When to do the following?

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by soccmomer, Dec 27, 2013.

  1. soccmomer

    soccmomer Member

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    DS accepted his 4 yr AROTC scholarship. However, he has not yet sent his deposit to the school indicating he will attend. He is currently waiting to hear whether or not he gets accepted to USMA (at least 2Q with a nom at this point). So....when should he do the following:
    1. Send in his deposit to the school.
    2. Notify the ROTC program at the school that he accepted the scholarship.
    3. IF he gets accepted to USMA AND decides on that option, when should he notify the school that he is declining their acceptance?
    4. And when should he notify Cadet Command that he is giving up the scholarship?

    I know there are a lot of what-ifs here, but while he is on winter break....he has time to think, write letters, etc! And unfortunately, if accepted to USMA....this will be another agonizing decision, not as cut and dry as one would expect!
     
  2. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    see answers above
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
  3. soccmomer

    soccmomer Member

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    Thanks Dunninia! The only part I was not quite sure of is I think someplace in the scholarship papers it says something about notifying them if you accept an appointment to a Service Academy. However, I have read threads on here someplace that also indicate to hold onto it through Beast.
    Who at the ROTC unit should he notify - the ROO? PMS?
     
  4. VMI82

    VMI82 Room 131

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    I do think it is unethical

    There are those who would say that it is unethical to hold both options simultaneously. I disagree, because the number of AROTC scholarship cadets that won't show up on the first day of classes at the civilian university is built into the system. Whatever that AROTC Scholarship Cadet no-show % is: 1%, 2%, 5%, or whatever, is already calculated into the yield %, and therefore Cadet Command's fiscal year operating budget

    As an Officer serving our Country Honor is core to your being.

    I cannot council starting off on the wrong foot by omission. To me - this is a breach of honor.

    Now, I can hear the chorus chiming in "but what if ..."

    This is simple folks: Honor is placing what is right and true above your own interests! Period.

    I believe Dunninia argues for a widely held perspective. I respectfully disagree. That perspective is all about expedience and self-interest.

    IF your DS is fortunate to be offered a cadetship at USMA I'd urge him to do the honorable thing by choosing which path he feels he can best serve his country with and then notifying the other of his decision.

    As for acceptance fees - that, in my mind, is meager compared to the total value of the opportunity he is being given and were it me I would consider it 'cost of doing business.'

    Final thought - the statement that the no show rate % is 'built in' is called cognitive dissonance. It is a rationalization of bad behavior because it is commonplace or 'built in.' We do not condone shoplifting - yet stores 'build in' that into their financials.

    In these stressful times for our military we need more leaders who place honor above self. I urge your DS to choose that path.
     
  5. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    VMI82: I understand your position.

    However, honor is a two way street. If the USMA would similarly honor their commitment to an Appointed cadet by committing to including said cadet who is temporarily medically DQ into the following year's Appointed class, then there would be no (medical) reason for holding both an Appointment and an AROTC scholarship simultaneously.

    The USMA has caused this ethical conflict by a policy of not honoring an Appointment from one year to the following year when the failure to matriculate is a temporary medical issue. You could argue that that action, or failure to act, by Admissions at USMA is unethical and a failure to honor three honorable commitments: that of the Appointed cadet who has rejected other possible sources of Commission, the congressional nominator, and the cadet's family. Does that resemble to you something like big, impersonal Government without honor?

    Is your position that the USMA Appointed cadet should not protect their alternate plan for Commission when the USMA's Appointment policy does not reciprocate? Or would you say that the cadet has no choice and that the USMA's policy should change, but until it does, some honorable Appointed cadets should lose both of their paths to commission? That this policy that fails to protect an Appointment to the following year produces acceptable collateral damage?

    I can see both sides. It is not a situation that lends itself to a singular, simple, honorable solution.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    VMI,

    I support holding onto the scholarship.

    The fact is just like colleges they have it built in that X% will not be utilized. The idea that if they throw it back in the pool someone else will get a scholarship IMPO is a fallacy.

    These kids earned the scholarship. They are answering honestly right now, that this is their plan A. SAs are known for mass mailing March.

    If come July, when they report to an SA, that money will be thrown back in the pot for the same class yr., and will be used for ICSP. Many HSSP are 3 yr. Where do you think the 3.5 yr scholarship funding comes from?
    ~~~ 3 yrs ago AFROTC had too many that took HSSP, and ICSP was cancelled. A yr later ICSP was back because the money was thrown back in the pot.

    Honor...I get. However, there is nothing dishonorable about accepting a scholarship, as plan B.
    ~~~ If so, than the military would not allow it!

    FYI,
    Our DS got an AFROTC scholarship in Dec. while being a candidate with 4 noms. He received admission from his dream college in Jan. and pulled his name from the AFA the 1st week of Feb. 1 month prior to the close out date for the AFA.
    ~ Hence, I get your position. He in your world did the honorable thing, However, he knew without a doubt that he wanted his dream college over the AFA. Had it been reversed, I would have supported him.
     
  7. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I had always read that a cadet that starts Beast is required to decline any scholarship offers before they start Beast, making it a moot point.

    I believe there is now a part of the paperwork that does require a scholarship awardee to notify CC if they accept an appointment to WP. Not sure what CC does at that point. If they ask, just make sure your son is upfront and honest about it and things will play out as they should.

    I agree that he should hold onto the scholarship until he makes a final decision about WP.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
  8. soccmomer

    soccmomer Member

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    OK, this is what the scholarship papers say:
    "INELIGIBILITY
    a. Service Academy and Service Academy Preparatory School.
    Students currently attending United States Military Academy Preparatory School, who accept an appointment to the United States Military Academy, or students who report in to the United States Military Academy, forfeit their ROTC scholarship eligibility."

    So I guess it comes down to: does reporting in mean: BEAST or first day of classes?
     
  9. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I m pretty sure that it means when the cadet starts Beast. You would need to confirm this with CC or WP.
     
  10. ABF

    ABF Member

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    I have to agree with VMI. It's "Duty, Honor, Country". You have an obligation to something more than self. Dance with the one that took you to the dance. The right thing is the more difficult thing here.
     
  11. soccmomer

    soccmomer Member

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    I think the scholarship papers spell it out - no need to decline the scholarship until the student reports to WP. "IF" DS should happen to receive an appointment, we will investigate exactly what "report in" means.
    Until then - who should he notify of his scholarship acceptance at his scholarship college - ROO or PMS?
     
  12. Not too sharp

    Not too sharp New Member

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    I definitely support holding onto the scholarship. If the applicant is a scholarship recipient AND (subsequently) a SA appointment, then they have paid their dues in my book.
    It's unfortunate that the SAs do not a better option in place, but in reality any good strategist employs a contingency plan or exit strategy. I don't view this as un-honorable at all. Career military personnel have to make these decisions quite often (transfers, laterals, etc.).
    Wouldn't the 4 year scholarship that a cadet forfeits upon starting Beast just morph into a 3.5 scholarship for the next deserving applicant?
     
  13. VMI82

    VMI82 Room 131

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    suggested reading

    +1 ABF

    folks, I'll offer a parable: "Once an Eagle" by Anton Meyer

    there are many in the service who slice things fine, all according to the rules, but fine none the less.

    There are men and women in our services - the best example that comes to mind is Gen. Mattis, who's back of mind question always is "What is the honorable thing to do here?"

    It may be okay by the rules, it may be what most people do - but it is not what I would council my son or daughter. I would discourage them from taking that path because it is affecting someone else out there.

    You will never know the person who does not get the 4 year ROTC scholarship because your son/daughter is holding onto it as they ride into a Service Academy. You tell yourself that that person will be okay, no harm, no foul.

    But that is a story you tell yourself to feel okay about double-dipping, in my opinion, to protect your ride.

    I was taught, as a Jr Marine Officer that I sleep last, eat last, and NEVER took from my men.

    Someone, a real person, with real hopes and aspirations will be affected because you ride both scholarships to make sure YOUR best interest is protected.

    Cut out a photo of a young man or woman at large and paste it on your mirror. Look at that photo by your reflected image and ask "Am I okay with you not getting to go to college because I was selfish and kept my ROTC AND SA appt?"

    If that is how you begin your career in the service I believe it is a slippery slope to thinking RHIP (rank has its privleges).

    If you are not willing to take the 'risk' of slip/fall in Beast and losing out on 4 year ride - what fear will hold you back when ordering men & women into harms way? Will you be risk adverse then too?

    The very endeavor, joining the Military, is fraught with risk. Face the risk, pick a lane, and live with the consequences with honor.

    Be the person people will follow into hell because you care more about 'team' than self. Become the next Mattis.

    "Once an Eagle" - a fictional account, illustrates this to the 'T'
     
  14. soccmomer

    soccmomer Member

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    I understand what you are saying, however, WP offers and the deadline to accept will not happen until after the last AROTC board meets. Therefore, giving up the scholarship right then will not allow another student to be assigned the scholarship in time for school in the fall.
    I really did not intend for this thread to become one on the morals of hanging onto the scholarship until the last minute....I was just trying to find out the timing of who to notify and when. If I had re-read the scholarship papers before asking that part of my question, I guess I would have found my answer - my mistake.
     
  15. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    Hi soccmomer,
    don't mind the differing opinion of the posters, this forum gets a bit hairy at times, you will get thick skin or get used to it...no worries... Everyone has different opinions, its all good, you wouldn't want everyone to agree at all times, would you? what fun would that be??

    (personally Im going with Duninlla and Pima on this one...my son this yr did not apply to a S.A. but last year's son and we also waited....)
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
  16. soccmomer

    soccmomer Member

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    Nope - people can disagree all they want - it doesn't really bother me when people state their opinions, but I was sort of looking for facts here - like dates and the specifics of who to contact.
     
  17. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    soccermom,

    As soon as they take the oath on I Day (reporting in) the scholarship is considered null and void.

    It is your family, and your choice on whether to keep it or throw it back in the pool. This is a topic many people have clear cut opinions on regarding what one should do in this scenario.

    My opinion is this is a family decision, it is not for anyone to condone or condemn the decision. The Army has made this ruling, and if we are talking about honor/duty, they have decided it is not dishonorable to hold onto it. If they thought it was they would not have this loophole clearly written in their regs.
    ----The reason I believe this is a family decision is due to the fact that nobody here knows your child like you do. Nobody here knows your financial situation.
    - Many kids get injured in the spring, many have 2nd thoughts prior to leaving for I Day out of fear of the unknown. Relinquishing that scholarship may mean their child could not afford to attend any college, but only their local CC, and now the next yr will be even more stressful, especially for the child that breaks their leg tripping off the school bus on the last day of school---2 weeks prior to IDay. They now will have nowhere to go, but also need to go through the medical clearance process again.
    -----Yes, for those that think it is dishonorable, there are parents that can't come up with 40K for their child's back up dream college, yet they can afford to lose the 500 bucks deposit for holding the school slot. IS colleges can cost 25K a yr., it is not our right to place guilt into the equation when we don't know their financial situation. Should we guilt them without knowing maybe Dad just lost his job and they are surviving on their savings? Should we guilt them when they as parents have 3 kids in college and told their kids if you get a scholarship you can go to the dream college, but otherwise you are going in state? Who are we to judge if their priority is to assist in getting their child's dream using their financial boundaries set forth in their home as a family? Creating guilt for being a parent assisting their child's ultimate goal is not right IMPO.

    I would agree with the honor situation if they were using some small loophole that someone tells someone on how to do it, but this is a flat out reg. with guidance on how it will work.

    Not to take this off topic, but I see this line of honor/duty on the same line of scholarship/appointees going this route for a free education... 5 and dive for SA or 4 and door for ROTC. There are many that enter knowing this is their long term goal. Should we guilt them too because many that want to make the military a career didn't get the option because of the divers? IMPO, NO. Again, the military has built this into their system. They recipients earned it fair and square. The door will not shut for yrs. They can apply for an ICSP, or the SA again next yr.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
  18. -Bull-

    -Bull- Member

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    While I can agree that keeping the scholarship while accepting an SA appointment creates a decision point that each young man or woman must decide upon which decision they think is right, I disagree with some of the rest. To add, each young man or woman must decide which path is right based upon their own morality. Morality, to remain strong, must be anchored to something (God, Spaghetti Monster, People's Magazine etc.), your morality cannot be created and maintained by another being. It is our own, so what each person views as right is their own, and may or may not necessarily jive with society's view on "right", though a different point, this is where our criminal justice system derives from.

    Personally, it doesn't bother me whether or not they keep an ROTC scholarship while accepting an SA appointment. Partially, because I'm a senior and already have a scholarship, but more importantly, the choice is ultimately up to them, I cannot make that choice for them, nor will I. I would hope that they make a decision based upon what they feel is right, whatever that choice may be. Sound Judgement, one of the army's 17 leadership dimensions they'll soon be evaluated on.

    No offense, but I think the cutting a picture out and putting it on your mirror is just silly. If a young man or woman is using a scholarship as the primary reason on deciding whether or not to become a US Army Officer, is this really the type of person we want leading soldiers? Someone who will "throw a fit" (figuratively, not literally, bear with me here) and give up a dream because they didn't get picked for free school is not someone I necessarily want to my left or right flank. I understand some people need the scholarship to attend the school of their choice (I say this because there are always options, even at a CC working up to a 4 year), but it comes down to how bad does a person want it? Are they willing to fight, claw, and encounter pain to get what they want? In this case a commission. What we fail to consider is that the majority of these young men and women that don't receive a scholarship through the national process end up matriculating to a college and enrolling in ROTC, IF their original goal was to become an officer. A large number of these cadets end up receiving in-school/on-campus (whatever they're called today) scholarships. This is why these on campus scholarships exist, they're used to balance out fiscal year mission sets.

    These scholarship recipients don't need to tape anything to their mirror except a picture of a US flag, the constitution and a pair of gold bars. They've earned their scholarship and they've earned an appointment. The choice from there is their's, and their's alone, regardless of how much we want to legislate morality through an internet forum.

    I say all of this of my own opinion, admitting that if I received a scholarship and accepted an appointment, I would immediately notify ROTC of my decision. But this would be my decision alone, based upon whatever reasons I have, which is why I disagree with the above view.
     
  19. ca2midwestmom

    ca2midwestmom Member

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    dunninla -- out of curiousity, what does the "quick medical exam" at BEAST entail? Is it a basic physical (bp, blood drawn, etc) or something more invasive?
     
  20. hutchdweller

    hutchdweller Member

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    So much to consider!

    Wow, I didn't realize this was such a hot topic! When DD first began to look at schools and learn about AROTC, a PMS at a school she did not end up applying to told her very definitively that if one is fortunate enough to receive both a scholarship and an appointment, she should hold onto the scholarship until the first day of classes at the academy. I accepted at face value that's just how it is done and that the in-school scholarships are derived (at least in part) from the $ of those whose chose the academy instead. It never occurred to me that it was a sneaky loophole, double-dipping or questionable in any way, or that some might deem it as such, or that it could potentially deprive another deserving student. I am quite stunned and will be pondering this question. In our case, DD was offered her scholarship on the first board, before her college applications were even complete. Even so, she had to make an essentially blind choice of which school to accept. Talk about feeling punished for having gotten done early! The PMS at the school that she chose contacted her and strongly encouraged her to apply ED, which she still had time to do. She very honestly explained that she was also applying to USMA and felt that she needed to leave that option open for the time being. Since then, she rec'd her nominations and her appointment to USMA, but she STILL does not know if she has been accepted to ANY of the colleges to which she applied, including the one at which she has accepted the ROTC scholarship (not to mention the 2 she turned down, but still applied to). None of this seems very clear cut to me. :confused:
     

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