Boots/Low-quarters

By the by, I'll give you my $.02 on Nike SFBs (I wear a pair regularly). They are very light and well-ventilated. They are great for marching, flying (they're not flight approved...shhhh) and daily work. One thing they're not good for is, ironically, the field. The uppers are two-ply nylon, which means they offer very little ankle support compared to full leather uppers or other composite style uppers. The soles are soft and comfy, which make for great hardball boots. I definitely would not use them for rough terrain or airborne/rope ops. Just a few thoughts for down the road, as they are a popular seller at the C Store.
 
The low quarters are Bates. They make a Lite version which we bought for our son last year. You can find them on ebay for less money. Don't worry about the shinning them before RDay. Just make sure you wear them around before you show up.
 
However, we received Wellco shoes, near as I can tell item #B301. They seem to match the requirements specified in the boot letter (except the item#).

DS received some wellco's in an early order, and his were not as well made or comfortable as the Bates. We returned for the Bates, and DS liked them much better. The Cadet store also has wellco, so if you order from there specify the Bates if that's what you want.

No one we've talked to (DS, friends, and cadets of friends) had any hassle over boot brand/make during 2015 BEAST. But that could be squad, platoon, or company specific. Your mileage may vary.

One thing, if you get blisters, you'll get increased "help" from your CoC, and if you went with non-spec it could get some grief. But outside of that, it did not seem to be an area of focus.

All the discussion about bringing blister treatment, moleskins, etc, may be for naught... lately instructions seem to have mandatory reporting of blisters to your squad leader, who then will either tell you how to treat or refer. Don't know how well that was enforced last year, but some squads did for sure.

Re: boot brands- you have to understand that Belleville and Bates both make roughly a dozen boots that are ACU authorized, and most "meet the spec".

But meeting the spec does not make them the lightest, or most comfortable. And what you prefer others may not like based on fit or how used you are to wearing hard soled boots.

So you need to try both the newer high speed boots along with the more traditional (310/390) to see which approach works for you.

The Belleville Khyber and the Bates M8 are both fairly new boots, and are very close to the Nike & Oakely's in design. Most I know who wear both say they are as comfortable. They are a bit sturdier than the Nike's and Oakleys, which can make a difference in the field. The Khybers are a bit milder and less "rad" looking than the M8's, but other wise very similar.

The older Belleville 310 and 390DES's are good boots, but are less padded, harder soled, and a step toward the older mil boots. And the 390's a bit more traditional than the 310's.

Your 2nd set of boots issued on R-day will likely be a contract boot very similar to the 390's. Some cadets received 390's for sure, others a no-name boot with just an NSN number or similar on it. (Altama was one brand) I've only known one cadet who liked their issue boot more than the boot letter options, but I'm sure there are others. But it's running about 20:1 in favor of the boot letter boot options!

The 310's have their advocates, but the tread is very mild. I'm aware of multiple reports of this being an issue during beast obstacle course, land nav, etc. They got through, but DS and friends indicate that the M8's and Khybers simply worked better. DS and squaddies got tired of helping one person up everything, you don't want to be that squaddie. Remember you are buying boots to use in temperate wooded NY state, not the desert. Traction does appear to be an issue based on reports last year, and some activities are graded based on time. But for garrison use the 310's seem to be fine, and may be preferable for desk or urban work.

We never found the Khyber's locally, but the M8's & 310's are fairly available. Try them on side by side, there is a difference. I still occasionally wear traditional mil boots by choice, but I'm sold on the M8/Khyber type design now after trying them with DS last spring. They are the closest thing I've found to a quality hiking boot (Montrail, Merril, etc) in construction & fit in a mil boot. If the Sage or Tan were available with goretex I'd have a pair already. I may still get some for warm weather wear when I want a full height boot.

But you need to find boots that fit you and your foot! There are several tests you should do to prevent blisters and toenail problems. REI is one of the best places for this type of thing as they are trained on how to fit correctly for length, heel, and width.

The most common fit error is buying to loose. You need room in the toe, but the width and heel cup need to be snug. If your heel "lifts" when doing an exaggerated walk, you will get blisters. Same for sliding fore and aft, when properly laced there should be no sliding even when walking downhill or scuffing your feet to a stop on carpet. This is critical to avoid blisters and toe nail damage. The toe box should loose enough that your toes are not touching the front.

There are lacing tricks to deal with certain fit issues that REI can help with.

Having done and still doing quite a bit of hiking with load, I'm not a fan of the "wear dress socks as liners" and other old remedies. If you are stuck somewhere with no other options, it may work.

But properly fit, the modern boots with a decent boot sock (Thorlo, Smartwool, etc) will work better than cobbled up combinations.

This holds true with the low quarters as well. You can get black thorlo uniform socks or similar, and they really help. No one I know wears the issue dress socks for anything.

Lastly, regarding shining low quarters. A light coat of polish to reduce scuffing helps prior to R-day. Beyond that, let your squad leader lead you down the polish path. They may have you strip them and start from ground zero, or just do the minimum.

DS's squad leader never really worked with them on shoes, and now DS regrets it. Luckily he had a prepster roommate who helped him learn the basics, but he's still not as good at it as others. Some did the full strip down to bare leather and repolish routine.

Most cadets we know keep "work shoes" and "inspection shoes". And some (DS included) do similar with the boots, but you are rarely inspected in ACU's once past BEAST. And if so, it's a TA50 type functionality inspection, not a spit and polish. So the less liked issue boots stay nice and clean in the cabinet.

In general, it seemed like there was less hassle about specific shoes, socks, shorts & T's at 2015 beast than what you traditionally hear. Just avoid visible logo's, stick with the right colors, etc. There were new cadets wearing Nike's purchased at the cadet store due to poor initial boot fit, blisters, etc.

But forget to tuck your laces in, or similar, and you may get to learn special squat thrust/toe touch hybrid exercises in front of the platoon saying "Bad boots, Bad Boots" on each rep while the platoon waits! :thumb: (not uncommon last year, apparently)

You'll get lot's of input on this, some of it contradictory. The good news is that most cadets survive independent of boot choice! :smile: Some have more comfortable journeys than others!
 
They're. Just. Boots.

And nothing you'll do in Beast Barracks is that tough. Buy boots that fit and meet spec. Move on. Don't get caught up on details that don't make much difference in the overall picture.

No one ever failed a ruck march or obstacle course because he wore M8s instead of 390s or Khybers or SFBs or S2Vs. He may have failed because his boots didn't fit, but not because of the "cool guy" design of one boot over another.
 
They're. Just. Boots.

And nothing you'll do in Beast Barracks is that tough. Buy boots that fit and meet spec. Move on. Don't get caught up on details that don't make much difference in the overall picture.

No one ever failed a ruck march or obstacle course because he wore M8s instead of 390s or Khybers or SFBs or S2Vs. He may have failed because his boots didn't fit, but not because of the "cool guy" design of one boot over another.

Great post, scoutpilot! :thumb:
 
They're. Just. Boots.

And nothing you'll do in Beast Barracks is that tough. Buy boots that fit and meet spec. Move on. Don't get caught up on details that don't make much difference in the overall picture.

No one ever failed a ruck march or obstacle course because he wore M8s instead of 390s or Khybers or SFBs or S2Vs. He may have failed because his boots didn't fit, but not because of the "cool guy" design of one boot over another.

Lima Charlie, your black boot cadet experience trumps recent cadet experience. Got it! :smile: We know you'd prefer cadets to report in shower shoes and ranger panties. (TCH)

I agree with your general theme, you won't fail beast over boot model if properly fitting. :smile:

But when someone asks about differences, or availability, why not share that?

Should they just blindly pick one based on the low res photo? Many end up ordering boots online, as the allowed ones are hard to find on bases unless you luck out with a good surplus store.

There is no perceived cool guy aspect, that's not how current cadets view it. The HSLD types usually don't even wear issue boots at all. The worst you can be is a gear-nut poser.

Besides, it gives the parents something to do as, since they cannot shop for color coordinated sheets and milk crates for the dorm. Drive little Johnny all over the state looking for the mythical non-shiny low quarters and optimal boots.

Satisfy that urge- "the only difference between us and the animals is our ability to accessorize!" :smile: (Some movie about combat)

Boots & quarters are an annual topic about this time of year, and have been since they started allowing different options. A quick search would tell you anything someone would need. And if not here, then other forums with active duty infantry types.
 
Lima Charlie, your black boot cadet experience trumps recent cadet experience. Got it! :smile: We know you'd prefer cadets to report in shower shoes and ranger panties. (TCH)

Not sure what TCH means, but Ranger panties and shower shoes is purely a leisure outfit. I only wear it for special occasions. Don't forget the light coat of CLP!

I wouldn't say my experience "trumps" theirs. But it does go to show that you don't need the coolest/newest "features" (as some candidates have mentioned) in a boot to be successful. The old LPCs (leather personnel carriers) were far from high tech, but most of us survived just fine. The new stuff is light years beyond those old dogs, and we're better off for it.

I agree with your general theme, you won't fail beast over boot model if properly fitting. :smile:

Absolutely. Fit trumps EVERYTHING. Speedlaces and waterproof and lightweight and vented and super sawtooth tread can't fix a bad fit.

But when someone asks about differences, or availability, why not share that?

Should they just blindly pick one based on the low res photo? Many end up ordering boots online, as the allowed ones are hard to find on bases unless you luck out with a good surplus store.

Nothing wrong with sharing that info. It's great info. My post was not in any way meant to dismiss that info's validity. My point was simply to say...don't get caught up in the minutiae. These youngsters come from a generation that is aware of the minutiae of different products (iphones, clothes, computers, etc.) and more analytical about those differences than mine was. That's a product of the internet age and the awesome wealth of information available. There's nothing wrong with having all the info. It's easy to get bogged down in the choices, especially when the subject is unfamiliar.

There is no perceived cool guy aspect, that's not how current cadets view it. The HSLD types usually don't even wear issue boots at all. The worst you can be is a gear-nut poser.

There's not a spoken one on here and likely not in the cadet-to-parent discussions, but it always exists. I mean if looking cool didn't matter, they wouldn't make boots look cool! Heck, we have a joke at work. Rule one of any new piece of kit is "Gots to look cool."

Besides, it gives the parents something to do as, since they cannot shop for color coordinated sheets and milk crates for the dorm. Drive little Johnny all over the state looking for the mythical non-shiny low quarters and optimal boots.

Satisfy that urge- "the only difference between us and the animals is our ability to accessorize!" :smile: (Some movie about combat)

Boots & quarters are an annual topic about this time of year, and have been since they started allowing different options. A quick search would tell you anything someone would need. And if not here, then other forums with active duty infantry types.

Can't argue with that. I have yet to besmirch the good name of humanity by passing on my genes, so I can't relate.
 
Roger All, SP!

Not sure what TCH means, but Ranger panties and shower shoes is purely a leisure outfit. I only wear it for special occasions. Don't forget the light coat of CLP!

You do know TCH, just not in acronym form. As I did not come through USMA it would be inappropriate for me to use the term. (Though I can appreciate cadet humor occasionally, like http://mylifeisgreyt.tumblr.com often has)

BTW, you are dating yourself with CLP. Some would argue LSA is much better, and has that nice fruity smell! (you think it's stupid to discuss boot features, you should hear the weapons lube debates! Froglube is the latest craze).

Your point is completely valid- It's probably OK to want to find stuff that works. But it should not be a stress generator. I've seen parents in a panic trying to find an item mentioned on facebookmoms. It might have even been useful, but in general, less stuff is better. And some stuff on lists people chase is just not needed.

Last years defacto policy was that anything allowed (or even reasonable) for R-day could be sent after rday if really needed. Just no contraband.

Common request- more underarmor T's & shorts. Socks are also a universal theme. Acne soap was another.

I have yet to besmirch the good name of humanity by passing on my genes, so I can't relate.

That's inexcusable! but they'd probably just disappoint by going Armor or some worse fate.
 
Boot socks

I have read that my DS should bring boot liners in olive color. Can anyone recommend a particular brand? Are there different types for cold and warm weather? I also read that he can bring compression shorts but needs to black out the waistband logo that most come with.
 
I have read that my DS should bring boot liners in olive color. Can anyone recommend a particular brand? Are there different types for cold and warm weather? I also read that he can bring compression shorts but needs to black out the waistband logo that most come with.

When you say boot liners, are you referring to socks? Or goretex type liners? Also, is this the official USMA R-day supply list??? If it is the official list, then you need to follow it. But it sounds like one of the unofficial lists floating around.

If you are referring to socks, last years official supply list stated brown or black boot socks. You can get Thorlo, Smartwool, Wigwam, or similar boot socks designed for military service in those colors as well as Olive and Field Green (ACU green). The standard issue Olive green boot sock is also apparently ACU approved and some cadets wear them. DS indicates cadre was more interested in making sure you did not have blisters than the sock color or type.

For what it's worth, it's probably more critical to have better than issue dress socks than the boot socks. They wear them far more, especially in the beginning, and there is a bigger difference between the issue and premium (thorlo, etc) socks.

I would not suggest goretex type boot liners for BEAST unless it's on the USMA recommended list. Not needed, just another thing to carry & keep up with. If it is needed, you can send them later.

Regarding the logo stuff, that has started to become a parents club myth with a life of it's own. IE: It may have been a big deal in the past, but we've not heard of a single 2015 cadet hassled because their underwear band had a black underarmor logo on it. :smile: Not saying it didn't or couldn't happen, just that it does not appear to be very common.

What you do need to avoid is any logo which would be exposed during PT or seen through the white shirt. Adidas black logos on the chest can be seen through the shirt and are not recommended. Logo's on the soles of socks are fine.

All that said, common sense applies:

- The cadet really does not want to stand out. You can find generic underarmor for half the price with no logos. Walmart & Target are your friend. Especially when your cadet mails and asks for 10 more underarmor type T-shirts. Laundry can be delayed, and is not great to start with.

- Sports logos, bright colors, etc are asking for trouble, even if normally hidden.

- Policy may change at any time. So it's probably OK to play it conservative. But don't agonize over this. Worst case, they do some push ups and tell them not to wear it. If not doing pushups for that, they'll do it for something else!


This is what we are telling our 2016 cadets & parents. Hope it helps!
 
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Hawk, I was referencing one of the "unofficial lists". Thanks for the advice, and yes it helps!
 
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