a MoC would choose this method over the "principle/alternate" method...I have no idea. I asked my MoC why he does the "principle/alternate" and he said he prefers to be able to call the individual after the interview and not wait.

    Last year we finished all the interviews around 4pm...had our "rack and stack" and called the two "principle's" we had (2 openings at USAFA) around 5:30pm.

    That's a FUN phone call!!! :yay: :thumb:

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  13. dpt135

    dpt135 Member

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    Thanks for the info.
     
  14. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    To expound on flieger's info a little bit ---

    For every vacancy a MOC may nominate a slate of 10 individuals. Each MOC is allowed to have 5 candidates at each academy at one time which roughly works out to 1 per year. Sometimes the MOC will have more than one vacancy and in that case may nominate more than one slate of candidates.

    While the Academy MUST by law pick in order of merit when they are presented with an unranked slate --- the MOC is under no such requirement. They may name any nominee on their slate as the Principle if they choose.
    The Principle nominee will get an appointment only if they are found fully qualified to attend by the academy, this includes being medically qualified.

    Also - in some underrepresented districts where they only get a few applicants each year it's possible to not have a single qualified candidate. Some might be on the cusp academically and some might have trouble getting medically qualified. It is very possible that a MOC nominate a candidate that is not yet qualified.

    One more point - MOC's are looking at applications now. However, candidates have until late winter to complete and update their application. The most qualified candidate may change between now and the time when the nominees are due - late January since there is plenty of time early in the senior year to improve on the application.

    Flieger - I gotta tell you that turn around time was quick! My MOC interviews in early Nov and calls the Sunday before Christmas for a competitive slate. He submits his names to the academies in January.
     
  15. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    You answered your own question. Assuming you are using the term 'slate' for a competitive nomination (MOC allows the Admissions office to rank and choose), in either selection method, should there not be a 3Qed individual, none will be selected. Your statement from your MOC that "they know what they need more than her" is why around 75% of MOCs submit competitive slates to USNA. There is absolutely no way that a MOC with the limited information they receive from their application process determine what the Academy feels is the best candidate between two or three almost equal packages.
     
  16. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Seems like a great reason to eliminate the "Principal Candidate" nomination entirely, which has the potential for abuse - cronyism, favoritism, and political/financial paybacks.
     
  17. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Shocking! :eek: Our Members Of Congress would NEVER engage in any of the above!:rolleyes:
     
  18. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    In fact, why use the Congressional nominations at all?

    If (as Mongo states) the MOC really has no idea who is/are the best candidate(s), why is he/she even involved in the process?

    The academies know how to best select their candidates, adding the MOC is an unnecessary step in selecting the best possible class.

    (This is probably best discussed in a new thread)
     
  19. summer1942

    summer1942 Member

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    Since the number of nominations always greater than the number of appointments , then before submit the list, why the MOCs contact each SA and find out who are 3Qed's in their state/district ?
     
  20. Mom1315

    Mom1315 Parent

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    That is actually a NOMINATION (or 2)...it is NOT an APPOINTMENT...big difference. You need a nomination to get an appointment. An appointment is the goal. Good luck!
     

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