Waning enthusiasm for USAFA - advice?

Stealth_81 said:
I would like someone with current experience to verify this, because it is quite different from what I remember. As I recall, student wishing to go to grad school (other than AFIT) were required to apply and be awarded fellowships to pay for grad school, and then have that approved in order to go. Once in grad school they were paid as a 2d Lt and got BAH, but the tuition was not paid by the AF. They also had regular required duties at Reserve units assigned near their school, so they were not free from AF duties at all. As I said, my info is dated so I’d like someone to confirm your information.
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My understanding is there are named, competitive scholarships that are orchestrated by the Dean of Faculty's office. Winning one of these few scholarships (Rhodes, Marshall, Fulbright) sends you to a particular school. Winning the The Lincoln Lab Fellowship will send you to MIT. The majority of grad school slots are passed to the AF Institute of Technology. If the masters degree is taught at AFIT (mostly STEM), then thats where you will go for your degree. If it is not taught in house, then AFIT farms you out to a Civilian Institution but with some cost constraints. However, you are told to apply to a bunch of schools ranging from cheap public/state schools with in-state tuition rates, to expensive, top/private schools. If you get into a top/private school, AFIT will then see if their budget can support it. If it can, you will likely get to go. At AFIT, you wear your uniform and "work" a full school day in a military environment. At a civilian institution, the school bills AFIT directly for your tuition and fees, and you get a set stipend for books each semester. If you are the LONE AFIT student at your school, then you will be assigned to the nearest AFROTC Det. Their primary job is to make sure you maintain standards. They will handle your drug testing, annual fitness testing, and may require you to show up in person once a week in uniform for a "quick check". If there are TWO OR MORE AFIT students at the school, the senior officer is designated the "AFIT Liaison Officer" and oversees the junior officers, while coordinating drug and fitness tests as necessary with the Det. The Det is not supposed to task you with any duties, as your boss is the AFIT Dean and your job is to graduate on time. In both cases, you get your usual pay and housing allowance for your location. I was fortunate to get my Masters and PhD at a Civilian Institution, so this should be good info since things probably have not changed very much.

I am not sure if 25% if grads go straight to grad school each year, but its probably higher than you would expect given the amount of bragging I remember hearing from the Dean. The Class of 2023 Grad Stats only says that "close to 20%" of each class has been placed in grad school.
 
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I have a little experience in this area.

There are many paths to grad school following graduation.
  • International scholarships & fellowships (Rhodes, Truman, Gates-Cambridge, etc.) - They are hyper-competitive. Basically if a cadet snags one of these, then the USAF is almost guaranteed to let them go to whatever school they can get into.
  • Graduate Scholars Program (GSP) - each academic dept selects 1-2 cadets for grad school with the expectation that they will return to teach at some point. If the academic dept wants the cadet to pursue a degree that is not offered at AFIT, then funding is available to go to a civilian school (e.g. Econ is not offered at AFIT so the Econ GSP recipient will get to go somewhere else).
  • Advanced Academic Degree (AAD) Program - this program is open USAF-wide so cadets compete with other active duty officers of all ranks. Most AAD opportunities send people to AFIT, but there are some that will send people to civilian schools (e.g. NRO, AFIT Faculty Pipeline).
  • Developing The Airmen We Need Education Program (DAWN-ED) - Another USAF-wide program that is relatively new. So far there have been 10-15 master's slots and 5 PhD slots per year. Selectees are awarded funding to attend a civilian institution, but there is a cap.
If a student is expected to go to AFIT through AAD or GSP, then they can ask to get a degree at a civilian institution - but they'll need to secure their own funding through a fellowship/scholarship.

To address a few points from the last couple posts

Panda57 said:
if he does well at the academy academically, he will surely get into any grad school he would like, 100% paid for.
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Generally, no not any grad school. The majority will go to AFIT. Several will go civilian schools - but chances for acceptance varies greatly between schools and academic depts within schools. Some schools will not be willing to work on the required USAF timeline. Some will not allow their students to forego things like teaching or research assistantships - things that USAF officers are not allowed to participate in.

Panda57 said:
a USAFA grad is pretty much just a college student and has practically no duties as a 2LT.
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In most cases, yes, "practically" being the operative word. You can be asked to do things like facilitate drug testing, serve as the investigative officer for disenrollment proceedings, or participate in a career fair. Overall the duties are very light.

Panda57 said:
including teaching at the academy directly after grad school
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Yes, the faculty pipelines are a good way to get a slot, but in most cases there will be an operational assignment between the grad school assignment and the USAFA faculty assignment.

Panda57 said:
I know one of the people I know has to answer to the ROTC commander at the school but has not been called in for duty since they arrived at the school.
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All officers at civilian schools get administratively assigned to the nearest AF ROTC unit - unless there is a rare circumstance that the nearest AF ROTC unit is prohibitively far away.

Panda57 said:
I do remember that the Air Force had a rule where in order to attend grad school, the student is not allowed to pay for it. They have to have it paid in full. I don't know who exactly pays for it because I always assumed it was the Air Force, but from what I have heard, many have no problem getting it all paid for and everything.
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Correct, if the officer is on a school assignment, they are legally not allowed to pay for it. It is not always the USAF who pays. Finding full-funding for a master's program is extremely uncommon but not impossible. There are a few schools that seem particularly amenable to working with active-duty military grad students but these options are limited.

As for my personal experience - I've had two post-USAFA school assignments, both at (different) civilian schools, and plenty of friends/colleagues who have attended AFIT or other schools across the country.
 
The general advice/recommendation I've always heard for PhD's (this does not apply only to military, mainly talking about civilian side) is to do a program where the university will pay you to do it there. That's how you know that university really wants you for their PhD program and think you'd be a great fit with their faculty. If you have to pay for your PhD at a place, might not want to do your PhD there... look for a place that will pay you to do it.
 
Ivy22 said:
Yes, but it's at a civilian university which means if he decides he doesn't want to do military, he can stay at that college and finish his degree.
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This is not correct. USAFA incurs a five year commitment vice ROTC which is only four.

Also @walker1974, keep in mind that if your son is serious about becoming an astronaut, Space Farce is not the way to go. As someone who served in space operations in the USAF, I can tell you with certainty that he has a better chance of becoming an astronaut by becoming either an Air Force or Navy pilot with an engineering degree, and then attending test pilot school with either of those services. This was/is the path that many astronauts take. Sitting in front of a computer screen on an operations floor in a windowless building is the reality for 99% of Space Force officers and is not a realistic path for those wanting to become astronauts.
 
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walker1974 said:
Hello all. Looking for some advice.

My son is a Junior in hs. He has been interested in Aeronautical/Aerospace since he was 10. Always talked about getting into Space Force and potentially being an astronaut (although not interested in being a pilot). Super smart (4.5 gpa, AP's, 1580 SAT 35 ACT, Golf, Track (shot/disc), leadership, Violin/piano, volunteer hours....very strong candidate).

We visited the Academy a year ago and he was sure it was what he wanted to do. But, 9 months later he started losing interest. I think part of it is that he wants to get his masters and by the time that's completed and still having a 5 year commitment.....his words were "I'll miss the best years of my life" lolol. Sorry, but it made me laugh a little. We definitely don't want to push him on it b/c we know it's hard and it has to be in his heart to do it.

I think if he could more clearly see what an advantage it would provide in his career path it may help. Or also, what the assignments would be like for his area of expertise given his abilities. He is nearly fluent in German, so thought he would want to explore a possible assignment in Germany.

One other thing he was concerned about was being able to continue his violin/piano. Doesn't seem like there's anything at USAFA in that regard.

We are having him apply for the Summer Seminar. Hoping if he gets a few days there, it could rekindle the spark.

If anyone has any advice or suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it.
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The 5 years after graduation were some of the best years of my life.
 
GoodRun said:
My understanding is there are named, competitive scholarships that are orchestrated by the Dean of Faculty's office. Winning one of these few scholarships (Rhodes, Marshall, Fulbright) sends you to a particular school. Winning the The Lincoln Lab Fellowship will send you to MIT. The majority of grad school slots are passed to the AF Institute of Technology. If the masters degree is taught at AFIT (mostly STEM), then thats where you will go for your degree. If it is not taught in house, then AFIT farms you out to a Civilian Institution but with some cost constraints. However, you are told to apply to a bunch of schools ranging from cheap public/state schools with in-state tuition rates, to expensive, top/private schools. If you get into a top/private school, AFIT will then see if their budget can support it. If it can, you will likely get to go. At AFIT, you wear your uniform and "work" a full school day in a military environment. At a civilian institution, the school bills AFIT directly for your tuition and fees, and you get a set stipend for books each semester. If you are the LONE AFIT student at your school, then you will be assigned to the nearest AFROTC Det. Their primary job is to make sure you maintain standards. They will handle your drug testing, annual fitness testing, and may require you to show up in person once a week in uniform for a "quick check". If there are TWO OR MORE AFIT students at the school, the senior officer is designated the "AFIT Liaison Officer" and oversees the junior officers, while coordinating drug and fitness tests as necessary with the Det. The Det is not supposed to task you with any duties, as your boss is the AFIT Dean and your job is to graduate on time. In both cases, you get your usual pay and housing allowance for your location. I was fortunate to get my Masters and PhD at a Civilian Institution, so this should be good info since things probably have not changed very much.

I am not sure if 25% if grads go straight to grad school each year, but its probably higher than you would expect given the amount of bragging I remember hearing from the Dean. The Class of 2023 Grad Stats only says that "close to 20%" of each class has been placed in grad school.
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Sounds like we've had very similar experiences. I didn't touch on the fact that AFIT will try to find room in their budget for an expensive top/private school that exceeds the typical funding cap, but I can confirm that it very much is still a thing. I ended up at a relatively inexpensive school for my PhD and later discovered that this made it possible for AFIT to fully cover another officer at MIT.
 
In my 25-year corporate career, I worked alongside a fair number of former JMOs who eventually rose to major leadership roles such as CEO, CMO and CFO. They were a very impressive bunch. I know that just about all of them would say their 5+ years of active duty were not a waste of time, but the very foundation on which their future success was built. And I heard many of them say, in essence, "those were some of the best years of my life." What I saw: That military experience was not a drag, but an accelerator.
 
When I said he can stay at a civilian university if he decides he doesn't want to do ROTC, I meant that he has some time to decide (like NROTC it is one year, not sure what AFROTC rules are) before being committed to military after graduation. Then if he decides not to continue, he doesn't have to leave the university he's at. If you don't want to go into the military and you're at USAFA, even if you don't owe any money payback to USAF, you cannot stay at USAFA, so you'd have to transfer to finish up your degree and some credits might not transfer.
 
Tex232 said:
Also @walker1974, keep in mind that if your son is serious about becoming an astronaut, Space Farce is not the way to go. As someone who served in space operations in the USAF, I can tell you with certainty that he has a better chance of becoming an astronaut by becoming either an Air Force or Navy pilot with an engineering degree, and then attending test pilot school with either of those services. This was/is the path that many astronauts take. Sitting in front of a computer screen on an operations floor in a windowless building is the reality for 99% of Space Force officers and is not a realistic path for those wanting to become astronauts.
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Having spent some time at the Air Force Flight Test Center, this is absolutely true. Top pilots, particularly if they are engineers, try to go to Test Pilot School. After a tour or two as a test pilot, the best are looking for astronaut.
 
Ivy22 said:
The general advice/recommendation I've always heard for PhD's (this does not apply only to military, mainly talking about civilian side) is to do a program where the university will pay you to do it there. That's how you know that university really wants you for their PhD program and think you'd be a great fit with their faculty. If you have to pay for your PhD at a place, might not want to do your PhD there... look for a place that will pay you to do it.
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Almost all PhD candidates are funded by their program. I am talking traditional, serious, brick and mortar programs that produce new university professors and lab or industry researchers. It is a research based degree, and the discipline's methods and analyses are often so complex and must be accomplished without errors (that novices often make) that it is best learned under a mentor's direct supervision (i.e., your research advisor/dissertation chair). Honestly, cost is not the issue, it is your mentor's limited TIME available to devote to a one-on-one developmental relationship with you. Put simply, you apply for a program, and if a mentor selects you for their program (and commits time to developing you), then they will most likely bring you into an existing stream of research that in turn is paid for by some grant (sponsored by industry, government, or a non-profit). Some of this money would be used to pay for your tuition and salary as a "research assistant" or "teaching assistant".

That said, if you have money, and just want the PhD title by your name, you can pay for an online PhD which may or may not involve difficult research or a dissertation. These degrees are mostly valued by those who don't know the difference between the types and qualities of degrees.
 
Don't push it. A genuine desire to attend USAFA (for its own sake) is the biggest prerequisite that often goes overlooked versus grades, extra-curriculars, and other talents. Sounds like ROTC is better option if he wants to continue many of his interests and not be 100% immersed in a military lifestyle. USAFA can help a person discover talents just as easily as it snuffs existing ones.

Do you know what the professional difference is between a 2LT who graduates USAFA and a 2LT who graduates from ROTC/OTS? Absolutely nothing. Each commissioning source starts from the same space on the monopoly board on day one of active duty.
 
US?A said:
The 5 years after graduation were some of the best years of my life.
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Is the because of your assignment or where/who you lived with? What did you graduate in? Would love to hear more about your 5 years.
 
skyfox said:
Don't push it. A genuine desire to attend USAFA (for its own sake) is the biggest prerequisite that often goes overlooked versus grades, extra-curriculars, and other talents. Sounds like ROTC is better option if he wants to continue many of his interests and not be 100% immersed in a military lifestyle. USAFA can help a person discover talents just as easily as it snuffs existing ones.

Do you know what the professional difference is between a 2LT who graduates USAFA and a 2LT who graduates from ROTC/OTS? Absolutely nothing. Each commissioning source starts from the same space on the monopoly board on day one of acti
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Understood. Yeah, I don't want to push it at all, more just trying to keep it open until he more thoroughly understands all aspects.
 
MidCakePa said:
In my 25-year corporate career, I worked alongside a fair number of former JMOs who eventually rose to major leadership roles such as CEO, CMO and CFO. They were a very impressive bunch. I know that just about all of them would say their 5+ years of active duty were not a waste of time, but the very foundation on which their future success was built. And I heard many of them say, in essence, "those were some of the best years of my life." What I saw: That military experience was not a drag, but an accelerator.
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Great feedback. Thank you.
 
GoodRun said:
He may owe 5 years upon graduation, but grad school (often at AF-expense) would not "stop his clock". Instead, he would get a separate commitment for the masters degree. The commitment varies over the years, but it is usually two years for every one year of school. So, since most Masters degrees are either 1.5 to 2 years, he would owe 3-4 for it. The important thing to note is the commitment is served CONCURRENTLY with his existing 5 year commitment. So if he were to go for his masters degree RIGHT after graduation, he could still get our 5 years after graduation.

As far as missing out during the best years of his life: USAFA offers an established path to the Space Force and a space career that will be respected whenever he leaves the military. One of the biggest complaints I have from young (civilians) is they cannot get hired for the jobs they want (often the ones that pay well) because they don't have the job experience. A military career, no matter how long, will give him the job experience he needs to transition to the civilian world. Many civilian companies favor ex-military because they employed the products and services offered by the company (often a defense contactor) and the ex-military member comes with things like active security clearances, in-depth knowledge of the customer, and acquisition and contacting experience.
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I think this was what I brought up to him was the security clearances that he'd come out with that would be a big advantage if he wants to get into defense industry. Can you eleborate on that?
 
skyfox said:
Do you know what the professional difference is between a 2LT who graduates USAFA and a 2LT who graduates from ROTC/OTS? Absolutely nothing. Each commissioning source starts from the same space on the monopoly board on day one of active duty.
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Academy grads do have an advantage in terms of pilot slots. If you are pilot qualified (medically), then even if you are in the bottom quarter of your graduating class, you are still going to pilot training. It is much more competitive in ROTC.

However, I would say that your average ROTC grad has the advantage in terms of maturity and professionalism in making a first impression at their first assignment. (And I say this as an Academy grad). The very worst of the Academy grads show up a little cocky and entitled, as if merely attending USAFA has already set them up for success. They very worst tend not to volunteer for mundane things like organizating the Holiday Party or joining the Company Grade Officer's Council (which is a unofficial professional organization for networking and putting on events in support of the base). They believe they "put in their time" doing "stupid, meaningless tasks" for four years at USAFA, and its time for OTS and ROTC to volunteer and step up. They don't realize this is how you network and learn about other missions in the AF to develop a big picture of the Wing and how it works to get things done. This is made worse when grads hang together and reinforce these views, which delays the realization that they could be wrong. By contrast, ROTC grads often show up totally excited to be in the AF and are always asking "where did you come from" and "what do you do". They are happy to be immersed in the AF environment and want to spend after duty hours in it. Thankfully, the maturity differences largely dissappear within a couple of years.
 
Nomad@heart said:
I encouraged mine to go through the application process (they had shown interest for years) so it could be an option later… as it is not a school you can crank out an application at the last minute. A candidate weekend was also what really sealed the deal… and took away a lot of the nerves about whether they “fit” there. So I would definitely try a candidate weekend to get a real feel for the place with students on campus and so they can see the grind. As a military family… and having family that was stationed at an academy dealing directly with cadets… it is VITAL that the STUDENT chose this path in the end. When things are hard either as a cadet/mid or on active duty… they have to be able to stand on their own knowing that they chose this life. The process of applying will also show true desire to serve as it is a grind and it becomes very obvious who is being dragged by their parents.
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Thank you and agree! I only know of the Summer Seminar. I haven't heard of a candidate weekend.
 
GoodRun said:
Academy grads do have an advantage in terms of pilot slots. If you are pilot qualified (medically), then even if you are in the bottom quarter of your graduating class, you are still going to pilot training. It is much more competitive in ROTC.

However, I would say that your average ROTC grad has the advantage in terms of maturity and professionalism in making a first impression at their first assignment. (And I say this as an Academy grad). The very worst of the Academy grads show up a little cocky and entitled, as if merely attending USAFA has already set them up for success. They very worst tend not to volunteer for mundane things like organizating the Holiday Party or joining the Company Grade Officer's Council (which is a unofficial professional organization for networking and putting on events in support of the base). They believe they "put in their time" doing "stupid, meaningless tasks" for four years at USAFA, and its time for OTS and ROTC to volunteer and step up. They don't realize this is how you network and learn about other missions in the AF to develop a big picture of the Wing and how it works to get things done. This is made worse when grads hang together and reinforce these views, which delays the realization that they could be wrong. By contrast, ROTC grads often show up totally excited to be in the AF and are always asking "where did you come from" and "what do you do". They are happy to be immersed in the AF environment and want to spend after duty hours in it. Thankfully, the maturity differences largely dissappear within a couple of years.
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Very true about the pilot slots.
 
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