Does Pursuing a Commission Make Sense for Someone in an Undergrad Aviation Program?

[franknd]

Common, and well-taken, advice here is that one should not count on obtaining an aviation billet in pursuing a commission. So the follow-on question is whether it makes sense for someone in an undergraduate aviation program (like, for example, Embry-Riddle, University of North Dakota, Oklahoma State, etc.) to pursue a commission. Note well, while I am posting this in the ROTC sub-forum, that's mostly for eyeball reasons. If a different source of commission makes more sense, I'd be interested to hear about that as well.

Finally, to pre-empt this suggestion, assume that USAFA (or other SA) isn't an option.

 

[Lucy]

Someone may know…better than I but my brother commissioned naval aviation via OCS after graduation. I believe OCS is specific unlike NROTC. So if you want a specific service selection like aviation or subs you apply for OCS for that branching. In NROTC, you get what you get. Some get pulled to SWO when they want Aviation.

 

[franknd]

Someone may know…better than I but my brother commissioned naval aviation via OCS after graduation. I believe OCS is specific unlike NROTC. So if you want a specific service selection like aviation or subs you apply for OCS for that branching. In NROTC, you get what you get. Some get pulled to SWO when they want Aviation.

Right, that is an option. Problem is that there's no way to know until you've finished school what options, if any, are available. Though that raises another question particular to OCS/OTS, and that's whether prior civilian pilot training is considered a "plus" for selection purposes, and to what degree. Also, there's no educational finance benefit to it, at least that I'm aware of.

 

[FastFood44]

Do you mean just pursue a commission in general...? So much more info needed... do they want to be an officer in general? Or is their goal to fly private afterwards? Confused on what is being asked.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

Right, that is an option. Problem is that there's no way to know until you've finished school what options, if any, are available. Though that raises another question particular to OCS/OTS, and that's whether prior civilian pilot training is considered a "plus" for selection purposes, and to what degree. Also, there's no educational finance benefit to it, at least that I'm aware of.

I'll send you a PM this week about a few aspects of your original post that you may or may not find helpful. On this specific note, couple of thoughts... Overall agree on no real way of "knowing" you're on your way to flight school and a flight position. Marines and Army have "guaranteed aviation" contracts so if you qualify/ meet standards / pass a flight physical etc. then you could have some sense that you are on-track to go to flight school. Navy option NROTC, Air force ROTC though - you really don't know until you know. OCS does have contracts too for Marines at-least for flight positions. I'm interested too in what weight prior civilian pilot training is considered a plus for selection - candidates in ROTC are afforded space to explain their experience/ backgrounds in the application packet.

Correct - no flight costs are covered through the ROTC scholarship as an education cost benefit - room and board or tuition, fees, book stipend, monthly stipend for months of activities, but flight costs are a different category. Female candidates will find a great deal of scholarship support, males too - but be warned that universities can try to snap up those funds faster than those hungry-hungry hippos of the game of my youth.

For the boards in which OCS and other officers are considered for flight positions, they at-least ask about prior flight experience - see sample spreadsheet from a recent board (from the internet - no idea of it's accuracy or validity so take with grain of salt please).

 

[IronmanDaremo]

Unless I'm mistaken, passing an FAA physical/medical to fly is also not as vigorous as what the military requires. (Heck, my Dad continues to get FAA medical approval and is a licensed pilot at 75, and he's a mess!).

So, unless you've already passed a military grade flight physical, I would suggest you not bank your whole military career choice on flying. Or, other reasons might pop up where a flight billet may not be in the cards.

 

[franknd]

Do you mean just pursue a commission in general...? So much more info needed... do they want to be an officer in general? Or is their goal to fly private afterwards? Confused on what is being asked.

Goal 1 is to fly. Goal 1A is to be an officer who flies. But for purposes of the question, assume that Goal 1 > Goal 1A. The "afterwards" doesn't enter the picture yet. I don't know how else to spell it out.

I guess another way to frame the question is whether and how often the military commissions officers who have various pilot certifications, are physically able to fly, want to fly, etc., and makes them infantry/logistics/surface warfare officers instead?

 

[Capt MJ]

The military services all have their own ways of teaching people their standard flight skills, disciplines and approaches. Having a basic flight certification such as PPL in hand demonstrates the person has the aptitude, isn’t afraid to operate complex machinery in the air and isn’t prone to airsickness. After that, the military IPs I know (I was assigned to a Navy S-3 replacement air squadron [the non-deploying squadron that teaches new pilots and NFOs a specific air frame before going to their Fleet squadron]), including DH and DBIL who cycled through F-14 training squadrons as IPs back in the day, and two USNA sponsor family alumni who have been jet and helo IPs, all have commented it’s a challenge to “unlearn” bad habits and non-standard military patterns with some of their students. That includes re-calibrating mental attitude and over-confidence about flying experience, on occasion.

The needs of the military service will drive all, as always. There is simply no way to know at the SA and service ROTC how many spots will be open for any given year group. The whole person is looked at - academics, leadership, military aptitude, etc.

You want to be a good all-around performer who is ranked high enough to put you in good position to compete for aviation selection.

As mentioned, applying for Navy OCS is the only way to know for sure you are headed to aviation going in. There would still be competition to land an aviation seat at OCS. The Navy use OCS to cherry-pick exactly who it wants to make up annual intake numbers as needed to add to USNA, NROTC and other commissioning programs yield.

Back to the big picture - previous flight experience and certifications are in no way a negative. They are not a slam-dunk multiplier, though. First, the service evaluates your qualifications and performance to be an officer. Then the needs of the Navy and how that intersects with a midshipman’s desire to go naval aviation and the competitiveness of that individual across all aspects and against others requesting the same is evaluated.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

Unless I'm mistaken, passing an FAA physical/medical to fly is also not as vigorous as what the military requires. (Heck, my Dad continues to get FAA medical approval and is a licensed pilot at 75, and he's a mess!).

So, unless you've already passed a military grade flight physical, I would suggest you not bank your whole military career choice on flying. Or, other reasons might pop up where a flight billet may not be in the cards.

There are third, second, and first class medical certificates for pilots. Standards for a military or ATP pilot are significantly higher than a third class completed for a private pilot, for example in what's examined, and how frequenrly (ECG is a good example). There too are military standards for pilots (uncorrected vision etc.) astigmatism, etc. that when these exams are completed by a physician who completes these for the armed services, there are diagnoses that would DQ someone from being a military, but not a private pilot. So your Dad like me may be a bit of a mess and remain a pilot but whether or not he or others would pass a class 1 medical is not a guarantee, necessarily. I don't know your Dad so no disrespect - just citing your example for reference.

 

[IronmanDaremo]

I would guarantee he wouldn't pass the hardest one!

 

[Humey]

Outside of the academy, AFRotc is the easiest way to become a pilot. OTS has the advantage that you can apply for only a pilot spot. So you can apply for a commission and be a pilot and you do not have to take the commission if they don't give you the pilot spot. That is unlike Rotc where you have to commission even if you don't get the pilot spot. Having said that, OTS has always been the most competitive (USAFA is harder but has 1100 spots) because they have a very limited number of spots. During the last two years due to Covid, the openings at OTS have almost been zero (not quite) Traditionally, USAFA gets around 550 pilot spots, Rotc gets 450 and maybe OTS has 100 pilot spots. Definitely less these days. OTS is the safety valve for the AF. Not enough officers from USAFA and Rotc, then they allow more through OTS. Have too many through the academy and Rotc, theny reduce the number through OTS.

As for the major. My son went to Purdue and his major was Professional Flight. He and many of the people in his major did AFROTC and I would say most if not all are now pilots (assuming they qualified medically) Now he commissioned in 2018, and that was the peak in AFRotc where making it through Rotc and getting a pilot spot was almost guaranteed

No matter what people say, having the degree gave my son an advantage. His closest friend at UPT never flew before coming to UPT. He told us that those with prior flight time did have an advantage, especially with the T-6. It was only after the end of the T-6 TRAINING , that prior flying experience was no longer an issue. However, it did give those who wanted to fly the T-38 a leg up as those with experience had more confidence and more experience dealing with instruments and such. Of course plenty of guys with no flight experience excelled

 

[Herman_Snerd]

The military services all have their own ways of teaching people their standard flight skills, disciplines and approaches. Having a basic flight certification such as PPL in hand demonstrates the person has the aptitude, isn’t afraid to operate complex machinery in the air and isn’t prone to airsickness. After that, the military IPs I know (I was assigned to a Navy S-3 replacement air squadron [the non-deploying squadron that teaches new pilots and NFOs a specific air frame before going to their Fleet squadron]), including DH and DBIL who cycled through F-14 training squadrons as IPs back in the day, and two USNA sponsor family alumni who have been jet and helo IPs, all have commented it’s a challenge to “unlearn” bad habits and non-standard military patterns with some of their students. That includes re-calibrating mental attitude and over-confidence about flying experience, on occasion.

The needs of the military service will drive all, as always. There is simply no way to know at the SA and service ROTC how many spots will be open for any given year group. The whole person is looked at - academics, leadership, military aptitude, etc.

You want to be a good all-around performer who is ranked high enough to put you in good position to compete for aviation selection.

As mentioned, applying for Navy OCS is the only way to know for sure you are headed to aviation going in. There would still be competition to land an aviation seat at OCS. The Navy use OCS to cherry-pick exactly who it wants to make up annual intake numbers as needed to add to USNA, NROTC and other commissioning programs yield.

Back to the big picture - previous flight experience and certifications are in no way a negative. They are not a slam-dunk multiplier, though. First, the service evaluates your qualifications and performance to be an officer. Then the needs of the Navy and how that intersects with a midshipman’s desire to go naval aviation and the competitiveness of that individual across all aspects and against others requesting the same is evaluated.

Sincerely appreciate the guidance shared. It's very helpful and great food for thought.

Part of this guidance reminds me of an conversation I had last month with a helo pilot after a NROTC recruiting presentation at my DD’s school. During the Q&A, a HS student asked about prior flight experience and if that helped to be selected to be a pilot, and the LT. was not subtle in sharing a strong preference to support midshipmen without flight training going to Pensacola, since it was hard for those trained as civilians to unlearn/ relearn things the military way. Afterward/ 1:1, I offered my perspective very respectfully, which there should IMO not be an assumption that because a pilot speaks Spanish that the pilot doesn’t speak English, and visa-versa. I elaborated that my DS is a commercial pilot and CFI and “speaks” civilian aviation fluently, but that the flight instructor who taught him to fly is military (ANG C5 pilot) AND civilian (major carrier sr. pilot). When they were “chair flying” or running through if/ then scenarios for hours at a time on the ground (he used to call my son during 2 hour drives to/ from his air base and his home, and fire questions at him nonstop - it was awesome - said it "kept him awake" and my DS no matter how much homework was remaining would be energized from those calls), he would switch the questions to “and now we’re in a C5“ or “same question but we’re in a 737” or how to communicate via radio, etc. The helo pilot/ cadre member was very nice and asked a lot about my DS and his NROTC journey. The helo pilot and my DS now follow each other in Instagram which I just find charming as h*ll, and has offered to answer any questions he or I may have. Honestly, I love how seasoned pilots are so willing to help out younger pilots like my (well I wont' say "little guy" since he's taller than me, so I'll just say my son – I see this time and time again in the aviation community. Thanks again for sharing your experience and guidance.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

Outside of the academy, AFRotc is the easiest way to become a pilot. OTS has the advantage that you can apply for only a pilot spot. So you can apply for a commission and be a pilot and you do not have to take the commission if they don't give you the pilot spot. That is unlike Rotc where you have to commission even if you don't get the pilot spot. Having said that, OTS has always been the most competitive (USAFA is harder but has 1100 spots) because they have a very limited number of spots. During the last two years due to Covid, the openings at OTS have almost been zero (not quite) Traditionally, USAFA gets around 550 pilot spots, Rotc gets 450 and maybe OTS has 100 pilot spots. Definitely less these days. OTS is the safety valve for the AF. Not enough officers from USAFA and Rotc, then they allow more through OTS. Have too many through the academy and Rotc, theny reduce the number through OTS.

As for the major. My son went to Purdue and his major was Professional Flight. He and many of the people in his major did AFROTC and I would say most if not all are now pilots (assuming they qualified medically) Now he commissioned in 2018, and that was the peak in AFRotc where making it through Rotc and getting a pilot spot was almost guaranteed

No matter what people say, having the degree gave my son an advantage. His closest friend at UPT never flew before coming to UPT. He told us that those with prior flight time did have an advantage, especially with the T-6. It was only after the end of the T-6 TRAINING , that prior flying experience was no longer an issue. However, it did give those who wanted to fly the T-38 a leg up as those with experience had more confidence and more experience dealing with instruments and such. Of course plenty of guys with no flight experience excelled

Super helpful and encouraging - DS is same college major and hoping to follow in your son's footsteps to fly military, albeit in NROTC. Thank you.

 

[ekb1398]

While the slots aren't guaranteed at any point, as long as you are medically qualified, it is almost unheard of to not get flight school at some point in the Coast Guard. Unlike other branches, everyone O-3 and below can put in applications for flight school twice a year after commissioning. The catch is that you'll have to be doing another job until you get picked up (assuming you don't get picked up straight out of OCS/Academy), but I nor anybody I have ever spoken to has ever heard of anyone who didn't get it in the first 3-4 years that wanted it and applied consistently. I would say most commonly people get it around the 1.5-2 year mark. The only way to get a guaranteed spot is to do the CSPI program and then apply for the Wilks Flight Initiative.

 

[Humey]

Super helpful and encouraging - DS is same college major and hoping to follow in your son's footsteps to fly military, albeit in NROTC. Thank you.

Sincerely appreciate the guidance shared. It's very helpful and great food for thought.

Part of this guidance reminds me of an conversation I had last month with a helo pilot after a NROTC recruiting presentation at my DD’s school. During the Q&A, a HS student asked about prior flight experience and if that helped to be selected to be a pilot, and the LT. was not subtle in sharing a strong preference to support midshipmen without flight training going to Pensacola, since it was hard for those trained as civilians to unlearn/ relearn things the military way. Afterward/ 1:1, I offered my perspective very respectfully, which there should IMO not be an assumption that because a pilot speaks Spanish that the pilot doesn’t speak English, and visa-versa. I elaborated that my DS is a commercial pilot and CFI and “speaks” civilian aviation fluently, but that the flight instructor who taught him to fly is military (ANG C5 pilot) AND civilian (major carrier sr. pilot). When they were “chair flying” or running through if/ then scenarios for hours at a time on the ground (he used to call my son during 2 hour drives to/ from his air base and his home, and fire questions at him nonstop - it was awesome - said it "kept him awake" and my DS no matter how much homework was remaining would be energized from those calls), he would switch the questions to “and now we’re in a C5“ or “same question but we’re in a 737” or how to communicate via radio, etc. The helo pilot/ cadre member was very nice and asked a lot about my DS and his NROTC journey. The helo pilot and my DS now follow each other in Instagram which I just find charming as h*ll, and has offered to answer any questions he or I may have. Honestly, I love how seasoned pilots are so willing to help out younger pilots like my (well I wont' say "little guy" since he's taller than me, so I'll just say my son – I see this time and time again in the aviation community. Thanks again for sharing your experience and guidance.

i would agree that there is military flying and civilians flying. I have read stories where former airline pilots with 3000 or more hours do have a harder time because they have to unlearn everything they have been doing for years. However, the kids who major in Professional Flight wind up with like 200 hours more or less. They don't have much to unlearn. What they do have is the confidence of being up in the air. That is why the guys who have actual hours in the air have it over those who use the VR system they are implementing. Huge difference between flying 15 thousand feet in the over and being in a simulator. My son had every license and rating except ATP (Professional Airline Rating). That means he came knowing how to fly by instruments only and that is a huge leg up from those who come in without an hour of flight. In the end, flying is flying whether civilian or not. Some guys are natural fliers and some have to learn the skill. Best pilot in my son's t-38 class was a kid from USAFA. Never had an hour of flight time prior to going to UPT and wound up with a fighter plane. Others without flight time struggled during the T-6 while others with flight hours peaked with the T-6. You never know who is going to excel but its never a bad thing to have some skills. My son got into the fighter/bomber and flew the T-38 because there was an LT Colonel instructor who liked my son and liked how he flew. He liked his confidence and skill.