Citadel vs. VMI

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Based on spring graduation numbers which are easily verifiable The Citadel does commission more than any SMC, TAMU routinely claims this honor despite numbers to the contrary. Unfortunately no one keeps statistics on how many commission after graduation via LDAC and OCS so the actual totals for each school are not known though it stands to reason that The Citadel probably has as many or more than VMI and thus is ahead in the end.
I love all the cracks about "civilian student body". For the record the only civilians who attend class with cadets are about 60 veterans, many of whom are former cadets called to active duty and returning to finish their degree. Those in the Grad School only attend at night and have no contact with the SCCC. There are also about 70 active duty Marine and Navy personnel attending under MECEP and STA-21.
You forget that Charleston is a large metropolitan area and The Citadel fills a big educational need, hence the Graduate Program; the Evening Undergraduate program only has about 120 students and is limited to those already having an associates degree from local schools. Sorry if we aren't "all military" but doesn't change the quality of the cadet system or education. And they even have real mattresses to sleep on.
 
HDC - I thought VMI had a Corps of Cadets not a student body. And you think it is more than a coincidence that Virginia is a democratic state and VMI gets invited to march in the inaugurations of democratic presidents?
Gee, the travel time might even have something to do with it too.
 
Differences between Citadel and VMI

The Citadel and VMI are both full time military colleges - offer small classes and similar liberal arts and sciences and top ranked engineering programs. Both commission around 40% of their graduating classes into one of the military services - but neither require Cadets to accept a commission. Both have pround military traditions dating to the early 1800s. The Citadel Army ROTC program is the largest on campus, but the NROTC unit has a large program also and is Marine Corps oriented. The Citadel also has a large number of enlisted Marines attending classes in the MECEP program that are assigned to the NROTC unit and help Cadets prepare for commissions.

But - you should choose your college carefully and based on what it offers you academically and treat the military as a secondary consideration. I do a lot of college nights and HS visits representing The Citadel - and if you are seriously looking at a college - any college - the best advice I can give you is to go visit and talk to professors, college admissions officers, and especially students or Cadets. Study their websites for academic programs of interest to you and talk to as many students or Cadets as you can. Decide whether you want to be in the Mountains of Virginia - or the beach/resort town of Charleston, South Carolina.
 
VMI Citadel differences

First, although there may be some similarities between the schools, there are major differences.
1. There was no such thing as the citadel until after 1950, before that, the school was called something else, was divided into 2 campuses, and now is located on the Ashley river.
2. A&M, Va Tech, Norwich, Citadel, N. Ga all have civilian students and cadets. They are great schools, but this is a big difference for life at VMI. In short, there are no civilian night/day/mecep or grad school students at VMI. It's a military college ranked Nationally against much larger schools... including the service academies. The citadel isn't even ranked in the same league.
2. A higher percent of cadets at VMI are commissioned each year. VMI commissions approx 60% and 24% stay in past 20 years.
3. There are famous generals who were graduates of VMI, including the first active duty five-star, General Marshall. Chesty Puller went to VMI and General John Archer LeJeune was VMI's Superintendent after serving as Commandant of the USMC. VMI has also graduated service chiefs of the Army, Air Force and Marine Corps. Not so with the citadel--In fact, what famous general is from the citadel...? Take your time to think about this one... answer: none.
3. Another difference between the schools is the endowments--VMI's is much larger. Also, VMI has graduated Medal of Honor recipients and Rhodes Scholars, the citadel has none.
4. In terms of students, VMI is half the size of the citadel, but the list of VMI accolades is much bigger...
 
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Oh Bullsxxx!

Let me make sure you all understand- and all others who intend to post after this-this thread and this Forum IS NOT GOING TO BECOME some Alumni peeing contest as to whose AlmaMater is better. I'm warning once and one time only- knock it off. If you can't talk about a school on its merits as opposed to some subjective load of Alumni Rah Rah baloney deriding the rival school- stay off the forum and save it for the party when VMI's football team plays The Citadel's for the Shako, because this forum is not the place and it won't be tolerated.

One warning round- don't mistake it for an idle one.
 
thanks Bruno, this bozo is not only classless he doesn't even have his facts straight. At its inception The Citadel was know as The South Carolina Military Academy and had 2 campuses; The Arsenal in Columbia and the Citadel in Charleston. The Arsenal was burned by Shermans forces and never reopened, the schools name was changed from SCMA to The Citadel in 1910. VMI does NOT have a 60% commissioning rate and I challenge him to provide verifiable facts. NAS just go back to your Atari games and stop embarrassing yourself.
 
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JohnPaulJones said:
Can anyone give me any insight into the differences, if any, between the Citadel and VMI?
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DS's research has shown him that unlike VMI, The Citadel offers neither his preferred major nor his varsity sport. This was a major disappointment, because it's a great school -- just not for him. Unless you're a prospective mechanical engineering swimmer, you really cannot go wrong with either school, IMO.
 
VMI Commissioning Numbers and other facts (not stoop poop or alumni rumors)

This argument seems to come up every couple of months so here are some actual numbers reported by the schools themselves to the media, their oversight bodies or internally. There is no reason for any of these numbers to be inaccurate and in some cases; there would probably be some significant fallout if they were.



According to the VMI Board of Visitor reports that are public record, here are some numbers for commissioning at VMI

FY 14 1st Classmen 190 Cadets set to commission (approx. 60%) 110 Army completed LDAC, 34 Navy and Marine (2nd Largest after USNA according to PNS) all from Sep 13 Notes

FY 13 graduates- 52% (reported in MAY 13 notes) 120 Army, 24 AF, 2nd Largest Naval Det (Texas A&M is largest) (All from SEP 12 notes)
% of Cadets seeking Commission in Academic Year '12-13- 57.8%. These numbers differ from graduate press releases due to camp commissions and December graduates.

For point of reference the Citadel has 158 commissions out of 501 which equals about 31.4%

FY 12 graduates- 50% (88 Army, 14 AF, 25 MC, 19 USN)

FY 11 graduates 63% (101 Army, 22 Navy, 34 Marines, 21 AF) of note 6/6 competing for Rated slots May 11 Notes

This gets to an overall commissioning rate of 54% over four years and as stated earlier about 58% pursuing commissions.

Admissions statistics
One other point of information for prospective keydets is the median GPA of this year's Rat Mass is 3.61 and the SAT (M/V) is 1156 (SEP 13 Notes).

Average Citadel profile is GPA of 3.5 and SAT of 1074 (Citadel Press Release AUG 13)

Citadel Admissions Rates were 80% and 33% enrolled (Citadel Press Release AUG 13)
VMI Admission Rates were 47% overall (44 in VA, 50% OOS) (VMI Profile for AUG 13)

I am not a fan of the p!$$ing contest between schools. I would say though that there are differences between the two programs and all the SMCs. That does not mean one is any better than the other or anything but it is a little simplistic to say that they are carbon copies in Lex VA and Charleston SC. With the above numbers, you should consider the VMI Rat mass is optimal 500 and El Cid is 700 so some of the variance comes from the number of slots to fill. These numbers in no way predict success at the respective institutions. I can also say as someone who works a bit with New Cadet Recruiting as an Alumni and was the Regimental Recruiting Officer (S5 LT) my 1st Class year that I saw several cases of folks who struggle pre-VMI who excelled in that environment and also saw cases of gung-ho Ranger wannabes and National Merit Scholars making the call home within 6 hours of Meet Your Cadre.



I am a FG Officer in the Army with four combat tours in light infantry and artillery units and have taught lieutenants in BOLC and Captains in CCC as well as supervised over a dozen lieutenants from all commissioning sources. Bottom line, great officers come from both these institutions, the other four SMCs and USMA as well as ROTC and OCS. I doubt this will help do anything but can never understand why all these numbers are thrown around when they are readily accessible.
 
Good Numbers--how about more

Good to see the numbers--thanks. Would be good to see endowment figures, etc.
Cheers
 
emwvmi01 said:
This argument seems to come up every couple of months so here are some actual numbers reported by the schools themselves to the media, their oversight bodies or internally. There is no reason for any of these numbers to be inaccurate and in some cases; there would probably be some significant fallout if they were.



According to the VMI Board of Visitor reports that are public record, here are some numbers for commissioning at VMI

FY 14 1st Classmen 190 Cadets set to commission (approx. 60%) 110 Army completed LDAC, 34 Navy and Marine (2nd Largest after USNA according to PNS) all from Sep 13 Notes

FY 13 graduates- 52% (reported in MAY 13 notes) 120 Army, 24 AF, 2nd Largest Naval Det (Texas A&M is largest) (All from SEP 12 notes)
% of Cadets seeking Commission in Academic Year '12-13- 57.8%. These numbers differ from graduate press releases due to camp commissions and December graduates.

For point of reference the Citadel has 158 commissions out of 501 which equals about 31.4%

FY 12 graduates- 50% (88 Army, 14 AF, 25 MC, 19 USN)

FY 11 graduates 63% (101 Army, 22 Navy, 34 Marines, 21 AF) of note 6/6 competing for Rated slots May 11 Notes

This gets to an overall commissioning rate of 54% over four years and as stated earlier about 58% pursuing commissions.

Admissions statistics
One other point of information for prospective keydets is the median GPA of this year's Rat Mass is 3.61 and the SAT (M/V) is 1156 (SEP 13 Notes).

Average Citadel profile is GPA of 3.5 and SAT of 1074 (Citadel Press Release AUG 13)

Citadel Admissions Rates were 80% and 33% enrolled (Citadel Press Release AUG 13)
VMI Admission Rates were 47% overall (44 in VA, 50% OOS) (VMI Profile for AUG 13)

I am not a fan of the p!$$ing contest between schools. I would say though that there are differences between the two programs and all the SMCs. That does not mean one is any better than the other or anything but it is a little simplistic to say that they are carbon copies in Lex VA and Charleston SC. With the above numbers, you should consider the VMI Rat mass is optimal 500 and El Cid is 700 so some of the variance comes from the number of slots to fill. These numbers in no way predict success at the respective institutions. I can also say as someone who works a bit with New Cadet Recruiting as an Alumni and was the Regimental Recruiting Officer (S5 LT) my 1st Class year that I saw several cases of folks who struggle pre-VMI who excelled in that environment and also saw cases of gung-ho Ranger wannabes and National Merit Scholars making the call home within 6 hours of Meet Your Cadre.


I am a FG Officer in the Army with four combat tours in light infantry and artillery units and have taught lieutenants in BOLC and Captains in CCC as well as supervised over a dozen lieutenants from all commissioning sources. Bottom line, great officers come from both these institutions, the other four SMCs and USMA as well as ROTC and OCS. I doubt this will help do anything but can never understand why all these numbers are thrown around when they are readily accessible.
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Thanks very much emwvmi01 - you nailed this:thumb:. All of these schools are clearly different places - different strengths, different weakness, different feel. Is any one better or worse than the other? That is a subjective call that is best made by the individual after weighing the differences between them and determining what their goals and interests really are.

I would second your comments as well about some very gungho Rats bailing within a very short period of time - That's been true for a long time- we had a guy bail the 2d night of my Rat year, hid in the woods for an overnight before being found Hitchhiking on Rt 11 south of Lexington- on his way home. I know when we dropped off my son, I ran into kids who had bailed the first night and were in the Holiday Inn Express parking lot with their parents on the way home the next morning. Too much focus either on the uniform/parade thing or on making Daddy happy with their choice, and not enough honest assessment of themselves and what they are embarking upon-though in the age of overnight visits for prospective cadets and YouTube, things certainly shouldn't be a surprise. Bottom line there- you have to want to be there and you have to understand that the whole point is "embrace the suck" (to use someone else's colorful and accurate catch phrase). It's really not supposed to be fun at first, though it grows on you as you get tighter and tighter with your Brother Rats. As the saying goes- "it's a better place to be from than at " :wink: If you don't really understand that reality upfront and if you don't have the desire and pride to make a commitment to yourself to give it a year- then IMHO you really just should go elsewhere because you will be giving yourself and those who care for you a lot of heartache not to mention wasting a lot of time and money.
 
not to keep beating this to death but some misinformation here. VMI did not commission 120 Army Officers at graduation, that number included PROJECTED commissions during summer from those attending LDAC, The Citadel also commissions additional officers into Army and Marine Corps from OCS and LDAC but not included as projections in spring commissioning and I don't know that they ever report these numbers. Citadel PROJECTED total Army commissions for this year was around 110 and given that the detachment is almost as big as VMIs entire corps it would be hard to imagine them having fewer officers commissioned than VMI. I guess we can keep throwing numbers around ad infinitum and not settle this argument.
 
Numbers

Here are a few more numbers which highlight the differences between these two great schools:

Cadets-----------------VMI----------------------Citadel
-------------------1,500 cadets----------2,500 cadets, 1100 non-cadets/civilians

Endowment-------------VMI----------------------Citadel
-------------------$330.2 Million---------------$270 Million
 
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Since some of the Alums on here seem to insist in playing one upsmanship- I am closing this thread. Hopefully the OP didn't give up long ago.
 
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