Bullying or hazing or what?

FaithIG2022 said:
What happened a few days ago was, several cadets had grooming issues (shaving), but only my son got picked by the cadre who is an MSG (someone educate an ignorant mother what MSG means please). This MSG asked my son to repeat multiple times, loud, what he did wrong in front the whole group. He even said something like “I don’t know why you’re in the Army.” To me, this is very humiliating, insulting, and offensive. Something that had never happened to my son before.

The issue is, this MSG ONLY picked my son, but no one else, why? If this is the way he trains the cadets, he should have done the same to all the cadets with grooming issues, but he didn’t. He only singled out one person.

My son was totally shocked and intimated as he had never experienced this. I heard him weeping on the phone, and the next thing I did was, I booked the next flight to meet him at school. My son would probably stop calling me mom if I were to get in touch with his PMS about this. He wants to deal with this all by himself. But after consulting with a retired brigadier general from the Air Force, I’m worried this might be some type of hazing or bullying.

Need advice on what should be done.
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... so the MSG was teaching him grooming 101. And that's normal.

* Jump School. A candidate beside me forgot to shave during 0630 inspection. An Airborne instructor asked him, "who do you think you are, Jesus Christ?" He answered, "yes." Airborne instructors tried to "kill" him in the gig pit for 3 hours.

*Plebe Summer. Detailers eyeballed (1 inch) my DS's whiskers daily. He learned the art of grooming eventually because during his leave last Summer he asked for razors, shaving scream, body spray, Listerine, deodorant, and body scrub.
 
Herman_Snerd said:
When our kids hurt, we hurt. So empathy for how you are feeling. But I want to share a different perspective.

Below I am going to use the term ball buster because IMO it's a perfect fit description - if that offends you please skip this post.

My DS (Navy) and his classmates had a gunnery sergeant at their unit who lead various PT, meetings, etc. He - and I say this with all respect to all pronouns and genders - broke balls constantly. He was an equal opportunity ball buster - riding every one of the midshipmen hard. I witnessed this the morning of commissioning - asked if all was OK. All good was my DS's response. And my son like the others were seasoned to handle it, ride it out, make adjustments as needed and move on. I don't know how handling that the first 50 times went by after 2+ years together the mids were accustomed/ able to handle this with ease.

On the day my son commissioned, we got a picture with Gunny and a few of the mids and a challenge coin was shared with him from several midn in one of their first salutes. I thanked the Gunny for his attention to detail and caring to make these officers ready for what lies ahead. In my heart and what I could easily see is that Gunny loved those training in that unit, was doing what he could to get them to hold themselves to a high standard and to get them ready for their futures. People show caring in different ways - this was his contribution.

So fast forward to intake - day 1 in Pensacola - there is a NCO down there that is NOTORIOUS for breaking balls. And my son rode that out issue, and the guy even smiled a bit as he realized he couldn't flap/ rustle my kid like he had for others. And I thought - "Thanks Gunny".

Overall wish your son the best and if he learns to just make the adjustments and let the pressure roll off he'll benefit. Hang in there, hope that helps.
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This REAAALY makes me want to attach a clip of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman from Full Metal Jacket, but I’m afraid I’d get banned. 😂 “Is that a jelly donut in your footlocker?!….. I CANT HEAR YOU!”
 
I can clean a toilet better than 99.99 percent of the human population from OCS punishment. Looking back, I deserved every minute scrubbing!
 
AA787DRIVER said:
I can clean a toilet better than 99.99 percent of the human population from OCS punishment. Looking back, I deserved every minute scrubbing!
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I am sure that you were an excellent PLO.

*Permanent Latrine Orderly*
 
FaithIG2022 said:
What happened a few days ago was, several cadets had grooming issues (shaving), but only my son got picked by the cadre who is an MSG (someone educate an ignorant mother what MSG means please). This MSG asked my son to repeat multiple times, loud, what he did wrong in front the whole group. He even said something like “I don’t know why you’re in the Army.” To me, this is very humiliating, insulting, and offensive. Something that had never happened to my son before.

The issue is, this MSG ONLY picked my son, but no one else, why? If this is the way he trains the cadets, he should have done the same to all the cadets with grooming issues, but he didn’t. He only singled out one person.

My son was totally shocked and intimated as he had never experienced this. I heard him weeping on the phone, and the next thing I did was, I booked the next flight to meet him at school. My son would probably stop calling me mom if I were to get in touch with his PMS about this. He wants to deal with this all by himself. But after consulting with a retired brigadier general from the Air Force, I’m worried this might be some type of hazing or bullying.

Need advice on what should be done.
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And once he becomes a commissioned officer what would be your strategy in situations like that? Get on the boat, sit in the middle of the ocean waiting for the submarine to surface so that you can discuss the topic with your son’s commanding officer?
 
FaithIG2022 said:
What happened a few days ago was, several cadets had grooming issues (shaving), but only my son got picked by the cadre who is an MSG (someone educate an ignorant mother what MSG means please). This MSG asked my son to repeat multiple times, loud, what he did wrong in front the whole group. He even said something like “I don’t know why you’re in the Army.” To me, this is very humiliating, insulting, and offensive. Something that had never happened to my son before.

The issue is, this MSG ONLY picked my son, but no one else, why? If this is the way he trains the cadets, he should have done the same to all the cadets with grooming issues, but he didn’t. He only singled out one person.

My son was totally shocked and intimated as he had never experienced this. I heard him weeping on the phone, and the next thing I did was, I booked the next flight to meet him at school. My son would probably stop calling me mom if I were to get in touch with his PMS about this. He wants to deal with this all by himself. But after consulting with a retired brigadier general from the Air Force, I’m worried this might be some type of hazing or bullying.

Need advice on what should be done.
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I would add you might know the entire story behind it. It probably has been something the MSGT talked about several times or something. Sounds like it has been a pain point. Remember you are only getting one side. I would advise against every calling to get the other side. ;-)

Not trying to be mean, but if this is the worse thing that happens to him in the military. Take it now and run.

These future officers have to set the example. NO ONE will respect them if they're out shape and untidy. I am not running into battle with that man or women.
 
FaithIG2022 said:
“But, it’s a tactics and one used all the time in the military” This scares me because, if this tactic is abused, it can easily degrade into bullying.
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It’s called the responsibility of leadership. The more the rank, the more the responsibility and accountability. It’s why there are orders and chain of command. If this is the most stressful thing your DS has encountered during his 1+ years of ROTC… he is doing fine.
 
... Welcome to the military! Accept it.

* Fort Sam Houston, TX. I attended several conferences there in my career. During my 0630 runs, I often see newly minted medical nurses and doctors cry in the sidewalk like their dog just died. One day I asked one of 'em. She said, "Sir, the Sergeants are screaming at me." Okay.

* Camp McCall, NC. SFQC.
- Patrolling phase. We have two notorious DIs as in deranged instructors. DI1 would wake us up daily, around 0200. Have a formation in front of the flag, and sing the Ballad of the Green Berets, all 3 verses. See video.
One day, DI2 ordered us to conduct a formal military burial complete with taps and honor guards firing three rounds. It turned out that in the middle of the night someone used the bathroom 40 meters short of the required 100 meters from the base camp. So DI2 ordered us to dig up the poop, marched 40 meters and conducted a formal burial ceremony.

- Recon Phase. Summer in NC is extremely hot. After lunch, it was difficult to stay awake in the classroom. So DI1 would stay in the rear with a BB gun. He would shoot anyone nodding off. That's not enough however. DI1 and his best friend DI2 perfected the art of "the flying body." They would let a candidate sleep for about 5 minutes, then nonchalantly pickup the candidate and throw him out the window. It's about a six foot drop. So you wake up during the midair flight. Hello!


 
FaithIG2022 said:
What happened a few days ago was, several cadets had grooming issues (shaving), but only my son got picked by the cadre who is an MSG (someone educate an ignorant mother what MSG means please). This MSG asked my son to repeat multiple times, loud, what he did wrong in front the whole group. He even said something like “I don’t know why you’re in the Army.” To me, this is very humiliating, insulting, and offensive. Something that had never happened to my son before.

The issue is, this MSG ONLY picked my son, but no one else, why? If this is the way he trains the cadets, he should have done the same to all the cadets with grooming issues, but he didn’t. He only singled out one person.

My son was totally shocked and intimated as he had never experienced this. I heard him weeping on the phone, and the next thing I did was, I booked the next flight to meet him at school. My son would probably stop calling me mom if I were to get in touch with his PMS about this. He wants to deal with this all by himself. But after consulting with a retired brigadier general from the Air Force, I’m worried this might be some type of hazing or bullying.

Need advice on what should be done.
Click to expand...
For Christmas MSI year, we got DS a very good electric razor. I think he ended up carrying it around in his back pack. Haircuts were his business.

He was often times on the receiving end of criticism from upperclassmen for his insufficient "Hooah". Cadre not so much, because the assignment was something of a reward for having spent so much time deployed in Iraqistan. What he did to deflect them, and I would suggest your DS do the same after he cleans up his grooming, was to be 10 minutes early for EVERYTHING, especially morning PT and rucks. He set a goal of beating them in the rucks and runs. That gets noticed.

That will be good practice for later when he is commanding jacked up PT studs and he will need to keep up.

Wish him the best of luck!
 
Thanks all, military parents. It’s definitely an eye-opening and heart-hardening experience for me to learn to be a military mom.

As said, I had no issue with my son being punished for grooming issues. What I did not understand was why, among several cadets having the same issue, only he was called out. Now, I’ve read a few perspectives on this, setting an example as a tactics, “tough love”, etc. All good thoughts and advice 👍 much appreciated!
 
cb7893 said:
For Christmas MSI year, we got DS a very good electric razor. I think he ended up carrying it around in his back pack. Haircuts were his business.

He was often times on the receiving end of criticism from upperclassmen for his insufficient "Hooah". Cadre not so much, because the assignment was something of a reward for having spent so much time deployed in Iraqistan. What he did to deflect them, and I would suggest your DS do the same after he cleans up his grooming, was to be 10 minutes early for EVERYTHING, especially morning PT and rucks. He set a goal of beating them in the rucks and runs. That gets noticed.

That will be good practice for later when he is commanding jacked up PT studs and he will need to keep up.

Wish him the best of luck!
Click to expand...
Thanks! 10 minutes early makes a lot sense.
 
severn said:
... Welcome to the military! Accept it.

* Fort Sam Houston, TX. I attended several conferences there in my career. During my 0630 runs, I often see newly minted medical nurses and doctors cry in the sidewalk like their dog just died. One day I asked one of 'em. She said, "Sir, the Sergeants are screaming at me." Okay.

* Camp McCall, NC. SFQC.
- Patrolling phase. We have two notorious DIs as in deranged instructors. DI1 would wake us up daily, around 0200. Have a formation in front of the flag, and sing the Ballad of the Green Berets, all 3 verses. See video.
One day, DI2 ordered us to conduct a formal military burial complete with taps and honor guards firing three rounds. It turned out that in the middle of the night someone used the bathroom 40 meters short of the required 100 meters from the base camp. So DI2 ordered us to dig up the poop, marched 40 meters and conducted a formal burial ceremony.

- Recon Phase. Summer in NC is extremely hot. After lunch, it was difficult to stay awake in the classroom. So DI1 would stay in the rear with a BB gun. He would shoot anyone nodding off. That's not enough however. DI1 and his best friend DI2 perfected the art of "the flying body." They would let a candidate sleep for about 5 minutes, then nonchalantly pickup the candidate and throw him out the window. It's about a six foot drop. So you wake up during the midair flight. Hello!


Click to expand...
Oh my…
 
NavyHoops said:
It’s called the responsibility of leadership. The more the rank, the more the responsibility and accountability. It’s why there are orders and chain of command. If this is the most stressful thing your DS has encountered during his 1+ years of ROTC… he is doing fine.
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Fortunately, it is. :)
 
FaithIG2022 said:
Thanks! 10 minutes early makes a lot sense.
Click to expand...
In the military, early is on time, on time is late.

One of my earliest “recalibrating one-way discussions” in my earliest military days involved the above concept.

We ALL have stories.
 
And I worried I "helicopter parented" too much and didn't let DSs fall on their faces more.

EMBRACE THE SUCK AND DRIVE ON!

We have all experienced times when we felt unjustly maligned or singled out. Life.
 
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