AP Calc AB vs Dual Enrollment Algebra

[Sciencnerd]

Hey y'all! I was wondering if any of you fine folks could give me some feedback on this question I have. Next year for math I'm taking pre-calc, and after that I plan on taking AP Stat since it is the only math class I'm actually interested in. Senior year I have the option of taking AP Calc AB or doing some college algebra (dual enrollment). I've heard that admissions would rather have a strong base in algebra and pre-calc than calculus, but they also say to take the hardest classes I can manage. I also have the option to do AP Calc instead of AP Stat junior year, but again I actually would like to take statistics and I'm not interested in calculus at all. Thoughts?

 

[A1Janitor]

AP calc is more valuable imo than Stats.

 

[foxtail1027]

You will have to take both once you get to USAFA: stats and calculus. If you can't take both, I would take whichever one you would do better in and enjoy more. It's senior year transcript and one class won't impact admissions that much.

 

[99Gold]

As a math teacher, I'd suggest AP Calc. The strong foundation in algebra vs. Calc is because they don't want students to to rush to Calc. That doesn't seem to be your case at all. You are required to take 2 semesters of Calc, calc-based Physics, plus other stem classes at USAFA that will use Calc so you might as well start leaning it now.

I do agree with A1Janitor that AP Calc will be more useful to you than Stats at the Academy.

 

[AFrpaso]

Take AP Calc!

Senior year I have the option of taking AP Calc AB or doing some college algebra (dual enrollment).

"College algebra" could be practically anything. A remedial course, a very basic course designed to fulfill the math requirement of "fuzzy liberal arts" majors, or an extremely advanced and abstract experience. The dual enrollment credits will not transfer to USAFA.

I've heard that admissions would rather have a strong base in algebra and pre-calc than calculus

I think that is the position of USAFA's Department of Mathematical Sciences, but not necessarily the admissions office. At least that's how it has been explained to me. I believe admissions would prefer AP Calc. Take that with a grain of salt.

I actually would like to take statistics and I'm not interested in calculus at all

The AP Stats curriculum is non-calculus-based, but if you want to continue to study probability and statistics, then you will absolutely need calculus. It's not so bad as it sounds and it has applications in practically every scientific field.

There are actually 3 different statistics courses at USAFA. MATH 300 for "fuzzy liberal arts majors", MATH 356 for "scientists and engineers", and MATH 377 for "mathematicians". Basically, if you are planning to major in something "techie" or "STEM" then you will take at least MATH 356. Both MATH 356 and MATH 377 are calculus-based.

 

[Academician]

I like the advice above. In fact, I taught Physics at USAFA a good number of years ago. The reason I mention this fact is that I found that a good number of my students (and classmates too) did not have good time management skills and good study habits. It seems counterintuitive, but most cadets simply did not 'have to' study in high school. They are bright and talented so high school learning comes easily. Point is that I recommend that you also take the time to 'learn' these skills (if you need them). They do not come naturally and take some 'real' practice to develop them. I emphasize this point today with my students as part of their preparations to become cadets (or middies). Also, don't forget the other important components to your preparations: athletics and activities. Best of luck with your journey!

 

[Osprey123]

You need to take AP Calc. Too much STEM emphasis at USAFA not to prepare properly. We'd need a course description or syllabus to judge the value of the college algebra course. Real college level algebra is very difficult.

 

[moho]

You need to take AP Calc. Too much STEM emphasis at USAFA not to prepare properly. We'd need a course description or syllabus to judge the value of the college algebra course. Real college level algebra is very difficult.

In my experience as an engineer in college, the most difficult algebra is entirely in a Calculus context to integrate or derive really wacky equations

 

[Osprey123]

In my experience as an engineer in college, the most difficult algebra is entirely in a Calculus context to integrate or derive really wacky equations

For an engineer, sure. I actually didn't find that too bad when I studied engineering. But Algebra DOES trip up students in Calc which is why you need very strong skills in that regard. However, algebra taken in an applied math track is a higher level and difficult class. I can't imagine anyone would dual enroll in it.

Really OP should take AP Calc and also the dual enroll College Algebra because it will helps the most.

Self study Statistics in the summer if that is an interest.

 

[Osprey123]

@Sciencnerd Actually if you are already strong in Algebra, you can just demonstrate that by taking the Algebra CLEP (college level exam program). You earn college credit when you pass. Go to College Board for more information. Get a study guide to prep.

Then you could take both AP Statistics and Calculus.

 

[AFrpaso]

@Sciencnerd Actually if you are already strong in Algebra, you can just demonstrate that by taking the Algebra CLEP (college level exam program). You earn college credit when you pass. Go to College Board for more information. Get a study guide to prep.

Then you could take both AP Statistics and Calculus.

Interesting idea, but is it worth the time/money? It might help to give structure to some additional algebra self-study, but USAFA does not accept CLEP credits. Even if OP ended up attending some other college and pursued a STEM degree (assuming based on their username), I don't see Algebra CLEP credit going very far in fulfilling degree requirements. I suppose it could be included in their USAFA application nonetheless.

 

[Georgia Hokie]

In my experience as an engineer in college, the most difficult algebra is entirely in a Calculus context to integrate or derive really wacky equations

Agree as another engineer...but feel Stats is getting knocked on a bit here. If OP can ONLY take one or other go AP Calc for sure...but AP Stats is EXTREMELY helpful in today's STEM world across all fields as we are constantly working with large amounts of data, measurements and other info to sort through and make sense of. Calc is great, but Garbage In Garbage Out...they also need to understand bigger picture. So OP...take BOTH if you can, but AP Calc if only one. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Osprey123]

Interesting idea, but is it worth the time/money? It might help to give structure to some additional algebra self-study, but USAFA does not accept CLEP credits. Even if OP ended up attending some other college and pursued a STEM degree (assuming based on their username), I don't see Algebra CLEP credit going very far in fulfilling degree requirements. I suppose it could be included in their USAFA application nonetheless.

The algebra study is worth it for a STEM field. It cost about the same as the AP exams which USAFA doesn't give credit for either but other schools will. It counts for some majors. I don't know OPs major. But if OP is considering dual enrollment for College Algebra and is strong in math, a CLEP would be a lot easier than the time and money of a dual enroll with the same benefit of college credit. Just an idea.

 

[AFrpaso]

The algebra study is worth it for a STEM field. It cost about the same as the AP exams which USAFA doesn't give credit for either but other schools will. It counts for some majors. I don't know OPs major. But if OP is considering dual enrollment for College Algebra and is strong in math, a CLEP would be a lot easier than the time and money of a dual enroll with the same benefit of college credit. Just an idea.

I agree that algebra skills are imperative for STEM fields. My recommendation would be that OP keep those skills sharp on his own time with free resources. They should take AP Calc (and take the AP test) and AP Stats. CLEP or DE algebra is overkill.

Now for some comments about AP exams, validation, CLEP tests, and DE credits:

USAFA doesn't give credit for AP exams, but they do use AP exams as validation criteria for certain courses. Most majors at USAFA are "overloaded" in the sense that the total required number of credit hours for the major is over the minimum required number of credit hours to graduate. If a course is validated (not transferred), e.g. Calc I validated (in part) by the AP Calc AB test, then the total required number of credit hours for any USAFA major is decreased because Calc I is a part of USAFA's core curriculum. So while an AP exam doesn't transfer credit, it can still reduce the total credit hours that a cadet will take at USAFA and therefore make their life easier. Of course, validating courses only makes sense from a credit perspective up until the point where a cadet needs to take additional courses to meet the minimum required number of credit hours to graduate. Even then, those extra courses can be pretty much anything that is of personal interest.

USAFA does not accept DE courses if the course is counted towards fulfilling high school graduation requirements, i.e. on the high school transcript. It will look good on an a USAFA applicant's academic profile, though probably won't be the deciding factor in gaining an appointment. In general, dual enrollment courses only transfer to other colleges on a case-by-case basis according to the specific college's policy.

USAFA does not accept CLEP tests. A fair amount of universities do not accept CLEP tests, including many "premier" universities. If OP is competitive for USAFA, then it is likely that they will also be applying to other "premier" universities.

Whether DE or CLEP, college algebra credit is not going to go very far, if anywhere, towards fulfilling STEM degree requirements. Most STEM degrees start at Calc I. It might count towards fulfilling a math requirement of a fuzzy liberal arts major, provided the college accepts the DE or CLEP credits.

 

[HCopter]

Read and reread @AFrpaso post #14 - excellent comprehensive explanation!

Another checkmark for Take AP Calc AB first, AP Stats your senior year.

I think it looks better to be able to show you have math chops with a 6th semester transcript AP Calc AB final grade (and that would hopefully be an A, along with a really strong AP exam score) and the 12 grade course in progress sheet with AP Stats. You are initially placed in Calc 1, 2, 2 advanced, or 3. See core curriculm page 378 (380/465 pdf page). It won't show on your USAFA transcript as a validation course, but yes, it effectively can free up a class or even two for something else.

You never have to justify why you took AP Calc then AP Stats. It's great to do dual enrollment if you don't have the AP Calc AB option, but when you do, then you might have to justify why you didn't take it at school, why you didn't take the AP exam, and instead chose college algebra of unknown quality, compared to AP clasess which are relatively uniform across the country, a known commodity especially if you pair your class grade with the AP exam grade as evidence of mastery. College class - who knows.

It's fine to admit you don't like any other math, but I say save the best for last, pull off the bandaid, just eat your vegetables, [insert other cliches here] and take AP Stats as you are running the victory lap with an offer of admission your senior year.

 

[Ronin08]

My DS is taking the AP Calc exam this spring, and assuming he does well enough to validate that course, should he? Or would it make more sense for him to just re-take the CALC at USAFA to reinforce those foundational skills and maybe earn an "easy A" to boost his GPA, rather than jumping into a more difficult class right away?

 

[A1Janitor]

My DS is taking the AP Calc exam this spring, and assuming he does well enough to validate that course, should he? Or would it make more sense for him to just re-take the CALC at USAFA to reinforce those foundational skills and maybe earn an "easy A" to boost his GPA, rather than jumping into a more difficult class right away?

My son didn’t validate anything at USNA - wasn’t a gpa decision. They put him in calc 3 anyway.

Later on he regretted it because he would have had room to take additional engineer electives outside his major.

If you want a dual major, or a minor - you should validate.

 

[Spartan01]

I'm currently in the BC part of Calculus AB/BC and AB was not hard as some described it to be. I struggled more with the algebra part and as long as you put in the effort, you will be fine. BC is is definitely harder though and anecdotally, it's completely normal to retake Calculus at USNA.

 

[99Gold]

My DS is taking the AP Calc exam this spring, and assuming he does well enough to validate that course, should he? Or would it make more sense for him to just re-take the CALC at USAFA to reinforce those foundational skills and maybe earn an "easy A" to boost his GPA, rather than jumping into a more difficult class right away?

USAFA will encourage him to take the class he placed into (i.e. not repeat a class that he tested out of). They even have grade forgiveness for doolies that take Calc 3. My ds placed into Calc 2 and hasn't had any trouble at all. He is in Calc 3 this semester and isn't having any problems.

 

[Airsailer2000]

For both USAFA and any plan B college AP Calc AB is preferred over AP Stats.