West Point Cheating Scandal

[UHBlackhawk]

I have unfortunately lost respect for LT Gen Williams and WP in general. If the "Honor Code" specifies a Cadet will neither lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do, that implies no leeway. I am getting a little tired of hearing that discipline has been replaced by "course work monitored closely by a "developmental coach"" is a move towards not offending these young people or their parents, NOT developing leaders. Each of these Cadets knew going in that they would be held to a higher standard than college students and yet they seemed to feel that it was OK this once. When we put other soldiers and sailors at risk by having their leaders do things that the soldiers or sailors would get "crucified" over by this same person, there is much irony there.

I truly believe either you have standards or you don't and when "political correctness" takes over for leadership and honesty "Houston we have a problem"! We have sons in different programs, and if either one resorted to cheating, stealing, or lying the school likely would not have to expel them, they would be removed. IMHO there is no position or room for leaders that can't be trusted. I am sorry in advance if I offend anyone, it is not meant as such, only my opinion and memories of service and what it meant to be respected, honest, and forthright!

I’m confused. What did General Williams specifically do that was contrary to the current honor code? The USA Today article is rather vague and does not show the specific memo in its entirety. Don’t get me wrong. There may be issues. But as with most USA Today articles it’s weak on substance. I would prefer to see more information before making judgements.

 

[Impulsive]

I’m confused. What did General Williams specifically do that was contrary to the current honor code? The USA Today article is rather vague and does not show the specific memo in its entirety. Don’t get me wrong. There may be issues. But as with most USA Today articles it’s weak on substance. I would prefer to see more information before making judgements.

I will agree with you that news outlets or articles are NOT always accurate. I will hold out hope that this matter is handled in an appropriate manner at both USMA and USNA. To think that "political correctness" for whatever reason is the right thing at any military academy or program is scary. This is not about being nice to people or politically correct, it is about having leaders at all levels that the country and the services can count on to make sound decisions and correct choices, especially when in a position that could get others hurt.

My thoughts go to people I personally knew when I served who did the "wrong" thing and got either restricted with reduction in rank or separated. But if it turns out that most if not all of these young leaders have no idea what leadership means and what "to lead by example" is all about then heaven help us down the road. So I will hope we are not getting all the facts and that the leadership becomes leaders and the core values of being a leader are brought to the forefront and things are resolved in a manner fitting of a United States Military Academy.

General Williams in responding to the "AOG" seems to indicate that maybe the core values and holding people responsible are not the way to handle "Honor" matters anymore, but rather "Commissions" or other outside views are more in line with the times. That may work fine in business or high school but I just personally think there is not much room for future leaders to not be held responsible because some group feels it isn't right. I am just saying I have lost respect for the leadership and institutions if nothing is done to prevent this from happening again. We will wait and see what plays out and hopefully it keeps the core values of our military intact.

 

[UHBlackhawk]

I will agree with you that news outlets or articles are NOT always accurate. I will hold out hope that this matter is handled in an appropriate manner at both USMA and USNA. To think that "political correctness" for whatever reason is the right thing at any military academy of program is scary. This is not about being nice to people or politically correct, it is about having leaders at all levels that the country and the services can count on to make sound decisions and correct choices, especially when in a position that could get others hurt.

My thoughts go to people I personally knew when I served who did the "wrong" thing and got either restricted with reduction in rank or separated. But if it turns out that most if not all of these young leaders have no idea what leadership means and what "to lead by example" is all about then heaven help us down the road. So I will hope we are not getting all the facts and that the leadership becomes leaders and the core values of being a leader are brought to the forefront and things are resolved in a manner fitting of a United States Military Academy.

The thing is we don’t know that political correctness is involved in this decision. That is an assumption. The article is rather weak on facts. It gives some quotes from a memo but the context of those quotes is left up in the air. We assume the worst but without seeing the actual memo I’m loath to make any assumptions. I’m not saying questions shouldn’t be raised, just that we should hold off on mob justice.
The only issue I’ve seen raised in this incident isn’t the question of the punishment itself. The punishment seems to be consistent with current SA honor code policies. No favor seems to have been given with those actual punishments. Now what the policies should be is a totally different subject.
The question is the timing of those punishments, should they have been implemented sooner or later and was impropriety shown in the implementation of those punishments. Again, the article is rather weak on all the specifics.

 

[Devil Doc]

I agree with your point about calling an enlisted sailor/soldier/airman "some enlisted kid" in a dismissive tone, but I have to say I read the same kind of thing in your comment about an SA grad who fulfills their commitment and leaves the service as "low character." Plenty of SA grads fulfill their commitment and go on to be leaders of large scale companies, government agencies etc. I don't believe that makes them of "low character" maybe I'm reading your comment wrong, if so I apologize.

I never need apologies for anything but I don’t recall the post where I said a grad who fulfilled their commitment has low character. Can you please find it for me?

 

[FastGMan]

I never need apologies for anything but I don’t recall the post where I said a grad who fulfilled their commitment has low character. Can you please find it for me?

Like I said, reading it a second time I probably misinterpreted or read it too strictly, but what I was referring to was your comment: "Second lieutenants do not lead the world and the majority of WP grads, especially the low character ones, will be one and done. Five and dive."

 

[Devil Doc]

Like I said, reading it a second time I probably misinterpreted or read it too strictly, but what I was referring to was your comment: "Second lieutenants do not lead the world and the majority of WP grads, especially the low character ones, will be one and done. Five and dive."

Yeah you misinterpreted.

 

[MullenLE]

Walman888 - My comments were based on the Supe's 23 Oct statement...not the cheating scandal that has come to light. 101%, he knows more than any of us do regarding all the details. The point, was his statement and it's content...not what the cadets did or didn't do as a group and/or individuals...

Those that are disappointed with the Supe...are disappointed...that the bedrock has been altered. The honor code has transcended generations. There have been and will be violations in the future. But the basic foundation of the compass has been rocked by his comments regarding ...THE POLICY... ("...the policy "has resulted in an inequitable application of consequences and developmental opportunities for select groups of cadets."). The honor code is a woven principle into someones core...hence...core values. After hundreds of years, its now THE POLICY? That's a rhetorical question.

West Point is 0 and 2 here...The cheating itself...but more everlasting, was the Supe's statement and approach... sad!

 

[MullenLE]

And oh by the way...it's not even about LTG Williams, the Supe, the man, the total professional. It's about what he SAID... It's an affront to " I will not lie, cheat or steal or tolerate those that do" It's not amended or modified by ""has resulted in an inequitable application of consequences and developmental opportunities for select groups of cadets." That doesn't hack it in the foxhole or similar combat environments. The older folks here, know what I mean...No doubt, if LTG Williams ever sees this, he knows what I mean

 

[CaligulasHorse]

Here's a question I have: What was the correct course of action for a cadet who knew about cheating, but did not participate?
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that informing ("snitching") on another cadet is not the best/first course of action. Is this accurate? If it is, what should a cadet do in lieu of going straight to an authority? Especially in a virtual setting, this seems like a difficult position to be in.

 

[Walman888]

And oh by the way...it's not even about LTG Williams, the Supe, the man, the total professional. It's about what he SAID... It's an affront to " I will not lie, cheat or steal or tolerate those that do" It's not amended or modified by ""has resulted in an inequitable application of consequences and developmental opportunities for select groups of cadets." That doesn't hack it in the foxhole or similar combat environments. The older folks here, know what I mean...No doubt, if LTG Williams ever sees this, he knows what I mean

I understand your point. I do. I have spoken to our DD about this situation and I am aware of the opinions of several other Cadets in regards to punitive action. Most would support immediate separation. They believe that there is a double standard in play.

My feeling is that there were factors that motivated the Supe to say what he did. Obviously, his response is not one from the Old School. As he stated, he is taking ownership. It will take a good while to see if that is how it turns out.

 

[MullenLE]

Walman888 - Kind of agree. Consequences should and are based on the individual circumstances. Undoubtedly, there were factors that motivated the Supe...but acknowledged by all...his a brilliant combat leader...beyond reproach. Obviously, he's taking ownership. The 59 predecessors didn't say that; wouldn't have thought of saying it; but LTG Williams DID say it. It was that assault of our current crumbling societal mores...that allowed the door to be opened...and now those huge doors have been opened.

 

[Heatherg21]

Here's a question I have: What was the correct course of action for a cadet who knew about cheating, but did not participate?
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that informing ("snitching") on another cadet is not the best/first course of action. Is this accurate? If it is, what should a cadet do in lieu of going straight to an authority? Especially in a virtual setting, this seems like a difficult position to be in.

As I understand it from our plebe at USNA, the proper course of action is to let the offender know that they have violated the honor code and encourage them to come clean. That they take action to report their transgression. If after that, they do not do so, then it is up to the observer to report up the proper chain of command.
This would be difficult in any situation. Whether virtual or otherwise.
My opinion for the cost of one cent is that wrong is wrong. Virtual or otherwise. 10 months in or otherwise. I am bothered by the remarks about this being primarily first year cadets and only ten months into training. As others have echoed, they applied and committed knowing what was expected in terms of honor and code. It is the one thing they were expected to recite in interviews and write about in essays. it is what their evaluators remarked about in letters of recommendation.
There is much we do not know. I grant that. But the language from leadership is not encouraging. Had I written a press release it would not have come across as ambiguous and apologetic. With excuses being read between the lines.
Ownership means just that. Own it. Do not speak it away or downplay the event.

Something along the lines of “while the investigations are ongoing and we cannot remark on said investigations we can state that integrity above all else is prized. That we can rely on the Cadet to our right or to our left to do the proper thing when no one is watching is paramount to our mission. These values we hold fast. We will not compromise these ideals.”
But I’m just a civilian with an opinion worth the price paid for it.

 

[Army Al]

I'm glad the Superintendent took ownership of this episode of cooperate and graduate. Of course he will not be replaced and will retire as a 3 star. This was more than likely his last assignment anyway.

Regarding the football players, they will make amends for their misdeeds and for a very few, possibly even sign a NFL contract after graduation.

These young cadets are smart and see how the GAME is played in and outside the academy. The Army has a tremendous problem in keeping the brightest cadets as career soldiers for the last several DECADES.

That's an issue for another day.

 

[MullenLE]

The Superintendent should not be replaced. He like his 59 predecessors, have done great things and led well! The cancel culture is a cancer. He is a great leader!

That said, that toothpaste is out of the tube. Not that there's a plan to, but a retraction of what he said, and the less skilled CoS said, would only serve to exacerbate the situation. What's done is done.

Similarly, throughout this whole COVID19 national level exercise, it would have been so much more clear had Dr Fauci EMPHASIZED. "It's my job to provide the public health perspective and that's what I've done. POTUS has to take that perspective as a data point and then make decisions for the country, as the nation's Chief Executive Officer."

POTUS and the nation would have been better served, if he would have focused on the same point vs getting involved in spats and punching down. "I highly respect the opinions of Dr Fauci; the VP; the rest of the Task Force; and many other scientists, economists, leaders, etc. But, at the end of the day, my mission, TO the nation that elected me, is to to do what I think is best for the country across the entire spectrum of challenges...and that's what I'm doing."

 

[jl123]

The cancel culture is a cancer.

Ditto 1,000 times. Our society has lost the ability to tolerate dissent.

Consider the possibility that the Supe, like all military leaders, may be implementing a policy with which he may or may not agree.

Agree with the actions or not, the Supe is acting in a thoughtful, professional manner. I disagree with the policy, but respect and trust the Supe.

 

[1842]

And now you know why the LTG Williams allowed the cheaters to stay.... football > honor​

​

West Point cheating scandal involved mostly athletes, including football players on Liberty Bowl team​

WASHINGTON – The majority of the cadets involved in the worst academic cheating scandal at West Point in 45 years are athletes, including 24 members of the football team that is scheduled to play in a bowl game on Thursday, according to West Point officials.

In all, 55 of the 73 cadets accused of cheating on a calculus final exam in May are athletes, including 17 who remain on the football team, according to figures released to USA TODAY by West Point.

A few have played in football games this season after having been accused of cheating. Some of those players could dress and play in the Liberty Bowl on Thursday, according to Army Lt. Col. Christopher Ophardt, a West Point spokesman.

West Point's superintendent Lt. Gen. Darryl Williams changed the rules so they could play football despite the serious violations of the honor code

They're allowed to play because West Point's superintendent in October suspended a policy that limited or prevented cadets found in violation of the academy's honor code from representing the academy in public, including athletes at sports events.

Lt. Gen. Darryl Williams, the superintendent, in an Oct. 23 memo, wrote to the faculty that the policy "has resulted in an inequitable application of consequences and developmental opportunities for select groups of cadets." USA TODAY obtained a copy of the memo.

West Point cheating scandal involved mostly athletes, including football players on Liberty Bowl team

West Point football players are involved in the academy's worst cheating scandal in more than 40 years. Army plays in the Liberty Bowl Thursday.

www.usatoday.com

 

[NJROTC-CC]

West Point cheating scandal involved mostly athletes, including football players on Liberty Bowl team​

West Point's superintendent Lt. Gen. Darryl Williams changed the rules so they could play football despite the serious violations of the honor code

West Point cheating scandal involved mostly athletes, including football players on Liberty Bowl team

West Point football players are involved in the academy's worst cheating scandal in more than 40 years. Army plays in the Liberty Bowl Thursday.

www.usatoday.com

Sports are very important to the service academies and I TOTALLY get that and support that. However, IMHO there is ZERO advantage to our national defense of having our service academies being Division 1 versus Division 3 in sports. Division 1 only forces the academies to lower their overall standards without any benefit. The service academy teams are all weak Division 1 teams anyway. We would still have Army//Navy if both were Division 3. The Coast Guard agrees. O.K., go ahead and flame me.

 

[A1Janitor]

Division 1 only forces the academies to lower their overall standards without any benefit.

That’s a very bold statement. I’d be interested in your supporting proof.

 

[NJROTC-CC]

That’s a very bold statement. I’d be interested in your supporting proof.

 

[NJROTC-CC]

Do you honestly believe that the average math SAT scores (if not academic credentials overall) of the football team is not SIGNIFICANTLY lower than the average? I would be interested in seeing YOUR supporting proof that I am wrong. Of course, neither of us have access to the statistics.

It seems pretty obvious that the football players are struggling academically and are tempted to cheat. I certainly don’t believe that football players have any less integrity than the general student population.