Bullying or hazing or what?

Welcome old member, first post. I am glad the first year went well.

Not sure what the post title means.
 
What happened a few days ago was, several cadets had grooming issues (shaving), but only my son got picked by the cadre who is an MSG (someone educate an ignorant mother what MSG means please). This MSG asked my son to repeat multiple times, loud, what he did wrong in front the whole group. He even said something like “I don’t know why you’re in the Army.” To me, this is very humiliating, insulting, and offensive. Something that had never happened to my son before.

The issue is, this MSG ONLY picked my son, but no one else, why? If this is the way he trains the cadets, he should have done the same to all the cadets with grooming issues, but he didn’t. He only singled out one person.

My son was totally shocked and intimated as he had never experienced this. I heard him weeping on the phone, and the next thing I did was, I booked the next flight to meet him at school. My son would probably stop calling me mom if I were to get in touch with his PMS about this. He wants to deal with this all by himself. But after consulting with a retired brigadier general from the Air Force, I’m worried this might be some type of hazing or bullying.

Need advice on what should be done.
 
First, let your son handle it.

Second, while you could be right, you don't know it's bullying. He may have used your son as an example to educate the other violators.

My DS was "educated" on something recently by his Commanding General, in the presence of several other junior officers. DS felt pretty stupid when he realized he had put his foot in his mouth. Later, when the CG was alone with DS, he explained that he was doing just that, using a teaching moment to educate the group. He also told DS, "We're OK "

In any case, your DS better clean up his grooming. He should use this s motivation, which may be how it was intended

Just one man's two cents. None of us on the forums will ever know for sure.
 
It sounds like the Master Sergeant did some corrective action on a MS II for not upholding the standard. None of us can tell if this was bullying or not, but I lean towards no. Assuming he is an MS II since you said first year went well. That tells me he and his classmates know the standards and are not setting the example. The MSG chose to use a corrective action that happens to have your DS at the center. Many times in the military the collective gets punished for the one. This time he used a different tactic to call out one to make an example of the collective. Is it the best approach? Not sure, I wasn’t there. But, it’s a tactics and one used all the time in the military. Maybe the MSG chose him because of convenience, maybe he wanted to shake him to see how he responds. Did it hit home, sounds like it.

This is absolutely a situation for your DS and not his parents. If he thinks he really was bullied, he can consult his chain of command. If this shook him this badly, he is going to face much tougher as he progresses through his training and even as a junior officer. He is going to have corrective action, he is going to get yelled out, he is going to get called out, he is going to fail. Learning to operate under pressure is the name of the game. In 3-4 years he is going to be leading soldiers who faced much much tougher things than being called out for grooming at boot camp. Your DS is learning from this, it’s all about how he responds to it.
 
Listen... From one mom to another, you absolutely MUST let him deal with this on his own.

Whatever the situation is, his mommy cannot come and rescue him. He's an adult now. And he's in a military program. I assure you, if you show up at his school to rescue him, things will be SOOOOOO MUCH WORSE in the long run.

Love him over the phone but encourage him to be the man and soldier he's training to be and deal with this himself. ❤️
 
That sergeant may well have to work for him one day after he is commissioned, and will have to call him “sir” and salute him as a senior the nanosecond after he is commissioned. In the rough-and-tumble way of senior enlisted personnel who have shaped hundreds of thousands of young officers-to-be, across decades of service and across all services, he is teaching him to set the example in personal grooming standards, as part of earning the respect of his future soldiers, that every decision has a consequence, and that the accountability and responsibility for that decision resides in one place. If he is impeccably groomed from this day forward, influences his peers to do the same, and expects the same high standards of his soldiers, he will not have to face this consequence again. No doubt this is all dawning on him as he goes into his second year, where things that were gently dealt with the first year are not so lightly looked on the second year. He has to call on his resilience and grit to get through this transformation.
 
Fortunately, or unfortunately, you (mom) are his safe space. A blessing and a curse. You are also being trained to be a military mom. Resist the urge to ‘fix this’ for him. He is learning and growing into a future leader, who will have to enforce these own standards some day. Lessons are tough sometimes, but this is a relatively painless one for him. Little things do matter.

Maybe he was called out, bc his MSG sees that he is the one of the group, that could beat influence the other? Who knows. But it’s not all about being ‘perfect’. It’s about failing, pulling yourself up, and moving forward. Learning from your failures.

Doesn’t sound like bullying to me. Sounds like a lesson. But, if Mom jumps in, he would suffer. He knows this. Maybe he broke down bc he had a bad day overall. Guess what? We all do. And today is a new day. I bet if you give him some time, he will have a new attitude. This event will be in the past.

Honestly? This is the place for them to learn these lessons, how to deal with failure and grow. Where it’s relatively painless.
 
Bullying or hazing are very loaded terms in this day and age. Cadre to cadet is corrective action, while cadet to cadet might be bullying or hazing. If an NCO is particularly hard on a cadet, then the cadet can go to one of the Captains for advice or to lodge a complaint. By no means do I recommend that course of action, but it is possible.

If this corrective action really bothers a cadet this much, then the cadet might not be a fit for military service.
 
kinnem said:
First, let your son handle it.

Second, while you could be right, you don't know it's bullying. He may have used your son as an example to educate the other violators.

My DS was "educated" on something recently by his Commanding General, in the presence of several other junior officers. DS felt pretty stupid when he realized he had put his foot in his mouth. Later, when the CG was alone with DS, he explained that he was doing just that, using a teaching moment to educate the group. He also told DS, "We're OK "

In any case, your DS better clean up his grooming. He should use this s motivation, which may be how it was intended

Just one man's two cents. None of us on the forums will ever know for sure.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Had this MSG approached my son afterwards for a one-on-one chat, I’m sure I would have felt differently.
 
NavyHoops said:
It sounds like the Master Sergeant did some corrective action on a MS II for not upholding the standard. None of us can tell if this was bullying or not, but I lean towards no. Assuming he is an MS II since you said first year went well. That tells me he and his classmates know the standards and are not setting the example. The MSG chose to use a corrective action that happens to have your DS at the center. Many times in the military the collective gets punished for the one. This time he used a different tactic to call out one to make an example of the collective. Is it the best approach? Not sure, I wasn’t there. But, it’s a tactics and one used all the time in the military. Maybe the MSG chose him because of convenience, maybe he wanted to shake him to see how he responds. Did it hit home, sounds like it.

This is absolutely a situation for your DS and not his parents. If he thinks he really was bullied, he can consult his chain of command. If this shook him this badly, he is going to face much tougher as he progresses through his training and even as a junior officer. He is going to have corrective action, he is going to get yelled out, he is going to get called out, he is going to fail. Learning to operate under pressure is the name of the game. In 3-4 years he is going to be leading soldiers who faced much much tougher things than being called out for grooming at boot camp. Your DS is learning from this, it’s all about how he responds to it.
Click to expand...
“But, it’s a tactics and one used all the time in the military” This scares me because, if this tactic is abused, it can easily degrade into bullying.
 
BJD16 said:
Bullying or hazing are very loaded terms in this day and age. Cadre to cadet is corrective action, while cadet to cadet might be bullying or hazing. If an NCO is particularly hard on a cadet, then the cadet can go to one of the Captains for advice or to lodge a complaint. By no means do I recommend that course of action, but it is possible.

If this corrective action really bothers a cadet this much, then the cadet might not be a fit for military service.
Click to expand...
I’m sure it bothers me much more. Never knew military is this tough. In my 40+ years, I’ve never experienced a situation like this myself, omg, learning everyday.
 
sweetpea3829 said:
Listen... From one mom to another, you absolutely MUST let him deal with this on his own.

Whatever the situation is, his mommy cannot come and rescue him. He's an adult now. And he's in a military program. I assure you, if you show up at his school to rescue him, things will be SOOOOOO MUCH WORSE in the long run.

Love him over the phone but encourage him to be the man and soldier he's training to be and deal with this himself. ❤️
Click to expand...
I did quench my urge to pack him into my luggage and drag him back home.
 
Capt MJ said:
That sergeant may well have to work for him one day after he is commissioned, and will have to call him “sir” and salute him as a senior the nanosecond after he is commissioned. In the rough-and-tumble way of senior enlisted personnel who have shaped hundreds of thousands of young officers-to-be, across decades of service and across all services, he is teaching him to set the example in personal grooming standards, as part of earning the respect of his future soldiers, that every decision has a consequence, and that the accountability and responsibility for that decision resides in one place. If he is impeccably groomed from this day forward, influences his peers to do the same, and expects the same high standards of his soldiers, he will not have to face this consequence again. No doubt this is all dawning on him as he goes into his second year, where things that were gently dealt with the first year are not so lightly looked on the second year. He has to call on his resilience and grit to get through this transformation.
Click to expand...
No issue with him being punished. The issue is only he (one of the several who didn’t shave) got called out and “humiliated” (per a mom’s standards). Anyway, several posts offered perspectives on this, which helped.
 
FaithIG2022 said:
I did quench my urge to pack him into my luggage and drag him back home.
Click to expand...
lol When my son told me about a bad day in plebe summer and how he was treated, I laughed and told him I spent 18 years knowing it was always his fault.

Shake it off, and don’t make the same mistake. One day doesn’t define a cadet or midshipman.
 
FaithIG2022 said:
No issue with him being punished. The issue is only he (one of the several who didn’t shave) got called out and “humiliated” (per a mom’s standards). Anyway, several posts offered perspectives on this, which helped.
Click to expand...
They all learned the lesson though. Maybe the Sergeant thought he was the one to best handle it.
 
Two things to consider. "The standard is the standard" and "Just because others are doing it, it doesn't make it right". Your son has learned this two lessons very hard in one sitting. Of course there can be other ways to teach this lesson, and it was probably pretty jarring for your DS this time. There also can be more to the story. The MSG may have noticed the standard slipping with your son in the recent past. This could have been "the straw that broke the camels back". Maybe this was the first time your DS didn't meet the standard, and the MSG knows your DS is better than that and was handling out some tough love. Maybe the MSG was having a bad day too. It doesn't really matter.

What matters is how your son reacts from this. He's learning that being a adult and a JO is not easy and even little things can cause problems. He will have to develop tough skin. Your support and love will help with this transition. The bad days are harder for parents because we want to "fix it" as we use to do. Using a sports analogy, we use to be the coach to help win the game. Now we are just spectators in the cheap seats. We can cheer, scream, yell, and be happy or mad all we want; we just have no say in what happens. We're just along for the ride....hopefully
 
When our kids hurt, we hurt. So empathy for how you are feeling. But I want to share a different perspective.

Below I am going to use the term ball buster because IMO it's a perfect fit description - if that offends you please skip this post.

My DS (Navy) and his classmates had a gunnery sergeant at their unit who lead various PT, meetings, etc. He - and I say this with all respect to all pronouns and genders - broke balls constantly. He was an equal opportunity ball buster - riding every one of the midshipmen hard. I witnessed this the morning of commissioning - asked if all was OK. All good was my DS's response. And my son like the others were seasoned to handle it, ride it out, make adjustments as needed and move on. I don't know how handling that the first 50 times went by after 2+ years together the mids were accustomed/ able to handle this with ease.

On the day my son commissioned, we got a picture with Gunny and a few of the mids and a challenge coin was shared with him from several midn in one of their first salutes. I thanked the Gunny for his attention to detail and caring to make these officers ready for what lies ahead. In my heart and what I could easily see is that Gunny loved those training in that unit, was doing what he could to get them to hold themselves to a high standard and to get them ready for their futures. People show caring in different ways - this was his contribution.

So fast forward to intake - day 1 in Pensacola - there is a NCO down there that is NOTORIOUS for breaking balls. And my son rode that out issue, and the guy even smiled a bit as he realized he couldn't flap/ rustle my kid like he had for others. And I thought - "Thanks Gunny".

Overall wish your son the best and if he learns to just make the adjustments and let the pressure roll off he'll benefit. Hang in there, hope that helps.
 
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