West Point sued over affirmative action admissions

[Kierkegaard]

Like Hawaii and New Mexico? Both are pretty small population wise (2 and 3 congressional districts) and seem to be pretty minority-heavy.

Very true—I had the midwest in mind. I’m also not convinced it’s a problem, but it is something that sometimes gets raised when people talk about the system.

 

[A1Janitor]

Very true—I had the midwest in mind. I’m also not convinced it’s a problem, but it is something that sometimes gets raised when people talk about the system.

I wonder what the percentage of minorities are appointed from a state like Hawaii.

I wonder what a study done by an independent statistician would reveal.

Maybe in reality there isn’t “racism” - so the word systemic rears its head.

 

[unkown1961]

Like Hawaii and New Mexico? Both are pretty small population wise (2 and 3 congressional districts) and seem to be pretty minority-heavy.

Well that’s 2 out of the top 20.

 

[Wahoo Fan]

If race is not a factor for admission, then why do they ask that question on the application?

 

[A1Janitor]

If race is not a factor for admission, then why do they ask that question on the application?

Much like the census - to know the breakdown of the applicants. To determine where recruiting efforts need to focus on?

 

[jbm2m]

If race is not a factor for admission, then why do they ask that question on the application?

I don’t know how it plays into actual decisions but, at least at West Point, it has potential to provide recruiting resources. Not being familiar with the SA application process, and being aware of certain stereotypes, my DD’s outreach officer has proactively taken the time to speak with her answer questions, and has worked to build a relationship with her over the last few months. Also has been quickly available to respond to emails (almost always within 24 hours, even on weekends). I can say pretty confidently that this approach is a large part of why, if she ultimately decides to attend an SA, West Point is the leader in the club house, despite our proximity to USNA. She already feels she has a connection because of these relationships. For context, she’s towards the top of her class, 10 APs, above the middle 50% in testing, multi-sport varsity letter winner (and state champ in her team sport) and has regional and national-level involvement in extracurricular/leadership. The standards of qualifying haven’t been lessened or bent for her due to her race, but West Point has gone out of its way to let her (and us as parents) know they want her there.

 

[USMAZoo98]

You are really clueless to think there is not affirmative action used at the service academies and throughout the military. I know former USNA Admissions Officers who openly admit they use preferential treatment for minorities and its even more egregious when it comes to admitting underqualified athletes.

Just so we are clear, I did not say that there is no affirmative action at West Point or any other military academy. I did suggest that the idea that it is the basis for filling classes is flawed. Affirmative action is not the overriding principal that West Point uses to make appointments. I get to see a little bit behind the curtain as part of the Field Force. I see candidates sometimes who receive appointments that make me wonder "how." But that means that the candidate was already deemed 3Q and received a nomination, which renders your "underqualified" point irrelevant. Of course, it is always easy to use the athletes as the basis for this "underqualified" argument. Happy that you know "former Admissions officers." I know current "admissions officers." All that is to say, I think I have a better picture on the current admissions process at West Point than you do.

 

[A1Janitor]

Just so we are clear, I did not say that there is no affirmative action at West Point or any other military academy. I did suggest that the idea that it is the basis for filling classes is flawed. Affirmative action is not the overriding principal that West Point uses to make appointments. I get to see a little bit behind the curtain as part of the Field Force. I see candidates sometimes who receive appointments that make me wonder "how." But that means that the candidate was already deemed 3Q and received a nomination, which renders your "underqualified" point irrelevant. Of course, it is always easy to use the athletes as the basis for this "underqualified" argument. Happy that you know "former Admissions officers." I know current "admissions officers." All that is to say, I think I have a better picture on the current admissions process at West Point than you do.

And why a court should make a decision based on evidence. Whichever way it goes.

 

[USMAZoo98]

And why a court should make a decision based on evidence. Whichever way it goes.

Yeah, that point seems inevitable anyway. The sad part is that any court decision will more than likely muck up a process that doesn't really need fixing (at least not in this way). There are certainly things in the process that I as a grad and a member of the Field Force wish would be addressed, but the issue covered in this lawsuit is not any of those things.

 

[mike1979]

Just so we are clear, I did not say that there is no affirmative action at West Point or any other military academy. I did suggest that the idea that it is the basis for filling classes is flawed. Affirmative action is not the overriding principal that West Point uses to make appointments. I get to see a little bit behind the curtain as part of the Field Force. I see candidates sometimes who receive appointments that make me wonder "how." But that means that the candidate was already deemed 3Q and received a nomination, which renders your "underqualified" point irrelevant. Of course, it is always easy to use the athletes as the basis for this "underqualified" argument. Happy that you know "former Admissions officers." I know current "admissions officers." All that is to say, I think I have a better picture on the current admissions process at West Point than you do.

Last week there was a Facebook Live call hosted by Westpoint Admissions team. Where in the first minute of the call it was mentioned that admissions have goal to recruit “talent and diversity”. When there is a notion of the goal being discussed there would be means to meet it.

 

[A1Janitor]

Yeah, that point seems inevitable anyway. The sad part is that any court decision will more than likely muck up a process that doesn't really need fixing (at least not in this way). There are certainly things in the process that I as a grad and a member of the Field Force wish would be addressed, but the issue covered in this lawsuit is not any of those things.

This isn’t about improvements grads or members of a field force want. And if a court finds there is unconstitutional discrimination, mucking up a process that alumni don’t think should be fixed is immaterial.

 

[usnabgo08]

It will be interesting to see what happens. When you look at the purpose of a (military) service academy it is to commission officers into the military and not to just issue a degree. Therefore, I have to believe the function will be looked at a little differently (i.e. not just an academic institution), especially given that courts typically give wide deference to the military and how it operates. Furthermore, a service academy is not the only opportunity to serve in the military nor is it the only officer commissioning opportunity.

 

[OldRetSWO]

Last week there was a Facebook Live call hosted by Westpoint Admissions team. Where in the first minute of the call it was mentioned that admissions have goal to recruit “talent and diversity”. When there is a notion of the goal being discussed there would be means to meet it.

Key (and hopefully operative) word here is RECRUIT.
Recruit as in beating the bushes to try to increase the number of QUALIFIED diverse candidates to APPLY to the Service Academies.
This is the idea that raising awareness of the magnitude of the opportunity might increase the numbers that apply. Many on this
site report that few in their community seem to know about the academies. One way to increase minority representation would
be to target those communities to try to raise their awareness with the expectation that the numbers of qualified community
members applying would increase.

 

[mike1979]

Key (and hopefully operative) word here is RECRUIT.
Recruit as in beating the bushes to try to increase the number of QUALIFIED diverse candidates to APPLY to the Service Academies.
This is the idea that raising awareness of the magnitude of the opportunity might increase the numbers that apply. Many on this
site report that few in their community seem to know about the academies. One way to increase minority representation would
be to target those communities to try to raise their awareness with the expectation that the numbers of qualified community
members applying would increase.

What is the benefit of encouraging candidates from various backgrounds to apply when vast majority of them won’t be admitted? It is akin to raising someone hopes to the level where they spend substantial amount of time on filling the applications to just have those dreams crushed since only so many applicants can be admitted. At the end the only beneficiaries of that process are the SA that can state with confidence that over 10k applications were received for the class of 1200 and our admissions rate hovers around 5-10%, which makes us super competitive.

 

[jbm2m]

What is the benefit of encouraging candidates from various backgrounds to apply when vast majority of them won’t be admitted? It is akin to raising someone hopes to the level where they spend substantial amount of time on filling the applications to just have those dreams crushed since only so many applicants can be admitted. At the end the only beneficiaries of that process are the SA that can state with confidence that over 10k applications were received for the class of 1200 and our admissions rate hovers around 5-10%, which makes us super competitive.

If you increase and diversify your applicant pool, you’re more likely to get more qualified applicants from a greater diversity of segments - whether that in terms of race, geography, etc. If those applicants display greatness in other areas but there questions about academics, they can go to USMAPS for a year.

 

[A1Janitor]

Key (and hopefully operative) word here is RECRUIT.
Recruit as in beating the bushes to try to increase the number of QUALIFIED diverse candidates to APPLY to the Service Academies.
This is the idea that raising awareness of the magnitude of the opportunity might increase the numbers that apply. Many on this
site report that few in their community seem to know about the academies. One way to increase minority representation would
be to target those communities to try to raise their awareness with the expectation that the numbers of qualified community
members applying would increase.

And nobody should have a problem with that.

Increasing awareness is good. Improving inner city schools to develop more qualified candidates would also be good.

Selecting less qualified candidates because of their skin color or other diversity needs is what needs to fixed (assuming the courts think there is a constitutional question to how it’s currently done - which I don’t think the court will find).

 

[mike1979]

If you increase and diversify your applicant pool, you’re more likely to get more qualified applicants from a greater diversity of segments - whether that in terms of race, geography, etc. If those applicants display greatness in other areas but there questions about academics, they can go to USMAPS for a year.

And the only way to achieve that is to keep admissions rate below 10 percent?

 

[jbm2m]

And the only way to achieve that is to keep admissions rate below 10 percent?

They have to assume attrition. That 10k number/approximation is based on the number of people who open applications. The majority won’t finish. Others won’t qualify. Recruiting more applicants give them the best chance to have a greater pool of competitive students, in spite of applicant attrition. If folks are committed to service, there are other avenues to commissioning.

 

[OldRetSWO]

What is the benefit of encouraging candidates from various backgrounds to apply when vast majority of them won’t be admitted? It is akin to raising someone hopes to the level where they spend substantial amount of time on filling the applications to just have those dreams crushed since only so many applicants can be admitted. At the end the only beneficiaries of that process are the SA that can state with confidence that over 10k applications were received for the class of 1200 and our admissions rate hovers around 5-10%, which makes us super competitive.

The benefit is that the Service Academies gain a "shot" at more outstanding candidates who otherwise would not have known of the opportunity.
From almost the earliest founding of our academies, the NATION chose to try to get some geographic diversity which is one of the reasons for the Congressional nomination system. It would be fabulous if somehow the Academies could know in advance which 1200 or so people they wanted and ONLY send them an immediate LOA so that no other potential applicants would get their feelings hurt by being rejected. Of course there would be constant loud cries of objection as to why some were picked and others were not which is shockingly similar to what we hear under this system where applicants SELF-SELECT to APPLY to the academies.
In my and many other people's opinions, the opportunity is incredible and it would be nice if it "sold itself" but it turns out that if we did not "awareness raising", we might have a much smaller and less diverse applicant base and leave many VERY qualified folks who never hear or consider the SAs to go to "Whatsamatta U" or other institution. From my personal experience of over three decades in uniform, the Navy and nation would not be well served by keeping our applicant base low. Clearly your vast experience is different so we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[severn]

... so this is another angle from an admissions outsider.

I think a West Point grad is the top 1 % of that age group in the country regardless of time period.

Many, many moons ago, a brand new 2LT reported to my company who's a WP grad and designated the "goat" in his graduating class.
(Goat: last-ranked graduate including LTC George Custer {Little Big Horn} and MG Pickett {Pickett's Charge})
My initial thoughts were if this young officer got through four years of Calculus and Ranger qualified, that's good enough for me. Eventually he was my "go to" platoon leader during critical mission tasks.