We are the 99%/Occupy Movement

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by SamAca10, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. SamAca10

    SamAca10 Ensign - DWO

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    http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

    I just want to see what people on SAF have to think about this movement. I think that a lot of people have gotten a raw deal in the sluggish economy, but some of this reeks of a sense "entitlement" to me. What does everyone else think?
     
  2. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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    The wealth disparity and current unemployment are not good things, so I agree that there is a problem.

    That said, I think many in this movement are either attacking the wrong people or are in it for themselves. The "forgiving ____ debt" is garbage, IMO. If you chose to take loans, it is your responsibility...especially student loans.

    IMO, the mixture of government regulation and incentives wound up greatly benefiting a few well connected people and creating large bubbles in the economy (that did self-correct in painful ways and will do so again). That is where I agree with the movement.
     
  3. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    I think they spit on a Coast Guardsman in Boston and I am comfortable painting them all as little #@$@.


    An organization earlier mentioned than if you are in the bottom 10% in the United States, you are still in the top 1% of the world. Are they protesting themselves?

    It's all relative. I'm in the 53% that pays federal income taxes. I'm solidly in the middle class. I'm unemployed (certainly not from lack of trying). I'm eating away at my savings....not unemployment checks. I am debt free and I'm in graduate school. I'm also in the 1% of America that's served in the military. Hippie idiots that make up the other part of the 99% I belong to can freeze this winter, for all I care, because they certainly don't represent me.
     
  4. rkrosnar

    rkrosnar Member

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    We are the 99%

    I can't agree more on this subject. These folks are looking for someone to take care of them, instead of standing up and taking some accountability and responsibility. I too am middle class and work very hard for what I earn. I have a son with a strong sense of entitlement. His Mother is in debt 80,000 dollars so he could go to school and that is just for him. He attended a job fair where he goes to school and spoke with a recuiter from the NSA. He tells his Mother that he will earn six figures with them in intelligence work. And he has no work experience to speak of. There will be a crash and burn, when he graduates, next spring.

    RGK
     
  5. Packer

    Packer Member

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    I am certainly not represented by the 99% crowd. Their is definitely a sense of entitlement there that does not sit well with me. The economy is in the tank and many have been hurt through no fault of their own but many have made the pain worse through their own actions. The high debt levels that many have taken on is certainly part of the problem. If anyone is looking for their debt to be forgiven they have immediately lost all respect from me.
     
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Just wait it will only get worse because everyday we are hearing about the student loan bubble. Now banks will have to deal with that while still dealing with the housing foreclosure crisis. If people believe we are in a double dip recession, just wait when these kids default on their FAFSA loans.

    I have to ask were they all asleep in their college Econ classes or accounting 101? What exactly did that college education teach them?

    I have no issue with the protests, but if you took just one business class you know that they don't care because you are not their customer, you are not their share holder, you make no impact on business as usual.

    What is sad, is they don't get who they really should be mad at for the loans and no jobs....the colleges! Since DS packed up for his 1st day at college 3 yrs ago, the tuition costs have increased 30%, while at the same time their endowment has grown too. I get an email daily from the college asking for money in some way or another...those little mid-term goody baskets that they sell out of guilt are not NFP sales, they are making money off of them.

    Many of us are in the college app process right no. Do the math, if they charge you $55-75 for the application and come April send you a congrat letter, it usually will state the amount of apps, and acceptances. I recall reading on our DDs letter 31K kids applied for 10K acceptances, and 4K matriculating. Multiply 27K by even $50, they took in @1 million just for applications.

    It is either Harvard or Yale, I can't remember, but their endowment is so large they can afford to pay for every undergrad and grad student for their entire academic career there just off the interest. (It is in the Billions) Yet, some kid is going to walk away with tens of thousands of dollars in student loans.

    Is that Wall Streets fault? No, it is our faults for allowing colleges to get away with this crap. Worse yet, we blame WS and than convince our kids to take more loans since nobody is hiring to go onto grad school.

    Rksonar, your post made me chuckle. Does she also believe in the Easter Bunny too? He is going to make 6 figures for NSA with no security clearance, and basically entering it as GS9 on a good day? GS 13/14's make 6 figures upon entering day 1, but most of them are retired military members with 20 yrs of experience and a Masters. Maybe you should email her the pay scale for GS jobs http://www.opm.gov/oca/11tables/html/dcb.asp That's for the DC area which is a high COL.

    I agree next spring will be interesting for your DS, but I have a funny feeling, your ex will probably believe in whatever he sells her.

    Good luck to your DS, I hope he gets a job, but I also hope he gets that because it will be a presidential yr, the corporate world usually steps to the side lines because they want to see who will be the next person sleeping in the WH. Obama currently is not seen as a def. 2 term president. That will put more companies on the side lines.
     
  7. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    X 10.

    Misguided idealistic youth looking for a cause, something to make them feel like they belong.

    Most are clueless selfish spoiled dope-smoking little rich white kids who in the grand scheme of the planet Earth represent the economic upper 1% of all humans on the planet.

    As they hold their corporate iPhones, wear their corporate JCrew sweaters, drink their corporate Starbucks coffee, and complain about corporations.

    Not to mention the anti-Semitic slant to their protests.

    They need to stop looking to the Govt as the solution to all their problems.

    :cool:
     
  8. Blackbird

    Blackbird Parent

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    Some are comparing the higher education bubble to the housing bubble that collapsed. College debt (1 trillion dollars) now exceeds the total amount of credit card debit in our country. The answer to both problems is not debt forgiveness but having the Federal government cease creating the bubble by pumping in massive amounts of inexpensive loans. However one important area were the bubbles differ is that Federally backed student loans are non-dischargeable through bankruptcy meaning for most borrowers the debt is FOREVER.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  9. Idzak

    Idzak Member

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    Luigi: Isn't that a pretty broad brush when we have no detail information on who the miscreants were?
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Yes, blackbird, but if you listen to Obama's new speeches he is stating they will cap at 10% of their income and it will no longer have the current time limit for repaying. He is saying they can go for 20 yrs, and after that OH WELL, you did what you could.

    What on earth? How can the govt sustain that debt?

    Again, IMPO the outrage should exist at the colleges for raising tuition rates by 10%+ per yr while COLA increases by 3%.

    Colleges are in a business, and believe it or not it really is no longer educating, it is about profits. If it was about educating, Duke would not have a 5.7 BILLION endowment from over 4,000 individuals.
    http://giving.duke.edu/endowment/ Harvard has 32 BILLION That is not a typo 32 not 3.2 http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/9/22/hmc-endowment-returns-2011/ Yale has a 19.4 BILLION endowment. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/29/business/yale-endowment-posts-return-of-21-9.html

    TAMU has 5.1 BILLION
    UVA has 5.24 BILLION
    UNCCH has 1.94 BILLION
    PSU has 1.46 BILLION
    UC Boulder 665 MILLION
    Rutgers 624 MILLION
    VT has 600 MILLION

    These are all state colleges and I did that on purpose to prove that IS colleges are just as greedy as Private.

    Have to say my favorite link for endowment was PSU.
    http://giveto.psu.edu/s/1218/index.aspx?sid=1218&gid=1&pgid=365
    I am not saying that it is wrong for someone to endow 5 Million to their college of choice. I am saying that these kids protesting, should see the debt you incurred came from those evil WS people. They gave to your education, and unfortunately your school decided to keep the money and make you incur the debt, even as an IS student.

    Like I said before they start with their post its about college loans and it is WS fault for not getting a job, and the cause of them defaulting, maybe they should look at who actually did assault them. These kids are carrying 5 figure loans for an education, while the colleges brag that they made a 21%+ return on their endowments, plus increased tuition by double digits while the economy is in the tanks.

    Is it really WS that put them in this predicament? Or is it greed on part of the colleges. Amherst's endowment per student is 794K. and they aren't the number 1. Stanford is 905K per student....they aren't number 1 either.

    Number 1....Princeton

    Endowment per student: $1,857,040
    Endowment: $14.05 billion
    Total enrollment: 7,567

    Although Princeton holds the number - three spot for the total size of endowment, on a per-student basis, no other college or university has more funds per student, according to data from NACUBO. As in most colleges, Princeton’s endowment was hurt by the recession, but its annual rate of return over the past decade still stands at 7.9 percent according to the university. From 2009 to 2010, however, its value rose by over $1.7 billion, an increase of 14.1 percent.

    Now tell me do you think the occupiers on Wall Street, who went to Princeton, knew that while they took a 100K loan to attend, Princeton actually had 14 Billion in their coffers, and had an ROI of 14%. That school employed WS to get the 14%, which they did not share with their students.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  11. Packer

    Packer Member

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    It is not the governments fault. It is not the colleges fault. Nobody made anybody take out huge loans. It is about personal responsibility which seems to be severely lacking.
     
  12. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    When everyone yells and screams that these kids didn't have to take these loans and it's all their fault:

    You have a 17-18 year old kid, probably with no more work experience that working a cashier or fast food window who has been told by everyone from family, friends, news, etc. that the only way they will be able to be successful is to enter a top notch school right away and if they do not they will not get a decent job. Their parents and prior generations took loans and are proud to have worked them off as a source of pride.

    So now we're yelling at these kids who, while very young and naive high schoolers, were told the only way to be middle class was to attend a good school and take a loan where even working in college may not dent it.

    I think the families of these young men and woman should also look in the mirror and those demonizing them for taking large student loans. I'm not saying the whole OWS crowd are victims here, but honestly, think again before not "respecting" anyone who took big loans, got an education, and now is looking around wondering where that job everyone told them would be available is.
     
  13. Packer

    Packer Member

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    If that was aimed at my post, I think what I meant was mis-understood. The respect issue comes from not expecting to pay back the loans. I also agree that we as a society have created a situation where loans are expected. This in turn drives tuition costs ever higher. Something is always worth what someone is willing to pay for it. And yes many young adults have followed bad advice from parents and others on the loan taking.
     
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Packer,

    Sorry, but I disagree to an extent.

    I agree nobody made them take out those loans. They did so willingly.

    However, as a taxpayer for my state, and one child IS, I find it offensive that the govt has not stepped in. They are laying off teachers in our public schools because we can't pay them due to RE receipts. Why can't they turn and say that tuition increases will be tied to COL? They already tie acceptances to a % for IS and OOS basing their argument it is tax payer dollars that fund IS colleges.

    Why should we just accept a 10% increase every yr for attendance, while they are also getting 15% ROI for the endowment?

    Should a lower middle income family say don't go to UVA (top 5 Public in the nation) because of loans? Would you say they are not responsible if they didn't qual for a Pell, took 25K over 4 yrs and did work study, knowing there is no guarantee of a job upon graduation. Or would you say GO FOR IT.

    NOW, BEWARE that is a slippery slope question.

    The slippery slope is for your child that may go ROTC there is no guarantee that they will:
    1. Commission
    ~~~Play flag FB on the campus quad, shatter the shoulder, get DQ...now they are at college, doing well, but scholarship is gone, along with commissioning.
    ~ Do you say to them uproot your life and leave? Or do you take into consideration the quality of the education and take huge loans?

    2. Child gets AFROTC scholarship
    ~~~ C200 yr, they are not selected for SFT. They are carrying a 3.2 gpa, but now the scholarship is gone, along with commissioning.
    ~ Do you tell them to transfer?

    3. Child does not get NROTC HSSP
    ~~~ Will you say to your child not to take the loan for that school, knowing all they want is to be a Naval officer and that school is the best chance?
    ~ Do you say to them you will go to this college because it is cheaper even though it doesn't offer NROTC...afterall you can go OCS/OTS upon graduation.

    It is so easy to say they made the decision when you are on the outside looking in. So much harder when it is your kid, their dream since they were 8.
     
  15. Packer

    Packer Member

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    As long as people are willing to take out big loans the cost is going to keep going up. Something is always worth what someone will pay for it. ROTC kids are such a small subset of people I don't even think they are relevant to this discussion. I look at the costs with my kids and we try to make a decision if it will "pencil out". If they lose a scholarship they realize they may have to transfer to a different school because it doesn't make economic sense. When kids get out of school with $80,000 in loans it is an anchor around their neck that will effect them for the rest of their lives. I am not saying never take out a loan but try and pencil it out and make a realistic risk/reward analysis.
    I do understand because I certainly didn't grow up with a silver spoon. I try to do my best to make sure that my kids also understand.
     
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Sorry, but IMPO, the kids have an issue about these loans hanging over their craniums, while they see millions being paid in bonuses to WS. They see that those millions could hire them.

    What they aren't getting is that college which for whatever reason you stayed and got a degree from also screwed you. They too were making millions, if not billions, they are just like WS.

    Honestly they are worse. They promised crap, didn't deliver and than said LOOK OVER THERE THEY ARE YOUR ENEMY! Because they aren't hiring, even though 4 yrs ago in our glossy brochures, and campus tours while handing out backpacks with our logos, we fed you the line... WE ARE THE ONES THAT COULD GIVE YOU THE BEST CHANCE IN THE WORK PLACE. Told you they had 95% placement, gave you a spiel about famous grads. The whole yadda, yadda, yadda. Many of the OWS bought what their college sold, and never once turned and said: BS...You have enough money to pay every tuition for every student for their academic career just on the interest you earn!

    Sorry, but I still say the protest is directed wrong to who is at fault. Not WS, the govt and colleges. We own GM, Amtrack, regulate banks, SS, why not step in for colleges? Why do we have this outcry about our education system, when taxpayers are paying state taxes to colleges that have a BN in endowment, and their kids school requires parents to donate paper? PLEASE explain to me why, because I can't get it...unless your only defense is that parents don't understand that UVA, a school that gets funded by VA residents has a BN in endowments. If so, than is it the OWS 20 something at fault, or the parent who didn't fight the system and force the state to change?

    OBTW...I graduated with a dual major, and a minor in 3.5 yrs, back in 87. I took 15K in loans to attend a private college, which Bullet had to pay back over 10 yrs. The avg college grad has @25K. Pretty sure, 15K 25 yrs ago costs more than 25K now. My starting salary was 28K.

    Just saying I did not have a silver spoon either. I took loans too. I however, will call a spade a spade. I have done enough tours, enough application fees, enough BS to say we are in this because colleges are no longer about education, but more about the newest, biggest, bestest Dorm, FB, BB, Library. It is a flipping DOG AND PONY SHOW. They are taking you to the best dorm. They are taking you to selected classrooms. They are taking you to the best of the best. They are selling a product to the prospective student (the school). Cost is not part of the equation when you go through this, happiness and college match for the child is the big factor.

    Not saying right or wrong for those parents. I am saying very few of us in this world would tell our child NO if they could get loans. The class of 2009 (college) never expected in 05 (unemployment was @5%) that they wouldn't get a job. They did not see the loan as the risk that people of 09 HS grads view it. HINDSIGHT IS 20/20

    Finally, please stop the 80K comment. These kids can only get FAFSA without credit rating pulls. That equals 26K.

    If they go for 80K they go private.

    From Wells Fargo website, one of the biggest banks for student loans:
    If that kid took 80K the folks signed on to it, the parents are at fault too!

    Like you said pencil pushing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  17. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Yes and we are paying for the product with borrowed money!

    The company I work for hires people when we have work for them to do not because we have money in the bank. That is some of what I don't think OWS gets. Do I think many execs/CEO's are paid stupid amounts of money? Yes but that is not why you are not being hired.

    I don't think I got screwed. If I did it was because I bought what they were selling. That said, the cost of an education was more reasonable 25 years ago.

    The $80K came from an earlier post. I do know people that owe that magnitude on student loans that have jobs that pay ~$40K. Sorry but it doesn't pencil out and they say they should have went to a less expensive school. Very expensive lesson in economics.
     
  18. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Exactly!
     
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I agree.

    I believe many have entitlement issues.

    Seriously, if my kid, that didn't have a job told us they were going to live in a tent to protest. I would say have a ball! OBTW, tomorrow I will be calling the bank to remove me as your co-signor, and the cell phone company to cut off your phone line. We did not buy cars for our kids, but we pay their insurance. I would say don't take the car because I am removing you off our policy. I would be that beeeaaaccch. If they go, fine I can do it without your help, I will support them, but to me I think as others have stated they have a "nice" life because of their parents...honestly NYers know it is flipping cold in Nov...it is all about buying time.

    Seriously, there would be words with our kids. Bullet and I would remind them that the reason they don't have student loans is due to the stock market and us investing in it. That we own our home because before any of them were born we invested in mutual funds. Now, if they still feel WS is wrong and they want to fight them, so be it, it is their life.

    Packer you and I are about the same age, and what I find ironic is your statement defended my premise.
    You just acknowledged that the cost of college is not as reasonable as it was a generation ago. You implied that they have a hand in the financial burden our children are feeling.

    Point being? Do you believe that the kid and their parents don't hold the same position?

    I am guessing you graduated college in 86-88 yrs. Those were good yrs, 6.something unemployment. March 83 when you were either graduating HS or freshman in college it was 10% +/-

    You took loans, you rolled the dice, and fortunately for you it worked out, but you and your parents didn't know. You bought what the college sold, and hoped.

    How is that different from kids now? Parents buy what the school sells, and take loans...just like you and I did.

    I am not a math whiz, but I am guessing that if I handed over my loan info, including rates, that 15K would be close to 60/70K in today's money on a good day, because my GSL was activated in July 87, I am assuming it was on the 8/9% rate, and not the 4.something offered now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  20. Packer

    Packer Member

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    That is because we agree on more than we disagree on.

    I think with the cost of education it is tough for kids today. Education has become over priced because we are willing to spend money we don't have to pay for it. I don't know how you roll this thing back without somebody getting hurt but the cost is out of line. I just can't put all of the blame on colleges and "Wall Street".

    I graduated from an in-state school with about $2500 in loans in 1990. I took a little longer to graduate and worked my butt off to pay for it. With the changes in wages and the changes in college costs if I were to do the same thing today it would take me a lot longer to graduate.
     

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