CAS and the F35- Scathing report on F35

You keep speaking in absolute terms about a future that is anything but. Why, exactly, will the future be COIN (no longer a doctrinal term) to the exclusion of all else? The same was said at the tail end of Vietnam btw.

Remember that each Army division comes with an internal air element that can do for you what the A-10 does, and often better. You can't have the debate in a vacuum.

First, a correction for my earlier post- I meant "can't" afford higher priced jets, not "can."

Second, you are most likely right, we may not see a COIN/Nation building/whatever you want to call it conflict in the near future. FID seems to be increasingly likely though. As you pointed out, the same was said at the tail end of Vietnam. And since Vietnam, combining Grenada, Panama, Iraq x2, and Afghanistan, how much of that was spent fighting for air superiority? Several weeks total? Meanwhile, there are plenty of ongoing FID missions in the Phillipines, northwest Africa, south Africa, southeast Asia, the list goes on.

The A-29 and other similar aircraft are easier to maintain than any jet (or helicopter). They can carry similar payloads (especially compared to an Apache), have longer loiter times, can respond faster, and are easier to train pilots. All desirable traits when working with partner nations.

Not saying its perfect, but I think its important to bring up, especially when we are talking about using the F35 for CAS
 
First, a correction for my earlier post- I meant "can't" afford higher priced jets, not "can."

Second, you are most likely right, we may not see a COIN/Nation building/whatever you want to call it conflict in the near future. FID seems to be increasingly likely though.

As you pointed out, the same was said at the tail end of Vietnam. And since Vietnam, combining Grenada, Panama, Iraq x2, and Afghanistan, how much of that was spent fighting for air superiority? Several weeks total? Meanwhile, there are plenty of ongoing FID missions in the Phillipines, northwest Africa, south Africa, southeast Asia, the list goes on.

I don't think you're quite grasping what FID is. You're conflating it was irregular warfare and UW.

The A-29 and other similar aircraft are easier to maintain than any jet (or helicopter).

You know this from your vast experience in aviation maintenance?

They can carry similar payloads (especially compared to an Apache)have longer loiter times, can respond faster, and are easier to train pilots.

Oh really?

Not saying its perfect, but I think its important to bring up, especially when we are talking about using the F35 for CAS

Bullet can tell you better than anyone that there are numerous reasons every modern Air Force has abandoned low-wing turboprop platforms.
 
Bullet can tell you better than anyone that there are numerous reasons every modern Air Force has abandoned low-wing turboprop platforms.
Well, helicopters and fighter-bombers bracket most capabilities something like an A-29 or AT-6 offer, as well as offering other capabilities. That said, somewhere around a dozen nations operate A-29s. If you can't/don't want to pay for an A-10, Su-25, Tornado, F-16, Alpha Jet, etc, they make some sense.
 
Well, helicopters and fighter-bombers bracket most capabilities something like an A-29 or AT-6 offer, as well as offering other capabilities. That said, somewhere around a dozen nations operate A-29s. If you can't/don't want to pay for an A-10, Su-25, Tornado, F-16, Alpha Jet, etc, they make some sense.

Dozens of countries also operate the T-72 and its variants. That alone is not reason to insert an eclipsed technology into our force structure.

Here is an interesting thought, from a history professor at Fort Leavenworth. In the interwar period, the rush among the militaries and civil industry of the time was to build the next new, better "thing." Whatever it was, the goal was to built a better and more capable version of the technologies at hand. Airplanes. Automobiles. Firearms. The goal was innovation and, by extension, pushing the boundaries of military thought.

Now, we face just the opposite. These days, we are in love with the old stuff. Look at the F-16 lobby. Or the A-10 lobby. Hell, even the sturm and drang over the death of the OH-58D. For every one person who's looking at the future, we have two people clinging to the past and demanding to hold onto old technologies that do nothing to advance our capabilities.

Raimius said it best. The 95% of the things you want an A-10 to do, an attack helicopter does just as well. The same can be said for fighter-bombers. The myth of CAS (I cannot be the only one on here who has dealt with CAS) is that you need this one specific platform to do it or all is lost.
 
Raimius said it best. The 95% of the things you want an A-10 to do, an attack helicopter does just as well. The same can be said for fighter-bombers. The myth of CAS (I cannot be the only one on here who has dealt with CAS) is that you need this one specific platform to do it or all is lost.

I get this idea about platforms other than the A-10 being CAS players… AH-64, F-15, etc… what I don’t get are the acquisition ideas and strategy behind their continued use. For example, is the Army helo “modernization” plan still to retire the Kiowas and reclaim the Apaches from the Guard? And the states will roll over on this one? Is the F-35 such a money suck that we can’t move past these platforms?

I still don't get the idea of the F-35 being a CAS player. Disclaimer -- I see this part of the world through the eyes of a 70's Cold War era tank crewman -- but isn’t some of this about loitering in a high threat area and making gun and missile runs? If you accept the cost risk, what does the F-35 bring to table? 180 rounds, two trigger pulls? Can it carry external iron or sensor pods without compromising stealth? Or is the idea for it to be 100 km away and sneak in to JDAM where we think the bad guys were 5 minutes ago?

I also don't get the idea of the F-35 in any sense being forward-deployed. Support requirements and complexity aside, surely we remember the 2012 attack on Camp Bastion that resulted in the deaths of Marine Lt. Col. Christopher Raible and Marine Sgt. Bradley Atwell and the loss of six Harriers? How can you make this sad, sad story worse? Replace "Harrier" with "Lightning."

Another disclaimer -- I am a UTC shareholder -- so I do have skin in this game. It's in my financial interest for the F-35 to work, at least well enough for Pratt & Whitney to get paid.
 
Dozens of countries also operate the T-72 and its variants. That alone is not reason to insert an eclipsed technology into our force structure.

Here is an interesting thought, from a history professor at Fort Leavenworth. In the interwar period, the rush among the militaries and civil industry of the time was to build the next new, better "thing." Whatever it was, the goal was to built a better and more capable version of the technologies at hand. Airplanes. Automobiles. Firearms. The goal was innovation and, by extension, pushing the boundaries of military thought.

Now, we face just the opposite. These days, we are in love with the old stuff. Look at the F-16 lobby. Or the A-10 lobby. Hell, even the sturm and drang over the death of the OH-58D. For every one person who's looking at the future, we have two people clinging to the past and demanding to hold onto old technologies that do nothing to advance our capabilities.

Raimius said it best. The 95% of the things you want an A-10 to do, an attack helicopter does just as well. The same can be said for fighter-bombers. The myth of CAS (I cannot be the only one on here who has dealt with CAS) is that you need this one specific platform to do it or all is lost.
Haha, yes, light turboprops are not exactly cutting edge tech! I think the theory behind a lot of the "love the old" ideas is that you can afford to have a bunch of lower tech/lower maintenance platforms on a relatively tight budget. (There are limits on this, and I know very well that once you get past a certain life-span, "cheap" aircraft quickly become either unreliable or expensive.)
When you start getting to the 3:1 or better ratios, quantity starts to have a quality all its own. The chances of having a platform available when needed increase quite a bit, which is the first requirement of successful engagement!

The A-10 lobby probably has one of the best arguments because no other aircraft does the A-10's job better than the A-10, from open source stuff, the F-35 won't be able to compete in the CAS game anywhere near what we already have in the A-10. The argument really isn't even that the F-35 is particularly good at CAS, just that we need it for other missions and don't have the money for everything.
 
I get this idea about platforms other than the A-10 being CAS players… AH-64, F-15, etc… what I don’t get are the acquisition ideas and strategy behind their continued use. For example, is the Army helo “modernization” plan still to retire the Kiowas and reclaim the Apaches from the Guard? And the states will roll over on this one? Is the F-35 such a money suck that we can’t move past these platforms?

Well, in many ways, the states cannot justify the expense and difficulty of maintaining an attack helicopter fleet. Think about that. A state guard, whose primary role is to support the needs of the state, is claiming they absolutely cannot part with a platform designed to kill tanks. That's ludicrous. Secondly, the Apache is a terrible burden for a state to own. The maintenance costs are high, blade hour cost is high, and there is almost no opportunity to keep pilots current on gunnery tasks.

Secondly, you're misapplying a term. No one in the Army is calling this the "modernization" plan. It's called ARI. Aviation Restructuring Initiative.

Thirdly, you're missing two key points. One is that the Apache is being continually upgraded. The 64D is now being replaced with the 64E. It's also slated for near-future engine upgrades to what will be the world's most advanced helo turbine power plant. The Apache is far and away the most powerful attack helicopter on the battlefield. Its combination of payloads and targeting systems make it the world leader by a wide margin.

Lastly, that's still not a case of "we can't move past this." The Army's modernization plan is called Future Vertical Lift. The Army is not going to replace the world's best helicopters (which we own in every category) with merely evolutionary platforms. FVL will be a revolution in how we conduct vertical lift operations. The goal is a massive leap forward.

I still don't get the idea of the F-35 being a CAS player. Disclaimer -- I see this part of the world through the eyes of a 70's Cold War era tank crewman -- but isn’t some of this about loitering in a high threat area and making gun and missile runs? If you accept the cost risk, what does the F-35 bring to table? 180 rounds, two trigger pulls? Can it carry external iron or sensor pods without compromising stealth? Or is the idea for it to be 100 km away and sneak in to JDAM where we think the bad guys were 5 minutes ago?[/quote]

For any fixed wing platform but the A-10, the gun is a low payoff weapon. If you're relying on 20mm strafing runs by an F-35 (or an F-15 or an F-16), the wheels have well and truly come off the cart. I can only think of one instance of a gun run by anything other than an A-10. It was a Navy F/A-18 and the results were less than impressive. It's not a primary air-to-mud weapon. If you're dropping a JDAM where you "think" the bad guys were 5 minutes ago, you're doing a crap job as a JTAC/SOTAC/FAC-A. The idea that you're always going to have a fixed-wing aircraft loitering continuously just isn't realistic or true. Far too many platoons and companies. Not nearly enough airplanes. So you're almost always going to be relying on CAS that wasn't there when the trouble popped off.

I also don't get the idea of the F-35 in any sense being forward-deployed. Support requirements and complexity aside, surely we remember the 2012 attack on Camp Bastion that resulted in the deaths of Marine Lt. Col. Christopher Raible and Marine Sgt. Bradley Atwell and the loss of six Harriers? How can you make this sad, sad story worse? Replace "Harrier" with "Lightning."

Relying on an extreme outlier event as the example of why a war fighting machine would be left at home by the Marine Corps is a terribly flimsy argument.

Another disclaimer -- I am a UTC shareholder -- so I do have skin in this game. It's in my financial interest for the F-35 to work, at least well enough for Pratt & Whitney to get paid.

Don't worry, even if it doesn't, Otis is still cranking out elevators.
 
Haha, yes, light turboprops are not exactly cutting edge tech! I think the theory behind a lot of the "love the old" ideas is that you can afford to have a bunch of lower tech/lower maintenance platforms on a relatively tight budget. (There are limits on this, and I know very well that once you get past a certain life-span, "cheap" aircraft quickly become either unreliable or expensive.)
When you start getting to the 3:1 or better ratios, quantity starts to have a quality all its own. The chances of having a platform available when needed increase quite a bit, which is the first requirement of successful engagement!

That argument boils down to "you can much more easily afford the old force you don't want, so go for that." You can buy a hell of a lot more M1 Garands than M4A1s with the same money, but I have yet to see that lobby materialize.

The A-10 lobby probably has one of the best arguments because no other aircraft does the A-10's job better than the A-10, from open source stuff, the F-35 won't be able to compete in the CAS game anywhere near what we already have in the A-10. The argument really isn't even that the F-35 is particularly good at CAS, just that we need it for other missions and don't have the money for everything.

The A-10's job was and always will be the destruction of armored targets on the battlefield. The gun doesn't fire DU shells because ribcages are so bloody tough to penetrate. We're lucky that, in the mountains of Afghanistan, it proved to have an excellent ability to turn people into goo. However, it was in many ways a case of killing a fly with a broadsword. It'll get the job done, sure. But so will a flyswatter. That alone is not an argument to keep the broadsword around.
 
Well, in many ways, the states cannot justify the expense and difficulty of maintaining an attack helicopter fleet. Think about that. A state guard, whose primary role is to support the needs of the state, is claiming they absolutely cannot part with a platform designed to kill tanks. That's ludicrous. Secondly, the Apache is a terrible burden for a state to own. The maintenance costs are high, blade hour cost is high, and there is almost no opportunity to keep pilots current on gunnery tasks.
.

In reality almost 100% national guard funding is federal, a part of the Army budget. As long as National Guard has the force structure, it can claim its share of the Army's budget. So, most state governments like big national guard structure as it brings in a lot of federal dollar. A reasonable ratio is about 20% of a state NG being full timers. So a state with say 5000 national guard structure, about 1000 will be full timers. Most states would like an employer that hires 1000 people in the state.

National guard has a dual mission - federal and state. I am in the minority among national guard officers as to think states shouldn't worry providing what we don't have (I.e if the guard does t have AH 64s, we can't provide them in case of a war. After all, I left the active duty so I don't have to PCS every three years. I will answer the call when my country calls me, but after active duty folks). In case I wasn't clear, I am fine with the big Army taking AH 64s.
 
In reality almost 100% national guard funding is federal, a part of the Army budget. As long as National Guard has the force structure, it can claim its share of the Army's budget. So, most state governments like big national guard structure as it brings in a lot of federal dollar. A reasonable ratio is about 20% of a state NG being full timers. So a state with say 5000 national guard structure, about 1000 will be full timers. Most states would like an employer that hires 1000 people in the state.

National guard has a dual mission - federal and state. I am in the minority among national guard officers as to think states shouldn't worry providing what we don't have (I.e if the guard does t have AH 64s, we can't provide them in case of a war. After all, I left the active duty so I don't have to PCS every three years. I will answer the call when my country calls me, but after active duty folks). In case I wasn't clear, I am fine with the big Army taking AH 64s.

From a Guard perspective, the NG getting more UH-60s is a much better deal for the Guard. And the Army. The Army can train attack aircrews better and maintain their proficiency. The Guard can provide much more value in their state role with more lift assets. In any sane world, this would be a win-win. Then egos got in the way.
 
From a Guard perspective, the NG getting more UH-60s is a much better deal for the Guard. And the Army. The Army can train attack aircrews better and maintain their proficiency. The Guard can provide much more value in their state role with more lift assets. In any sane world, this would be a win-win. Then egos got in the way.

A result of GWOT is that the leadership of National Guard believed and start advocating that the guard is an operational reserve. If I wanted to deploy every three year, I would have stayed on active duty. Of course, most of National Guard leadership are full timers that don't have to juggle civilian and military career like a majority of National Guard soldiers. Trying to get back on track, in a way what the Guard leadership is advocating is similiar to the F35 situation. Through 10 years of war, the Guard has obtained war fighting expertise and proficiencies, so we don't want to lose it, regardless the country needs it or not.

Personal opinion, the Army should be thinking strategically first when dealing with the National Guard instead of dealing with them tatcially. With its political muscle, the Guard can do pretty good in a tactical fight, but it won't do so good in strategic fight. A quick example, the Guard was able to keep the AH 64 for now. The Guard couldn't do anything about transformation and related cuts when brigades converted to BCTs. .
 
Tell me how the DoD can back out. The 22 is all AF, thus they could kill the program, not true for the 35.

Pima,

I am not saying we should back out the F35 program. It's a done deal, I don't think I ever said we should cancel the F35 program. I also think F35 is or will be a very good airplane. I also understand how F35 program started.

I could be totally wrong as I have been wrong before. To me F35 is about feeding and sustaining the military-industrial-political complex. I can't remember the exact title, something like "the fall of Soviet Union," written by a retired general officer, that supposed the root cause of the collapse of USSR as it's overspending on military budget to fight the Cold War. I fear that the America is heading towards the similar path as although our economy is stronger, the combination entitlement and defense spending will lead to collapse of our government.
 
Tell me how the DoD can back out. The 22 is all AF, thus they could kill the program, not true for the 35.

They back out by saying "we are backing out" and not paying. Other countries jumped onto OUR program, and it still remains ours to kill, though the political capital expended to do so would be large. You're confusing "won't" with "can't."
 
Scout,

If you aren't planning to make a lifelong career out of the military, it is our loss.

I can't comment on the soundness of your position on the F35 from a military standpoint, but your points, as well as many of your other posts, display an anti-logrolling, anti-careerist mentality borne of a love for and loyalty to the military.

Hope there are some of you left when DS commissions.
 
Scout,

If you aren't planning to make a lifelong career out of the military, it is our loss.

I can't comment on the soundness of your position on the F35 from a military standpoint, but your points, as well as many of your other posts, display an anti-logrolling, anti-careerist mentality borne of a love for and loyalty to the military.

Hope there are some of you left when DS commissions.

Thanks for the kind words. When all the dust settles, what matters is that we're putting our best product forward. History is littered with examples of countries that didn't innovate and who didn't want to pay for the next big thing--to push the boundaries of capabilities. In 1918, Britain was the world leader in naval aviation. By 1940, they were barely an also-ran. There's a lesson there for us. One among many.
 
I have a question. This is coming from an 18 year old kid who knows next to nothing about AF, having just viewed it from the outside, so please pardon the stupidity of the question. But here it is:
What happens to A-10 pilots now? Are they retrained for other jobs?
Just would like to know for my own personal education.
 
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