Controversy of Cadet Group Photo -- Reactions from West Pointers?

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It's been my understanding that the Old Barracks used in this form--PHOTO OPS- were done in respect to clubs/company/sports/staff.. ect.. organized groups. Is this true? It's been a long time and things may have changed.
 
scoutpilot said:
LOL.

Do you dispute that the overwhelming number of unjustified police shootings have been black males? I mean, it's not even a discussion at this point. It's statistical fact.
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I would like to see those statistics.
 
scoutpilot said:
Google is your obliging friend.
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When you say something is a fact, you have to show the statistics.

And, no one in that photo is disenfranchised. They've been able to vote from 2-7 years. Their parents (provided they've voted in the US their entire lives) have not been disenfranchised. Their grandparents have not likely been disenfranchised.

I'm confused how that's a talking point in this discussion.
 
LineInTheSand said:
When you say something is a fact, you have to show the statistics.

And, no one in that photo is disenfranchised. They've been able to vote from 2-7 years. Their parents (provided they've voted in the US their entire lives) have not been disenfranchised. Their grandparents have not likely been disenfranchised.

I'm confused how that's a talking point in this discussion.
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Nothing about this stance shocks me in the least.

If you're interested in the facts, go find them. I don't have to do anything. The numbers don't change if I don't provide them to you. If you choose to remain uninformed, that's your prerogative.
 
If they were doing it to say "Beyonce", perhaps they were agreeing with the lyrics and the message behind her Formation song (check out the music video on YouTube; warning, it is explicit). If so, they gave their motives away as the song, according to Genius Lyrics, “Formation” is a Black Power anthem, a fitting contribution to Black History Month and an important conversation piece in the Black Lives Matter movement. The song was released one day after what would have been Trayvon Martin’s 21st birthday and one day before what would have been Sandra Bland’s 29th birthday. Martin and Bland’s deaths are focal points of Black Lives Matter.

All in all, those cadets showed poor judgement and IMHO, I think they knew exactly what they were doing. If the investigation ties them to this sentiment, they should be reprimanded. This type of solidarity has no place in the military. It is just a reflection of the leadership from the very top (Obama) and his quest to divide the nation even more. His trickle down chip on the shoulder has done more to divide this country by race than any other time in our history. We have gone backwards in regards to race since he began his agenda. And it is going exactly according to his plan to conquer and divide us all.
 
You're going to see what you want to see in this photo. These Cadets who maybe graduating in three weeks missed the mark about Army Leadership and their role in it. Take a page from Army Football. Each team member is hand selected from all parts of our country to represent the "Corp of Cadets." Every time they bear the football uniform on their backs they give up their individualism for the team. You don't see the color of their skin, their individual talent or their high school career stats. You see a Team, Army Football. They give up who they are for the Army, For the Corp, For the Team. Hell they don't even have their names on their shoulders.

I've read numerous articles about how WP needs to catch up to current times, Cadet life is antiquated, it needs to be more diverse (modern term for affirmative action) Army leadership needs to change and incorporate more activism. All of these view points are from the outside looking in and have no idea the militaries greatest dirty secret that many of its mission are humanitarian based. Civilians will never understand until they commit themselves to wear the uniform and be of service.

Push Hard, Press Forward
 
tug_boat said:
You're going to see what you want to see in this photo. These Cadets who maybe graduating in three weeks missed the mark about Army Leadership and their role in it. Take a page from Army Football. Each team member is hand selected from all parts of our country to represent the "Corp of Cadets." Every time they bear the football uniform on their backs they give up their individualism for the team. You don't see the color of their skin, their individual talent or their high school career stats. You see a Team, Army Football. They give up who they are for the Army, For the Corp, For the Team. Hell they don't even have their names on their shoulders.

I've read numerous articles about how WP needs to catch up to current times, Cadet life is antiquated, it needs to be more diverse (modern term for affirmative action) Army leadership needs to change and incorporate more activism. All of these view points are from the outside looking in and have no idea the militaries greatest dirty secret that many of its mission are humanitarian based. Civilians will never understand until they commit themselves to wear the uniform and be of service.

Push Hard, Press Forward
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That cantankerous young fellow's not going to like this one...
 
scoutpilot said:
Nothing about this stance shocks me in the least.

If you're interested in the facts, go find them. I don't have to do anything. The numbers don't change if I don't provide them to you. If you choose to remain uninformed, that's your prerogative.
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So just to be clear, you establish that it's widely accepted and statistically available, but don't actually have the statistics.

And to be clear you aren't contending that anyone in the photo is disenfranchised.

Now, so I'm clear, I don't really care. I'm not here to condemn a group of West Point cadets. I'm not here to excuse them. I don't care. I first saw this on LinkedIn, when a black Coast Guard Academy grad applauded than did making it four years through West Point but also reminded them making political statements in uniform was not appropriate. That's true. Although from the photo I saw I wasn't sure what kind of statement was being made.

At the end of the day, it makes no difference. Either people are blowing it up, but they'll enter an Army that has the right perspective or people are right to take offense and they'll enter and Army where officers will make excuses for them. Independent of how that shakes out, I don't care. The Army has bigger problems than this photo. It also have more prominent things to be proud of than this photo. And I have far more important things to deal with than the conduct of West Point cadets (I believe the Army pays people to worry about that).
 
LineInTheSand said:
So just to be clear, you establish that it's widely accepted and statistically available, but don't actually have the statistics.
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I am amused when people say "just to be clear" and then state something that was never said or implied. I said I'm not going to serve up a ton of data that any informed person can easily find to you. That in no way affects whether I possess such information, or the veracity of it. If you're not interested enough to have encountered it already or to type four or five words into Google to independently verify it, then you're probably not going to bring much to the discussion besides opinion anyway.

Nevertheless, here's a representative tidbit:

"Race remains the most volatile flash point in any accounting of police shootings. Although black men make up only 6 percent of the U.S. population, they account for 40 percent of the unarmed men shot to death by police this year, The Post’s database shows. In the majority of cases in which police shot and killed a person who had attacked someone with a weapon or brandished a gun, the person who was shot was white. But a hugely disproportionate number — 3 in 5 — of those killed after exhibiting less threatening behavior were black or Hispanic."
-WaPo Dec 2015

And to be clear you aren't contending that anyone in the photo is disenfranchised.
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Had I claimed they were disenfranchised, this would be a scathing rejoineder. However I made no such claim. Instead I said they live in a society that continues to attempt to disenfranchise minorities (i.e. their people) with new laws to combat nonexistent voter fraud. Do we suppose that that point is missed on 16 young women who raised a fist in a photo? Probably no more than the irony of living in a barracks named for a turncoat general who fought to preserve a rebellion built on the economic right and imperative of keeping people who look like them as property.

Now, so I'm clear, I don't really care.I'm not here to condemn a group of West Point cadets. I'm not here to excuse them. I don't care. I first saw this on LinkedIn, when a black Coast Guard Academy grad applauded than did making it four years through West Point but also reminded them making political statements in uniform was not appropriate. That's true. Although from the photo I saw I wasn't sure what kind of statement was being made.

At the end of the day, it makes no difference. Either people are blowing it up, but they'll enter an Army that has the right perspective or people are right to take offense and they'll enter and Army where officers will make excuses for them. Independent of how that shakes out, I don't care. The Army has bigger problems than this photo. It also have more prominent things to be proud of than this photo. And I have far more important things to deal with than the conduct of West Point cadets (I believe the Army pays people to worry about that).
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Agreed. Tempest in a teapot.
 
"The Post's database."


Stopped right there. And I have yet to see a claim for needlessness. Use of force is authorized, per the use of force continuum when there is a threat of perceived threat. Independent of the fact that someone was or was not armed, was there a belief that they were?

A more interesting breakdown would be of the socio-economic variety.



As far as disenfranchisement goes, you offer no evidence that these women are subject to it. Instead you paint them as victims of a society seeking to disenfranchise them in the name of ending voter fraud (which does exist). And how? Voter ID?

My minority girlfriend votes, and to my knowledge hasn't felt a whisper of disenfranchisement (and to take it one more step, a naturalized minority). We're actually surprised more documentation isn't required.

I find it interesting that you would find so many reasons to paint them victims, where I doubt they'd paint themselves that way. And I find it interesting a fellow officer, albeit a black male academy grad (no doubt in your mind disenfranchised and targeted by police) would take issue with any kind of "statement" made in uniform.

But like I said, I don't care. People have made statements in the past. They've thrown their medals over the White House fence only to one day serve as Secretary of State. They've done illegal drugs in uniform, acted as mules across borders and worn the uniform incorrectly. There's not a cadet or midshipman who hasn't worn some uniform item the wrong way just to have fun, look cool or make a statement. And I have yet to see a Coast Guard wedding that doesn't end with people opening the collars of their dress whites or taking some kind of "Civil War" pose photo with their hands in their buttons (I've certainly done it).

I haven't looked at whatever the statement photo is. I thought the alternative one above looked cool. I don't care if they aren't at attention or have their swords across their backs (I've had more than one classmate break his sword trying to sword fight... An expensive mistake).
 
LineInTheSand said:
"The Post's database."


Stopped right there.
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The plaintive cry of the intellectually intractable, ignoring good data because you don't like the source. Welcome to America in 2016.

As far as disenfranchisement goes, you offer no evidence that these women are subject to it. Instead you paint them as victims of a society seeking to disenfranchise them in the name of ending voter fraud (which does exist). And how? Voter ID?
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I painted them as nothing more than young women keenly aware of how a powerful and vocal portion of American society views their kind.

My minority girlfriend votes, and to my knowledge hasn't felt a whisper of disenfranchisement (and to take it one more step, a naturalized minority). We're actually surprised more documentation isn't required.
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Bravo for her, but anecdotes are meaningless in this case.

I find it interesting that you would find so many reasons to paint them victims, where I doubt they'd paint themselves that way. And I find it interesting a fellow officer, albeit a black male academy grad (no doubt in your mind disenfranchised and targeted by police) would take issue with any kind of "statement" made in uniform.
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I don't see anyone painting them as victims. Understanding why 16 young women would identify with Beyoncé's message that a black woman is powerful and can do anything she wants isn't difficult when the context of our society is considered. Your stance thus far has basically been "their concerns aren't real because LOL I DON'T SEE IT." That's hardly up to your intellectual standard.

But like I said, I don't care. People have made statements in the past. They've thrown their medals over the White House fence only to one day serve as Secretary of State. They've done illegal drugs in uniform, acted as mules across borders and worn the uniform incorrectly. There's not a cadet or midshipman who hasn't worn some uniform item the wrong way just to have fun, look cool or make a statement. And I have yet to see a Coast Guard wedding that doesn't end with people opening the collars of their dress whites or taking some kind of "Civil War" pose photo with their hands in their buttons (I've certainly done it).

I haven't looked at whatever the statement photo is. I thought the alternative one above looked cool. I don't care if they aren't at attention or have their swords across their backs (I've had more than one classmate break his sword trying to sword fight... An expensive mistake).
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If this thread tells us anything, it's that you care.
 
scoutpilot said:
The plaintive cry of the intellectually intractable, ignoring good data because you don't like the source. Welcome to America in 2016.


I painted them as nothing more than young women keenly aware of how a powerful and vocal portion of American society views their kind.


Bravo for her, but anecdotes are meaningless in this case.


I don't see anyone painting them as victims. Understanding why 16 young women would identify with Beyoncé's message that a black woman is powerful and can do anything she wants isn't difficult when the context of our society is considered. Your stance thus far has basically been "their concerns aren't real because LOL I DON'T SEE IT." That's hardly up to your intellectual standard.


If this thread tells us anything, it's that you care.
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Trusting data from a source you like... The Art of Facebook "Liking" 2016. You have the source data I assume.
 
Are these really their concerns or are you adding meaning? Where are they stating these concerns? Or is this all third party commentary?
 
scoutpilot said:
LOL.

Do you dispute that the overwhelming number of unjustified police shootings have been black males? I mean, it's not even a discussion at this point. It's statistical fact.
Click to expand...

In a year-long study, The Washington Post found that the kind of incidents that have ignited protests in many U.S. communities — most often, white police officers killing unarmed black men — represent less than 4 percent of fatal police shootings.

another article which gets into some detail:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...e-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/?page=all
 
Looking at this from another angle...

These same officers (in fact, all of the cadets) may likely run into something similar from their assigned units once they hit the "real" Army. At least I can confirm I did as a USMC officer. They may encounter cliques that become divisive, underground associations, individual/ group political statements, actions/ words that have "double meaning", etc.

How West Point and their peers handle this will set the standard by which they will act in the future. Regardless of the outcome surrounding these pictures, I believe the majority will learn something.

Side note: I am glad that there was no social media to worry about when I hit the fleet. I imagine it would have been quite different if my Platoon could search and find photo's of some of the things I did!
 
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