Class Rank

E

ELW2001

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2019
Messages
57
I have been looking around other SA threads and I have found answers specific to them, but nothing regarding USAFA. My high school does not rank, so does USAFA assign a rank based on my SAT percentile?

Any answer is appreciated,

ELW
 
My understanding from reading available materials is they like to get a program description from your school. They then estimate your class rank based on your reported GPA against GPA of students from similar schools. If that's right, then they could reasonably estimate a class rank within a few percent.

Variables can complicated matters. For example, some schools have might have a CAT or STEM program attracting students that tend to maintain a higher GPA than a random sample. If the Academy is aware of that, they could take it into account.

My DS is at 16 percent class rank, but is in an IB program of 130 seniors out of 372 total seniors in his graduating class. He's at position 60 at his school. Holding a 4.4 GPA (3.89 unweighted). Highest GPA in our district is 4.46 (about a million citizens). So I have no idea how much class rank weighs, but there are so many different variables it's very hard to make any real comparison of ability using that.

I like numbers. What I'd really love to see are raw scores of candidates offered a slot including SAT/ACT, CFA scores, GPA, class rank, nomination source including MOC District, etc... Just everything except names. That would be a fun dataset.

Best of luck!
 
caernarvonkjaer said:
My understanding from reading available materials is they like to get a program description from your school. They then estimate your class rank based on your reported GPA against GPA of students from similar schools. If that's right, then they could reasonably estimate a class rank within a few percent.

Variables can complicated matters. For example, some schools have might have a CAT or STEM program attracting students that tend to maintain a higher GPA than a random sample. If the Academy is aware of that, they could take it into account.

My DS is at 16 percent class rank, but is in an IB program of 130 seniors out of 372 total seniors in his graduating class. He's at position 60 at his school. Holding a 4.4 GPA (3.89 unweighted). Highest GPA in our district is 4.46 (about a million citizens). So I have no idea how much class rank weighs, but there are so many different variables it's very hard to make any real comparison of ability using that.

I like numbers. What I'd really love to see are raw scores of candidates offered a slot including SAT/ACT, CFA scores, GPA, class rank, nomination source including MOC District, etc... Just everything except names. That would be a fun dataset.

Best of luck!
Click to expand...
Listing the MOC District is just a Google search away from revealing the identity of the forum member. For this reason, it is not allowed by the moderators.
 
Not sure what they do...but neither my USAFA grad nor my current C2C had a class rank. So USAFA figures something out! Concentrate on your grades and other credentials and don't stress about class rank if your school doesn't use it.
 
Delta Romeo said:
Listing the MOC District is just a Google search away from revealing the identity of the forum member. For this reason, it is not allowed by the moderators.
Click to expand...
I've heard this said before but after considering the scenario, I don't see how to identify a candidate from an MOC nominator. I doubt the moderators would make this assertion if it were not correct, but if anyone understands how it could be accomplished I would appreciate an explanation. Like, maybe some MOC's announce their nominations, including primaries? I don't think I've ever found a list like that on the web, but it's possible.

Anyway, curious to hear your thoughts.
 
Very much obliged and very helpful, aircat. Clearly some, if not most, senators/congressmen post their nominees. So going from a posted list of nominees to a nomination entry here on the forums still seems a pretty big gap.

This is completely fictional but is a valid example.

1) LoginName / Self / LOA / 06-Feb-2019 / Accepted / KY / Rand Paul / Direct Appointment

Then go back to Rand Paul's list of nominees - How would listing the nomination source improve a snoopy third party's determination to identify which nominee actually got the nomination? I can see how it would limit the possible candidates down to just the list from Paul and not include Mcconnel's. Though honestly, I can't find where Mcconnel posted his list as Paul did (I searched his senate press releases, which is where Paul did his, and online).

One thing this does do that perhaps might be a more legitimate concern is indicate to applicants with the same nominating source that their odds of receiving an appointment just went down. That's not a privacy issue so much as a kindness to overly anxious applicants. As I've seen many times stated in these forums, it's not over until you get the final letter so indicating.

Still, if there's a hole in my logic or maybe a past real situation that clarifies the moderators' concerns better than I've been able to understand, I absolutely invite further explanation/speculation. An abundance of caution, liability avoidance, or even extraordinary respect for privacy all seem like legitimate concerns considering it's their forum board. Thanks!
 
caernarvonkjaer said:
Very much obliged and very helpful, aircat. Clearly some, if not most, senators/congressmen post their nominees. So going from a posted list of nominees to a nomination entry here on the forums still seems a pretty big gap.

This is completely fictional but is a valid example.

1) LoginName / Self / LOA / 06-Feb-2019 / Accepted / KY / Rand Paul / Direct Appointment

Then go back to Rand Paul's list of nominees - How would listing the nomination source improve a snoopy third party's determination to identify which nominee actually got the nomination? I can see how it would limit the possible candidates down to just the list from Paul and not include Mcconnel's. Though honestly, I can't find where Mcconnel posted his list as Paul did (I searched his senate press releases, which is where Paul did his, and online).

One thing this does do that perhaps might be a more legitimate concern is indicate to applicants with the same nominating source that their odds of receiving an appointment just went down. That's not a privacy issue so much as a kindness to overly anxious applicants. As I've seen many times stated in these forums, it's not over until you get the final letter so indicating.

Still, if there's a hole in my logic or maybe a past real situation that clarifies the moderators' concerns better than I've been able to understand, I absolutely invite further explanation/speculation. An abundance of caution, liability avoidance, or even extraordinary respect for privacy all seem like legitimate concerns considering it's their forum board. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Not every MOC has a full slate of ten. Also, what makes you think the MOC won’t then post the name of the appointee?
 
caernarvonkjaer said:
Very much obliged and very helpful, aircat. Clearly some, if not most, senators/congressmen post their nominees. So going from a posted list of nominees to a nomination entry here on the forums still seems a pretty big gap.

This is completely fictional but is a valid example.

1) LoginName / Self / LOA / 06-Feb-2019 / Accepted / KY / Rand Paul / Direct Appointment

Then go back to Rand Paul's list of nominees - How would listing the nomination source improve a snoopy third party's determination to identify which nominee actually got the nomination? I can see how it would limit the possible candidates down to just the list from Paul and not include Mcconnel's. Though honestly, I can't find where Mcconnel posted his list as Paul did (I searched his senate press releases, which is where Paul did his, and online).

One thing this does do that perhaps might be a more legitimate concern is indicate to applicants with the same nominating source that their odds of receiving an appointment just went down. That's not a privacy issue so much as a kindness to overly anxious applicants. As I've seen many times stated in these forums, it's not over until you get the final letter so indicating.

Still, if there's a hole in my logic or maybe a past real situation that clarifies the moderators' concerns better than I've been able to understand, I absolutely invite further explanation/speculation. An abundance of caution, liability avoidance, or even extraordinary respect for privacy all seem like legitimate concerns considering it's their forum board. Thanks!
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with being nice to anxious candidates or liability. It is simply the common sense of not providing too much personal information on the internet.

While the singular post of which district a candidate is from may not be enough to determine who someone is, when combined with other posts from the same person it becomes much easier. How many "What are my chances" posts are on here from candidates that list every EC and sport that they participate in? Candidates often mention their conference or state qualifications in a particular sport. How hard is it to look up the 2018 Nevada High School Boys Basketball all-state team and see which district or conference each named player is from? How hard is it to find Wisconsin Boys State attendee lists and what offices each person held? (Just random examples, by the way.)

As I have mentioned before, we as moderators get requests quite often from previous candidates wanting to redact or delete their posts or even entire accounts. Sometimes they don't ask for 5 years after they have been on the forum. That tells me that they are doing some cleaning of their web trail, often as the result of a security screening on active duty. I am simply trying to remind people to think about what they are doing.

While the moderators certainly do not forbid posting this information, I will continue to counsel against it. Parents of teens should be looking at what they have public online, anyway.

Stealth_81
 
The mosaic theory of intelligence applies.

People’s identities can be teased out by culling data from various sources, for purposes benign or malign.

If they are posting here in presumed anonymous fashion, but include unique bits of info in a “stats” post (football team captain, Eagle Scout, Girls State office, etc.), indicate their gender in their SAF profile, mention other personal details such as ethnicity, give a hint about who they are in their screen name, talk about their small Christian school with a lacrosse team, are featured in local media articles on accomplishments or sports participation, have public social media profiles, have accomplishments described in online school papers or websites, it’s a matter of reverse engineering from a posted list of nominees or appointees.

It really only matters if someone assumes they have 100% anonymity, and then makes unguarded comments here, perhaps with unintended tone or easily misinterpreted meaning, that could come back to haunt them.
 
Stealth_81 said:
While the singular post of which district a candidate is from may not be enough to determine who someone is, when combined with other posts from the same person it becomes much easier.
Click to expand...

This.

My son was outed at USNA because they figured out who his father is on this site. And much like Capt MJ told me many months before it was discovered - it will lead to him being teased.

My son owned it and said my heart is in the right place - he knows I support him and his company.
 
Stealth_81 said:
It has nothing to do with being nice to anxious candidates or liability. It is simply the common sense of not providing too much personal information on the internet.

While the singular post of which district a candidate is from may not be enough to determine who someone is, when combined with other posts from the same person it becomes much easier. How many "What are my chances" posts are on here from candidates that list every EC and sport that they participate in? Candidates often mention their conference or state qualifications in a particular sport. How hard is it to look up the 2018 Nevada High School Boys Basketball all-state team and see which district or conference each named player is from? How hard is it to find Wisconsin Boys State attendee lists and what offices each person held? (Just random examples, by the way.)

As I have mentioned before, we as moderators get requests quite often from previous candidates wanting to redact or delete their posts or even entire accounts. Sometimes they don't ask for 5 years after they have been on the forum. That tells me that they are doing some cleaning of their web trail, often as the result of a security screening on active duty. I am simply trying to remind people to think about what they are doing.

While the moderators certainly do not forbid posting this information, I will continue to counsel against it. Parents of teens should be looking at what they have public online, anyway.

Stealth_81
Click to expand...
I see your point, Stealth_81. You get a fair number of requests to redact and cautioning against posting personally identifying information both makes your life simpler (fewer requests) and can avoid unforeseen problems for the poster. It sounds like you're saying that posting this information is not, in fact, disallowed by forum moderators but rather good advice to help participants avoid future difficulties. Sounds like you have the best interest of the community at heart. Thanks for the explanation.
 
Capt MJ said:
The mosaic theory of intelligence applies.

People’s identities can be teased out by culling data from various sources, for purposes benign or malign.

If they are posting here in presumed anonymous fashion, but include unique bits of info in a “stats” post (football team captain, Eagle Scout, Girls State office, etc.), indicate their gender in their SAF profile, mention other personal details such as ethnicity, give a hint about who they are in their screen name, talk about their small Christian school with a lacrosse team, are featured in local media articles on accomplishments or sports participation, have public social media profiles, have accomplishments described in online school papers or websites, it’s a matter of reverse engineering from a posted list of nominees or appointees.

It really only matters if someone assumes they have 100% anonymity, and then makes unguarded comments here, perhaps with unintended tone or easily misinterpreted meaning, that could come back to haunt them.
Click to expand...
You're right, for sure. I don't think I've posted much online that I'd be embarrassed about, but there's probably some. I don't assume an online persona different from who I am in reality. The same occasionally stupid stuff I'm capable of saying in person is likely the occasional stupid thing I might say online. One important point to note though is that I'd own either. As one poster above correctly notes, a bit of teasing tends to be a common consequence. I can see the value of anonymous posting. My one little problem with it is sort of what you're pointing out - very little online is completely anonymous. The best way I can find in dealing with the question of anonymity is to assume there is none. Anyway, I apologize for hijacking the intent of the original thread, that wasn't my purpose. My point was that the collection and analysis of appointment-related data would be helpful in understanding the process. Thanks!
 
Anyone seen the show Catfish? Posts here make me think of that. And even though it’s diverted away from OP’s statement, it’s still a good reminder. There really is no anonymity anymore. Everyone really is just a few clicks away from who they really are.....
 
caernarvonkjaer said:
My understanding from reading available materials is they like to get a program description from your school. They then estimate your class rank based on your reported GPA against GPA of students from similar schools. If that's right, then they could reasonably estimate a class rank within a few percent.

Variables can complicated matters. For example, some schools have might have a CAT or STEM program attracting students that tend to maintain a higher GPA than a random sample. If the Academy is aware of that, they could take it into account.

My DS is at 16 percent class rank, but is in an IB program of 130 seniors out of 372 total seniors in his graduating class. He's at position 60 at his school. Holding a 4.4 GPA (3.89 unweighted). Highest GPA in our district is 4.46 (about a million citizens). So I have no idea how much class rank weighs, but there are so many different variables it's very hard to make any real comparison of ability using that.

I like numbers. What I'd really love to see are raw scores of candidates offered a slot including SAT/ACT, CFA scores, GPA, class rank, nomination source including MOC District, etc... Just everything except names. That would be a fun dataset.

Best of luck!
Click to expand...
I am with you... the data would be interesting to see... that said, I have always been told that they accept/offer appointments based on the whole person. Therefore, the numbers would not perfectly reflect life experiences, jobs, leadership positions and the variables that are harder to predict how they will impact the candidates overall evaluation to be a successful SA candidate and officer.
 
AFBoyMom said:
I am with you... the data would be interesting to see... that said, I have always been told that they accept/offer appointments based on the whole person. Therefore, the numbers would not perfectly reflect life experiences, jobs, leadership positions and the variables that are harder to predict how they will impact the candidates overall evaluation to be a successful SA candidate and officer.
Click to expand...
For numbers junkies, whole people ARE numbers! But seriously, I saw a post a few days ago in, I think, the LEAD sub thread, where some folks volunteered a bunch of well formatted stats including academics, CFA and more. Honestly, having seen some good graphs by aircat recently, I can imagine some decent analysis giving a much clearer picture even without info like nomination source, state, or other potentially identifying info. There are a lot of "what are my chances" questions this time of year - I could see that being helpful for.
 
Delta Romeo said:
Listing the MOC District is just a Google search away from revealing the identity of the forum member. For this reason, it is not allowed by the moderators.
Click to expand...
Maybe in some cases. Not a single Rep or Senator in our state has announced their noms and none of the appointments have been announced either.
 
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