Grades vs Grit

[PRBWJB]

After reading all of the comments on the "Grade Inflation" thread, it makes me wonder what is the true determining factor for success: Is it grades or grit? It certainly sounds like MANY students are getting the grades, but do they have the grit to succeed? Do the kids who are products of helicopter parents, everyone-gets-a-trophy sports leagues, super-star student awards, over-diagnosed/over-medicated ADHD and Anxiety and dumb-downed curriculum prepared for the "real world"? When the going gets tough, do they have the life skills to persevere?

DH and I are older parents. Our kids have had a combination of small Christian/private education, homeschool, public school and military college prep. I've seen it all: parents who hold their sons back a grade so they are bigger to compete in sports; parents who could give 2 cents if their kids learns anything (as long as someone else was in charge 8 hours a day); parents who do their kids work to make sure they are #1 in the class; parents who get their kids a "profile" so they get extra time to take tests. How does any of this prepare a child for adulthood? We all have to face adversity at some point in our lives.

I do hope that my husband and I have done a good job preparing out kids for the next step.

 

[justdoit19]

IMO, it’s a combo of both. But, I’ll take grit over grades any day. You can teach someone something they need to learn. You can’t teach (in an academic setting) grit.

There was lots of discussion about this last year, surrounding plebes who were struggling with the awful COVID summer. Grades didn’t matter then. Only grit. My own dug into some deeeeep grit and persevered. I’m more proud of him for getting through those dark times, on pure determination and grit, than any academic accomplishment he has has over the year thus far. And, imo, it will serve him well in the future…more than an A’s in his classes.

He learned more about himself through that grit, than anything so far.

If a candidate can show examples of grit…falling down and getting back up, learning and pressing forward…in their interviews and essays? Imo, that’s part of the whole person. That cannot be taught. That leads to success.

GRIT > GRADES

adding: your comment about facing adversity (challenge) is one of the prompts in the essay. It’s important!

 

[cb7893]

GRIT > GRADES

+1 for long term success.

For better or worse, grades and test scores above a certain level are the calling card. An example of grit would mean doing what it takes to raise those scores.

Besides simply bearing down and "making something happen", one needs to be willing to not be driven by the expectations of others...that includes their cohort as well as adults. That can be a really long slog.

 

[Tropic Justice]

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread. I just finished reading a great book on this topic: “Grit” by Angela Duckworth where she elaborates on her studies on why certain people succeed and others do not. Her first series discusses why 1 in 5 cadets at West Point drop out before graduation- despite all the time, effort and energy it took for them to get an appointment. She found that those who succeeded (graduated) had something that cannot be measured or gleaned from a resume, interview or application- it was simply “grit.”
I found it interesting that her studies seemed to show that for high achieving students, they seem to fall apart when things get tough. But those with grit- the ability to dig deep and persevere- always found a way.
I’m not sure grit can be taught, but perhaps it can be acquired if adults allow kids to “live and learn.” Perhaps our society has morphed into an almost zero tolerance for mistakes place where kids don’t learn that they have grit because they aren’t used to failing.

 

[ProudDad2022]

Grit wins if you ask me. Don't tell my mid I'm sharing this but, here is what one of his professors wrote after he got a "D" in a class:

"He was a joy to work with over the course of this trying semester. He approached my course with an up-beat and positive professionalism that was, seemingly, out of step with the challenges that the course was putting him through. No matter how much he struggled, he worked, came for loads of EI, asked engaged questions in class, never complained, and never wavered in his drive to succeed.

He is going to make an outstanding officer. He has a calming and engaging persona, and he knows what it means to have to really grind to achieve.

Send me a room full of Midshipmen with his attitude and work ethic, and I will never complain about anything ever again."

I've never been more proud of my kid for getting a "D" in my life.

 

[justdoit19]

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread. I just finished reading a great book on this topic: “Grit” by Angela Duckworth where she elaborates on her studies on why certain people succeed and others do not. Her first series discusses why 1 in 5 cadets at West Point drop out before graduation- despite all the time, effort and energy it took for them to get an appointment. She found that those who succeeded (graduated) had something that cannot be measured or gleaned from a resume, interview or application- it was simply “grit.”
I found it interesting that her studies seemed to show that for high achieving students, they seem to fall apart when things get tough. But those with grit- the ability to dig deep and persevere- always found a way.
I’m not sure grit can be taught, but perhaps it can be acquired if adults allow kids to “live and learn.” Perhaps our society has morphed into an almost zero tolerance for mistakes place where kids don’t learn that they have grit because they aren’t used to failing.

Wait. 1 in 5 cadets at WP drop out before graduation? That doesn’t seem correct

 

[Tropic Justice]

Wait. 1 in 5 cadets at WP drop out before graduation? That doesn’t seem correct

That was her data…it included all cadets from the first day they arrive to the day they graduated…however she did say that the majority of those who quit do so during beast…again her data.

 

[Old Enlisted Marine]

Zero Tolerance for mistakes can be a whole post of its own……..

Grit is more important because grit will drive you to learn if you are passionate about something. Intelligence is just that, intelligence. Intelligence is not a driving factor. Smart people fail without drive, those with grit are less likely to fail because they are less likely to give up.

HARD WORK BEATS TALENT WHEN TALENT DOESN‘T WORK HARD

 

[CatDog99]

In my personal experience, kids who get pushed beyond their comfort zone, who learn to cope with stress and ambiguity, and who come back with a new plan when they lose -- will ultimately be the most successful and resilient adults. I think most of us remember the hard days; we treasure the hard-fought victories the most.

 

[A1Janitor]

After reading all of the comments on the "Grade Inflation" thread, it makes me wonder what is the true determining factor for success: Is it grades or grit? It certainly sounds like MANY students are getting the grades, but do they have the grit to succeed? Do the kids who are products of helicopter parents, everyone-gets-a-trophy sports leagues, super-star student awards, over-diagnosed/over-medicated ADHD and Anxiety and dumb-downed curriculum prepared for the "real world"? When the going gets tough, do they have the life skills to persevere?

DH and I are older parents. Our kids have had a combination of small Christian/private education, homeschool, public school and military college prep. I've seen it all: parents who hold their sons back a grade so they are bigger to compete in sports; parents who could give 2 cents if their kids learns anything (as long as someone else was in charge 8 hours a day); parents who do their kids work to make sure they are #1 in the class; parents who get their kids a "profile" so they get extra time to take tests. How does any of this prepare a child for adulthood? We all have to face adversity at some point in our lives.

I do hope that my husband and I have done a good job preparing out kids for the next step.

Haha

My son would have dropped from 1 to 97 if I helped him. I was a math whiz in high school and math major in college. He asked me to help him on an 8th grade common core math problem. I grew angry because I couldn’t figure it out in the hour I spent.

 

[cb7893]

In my personal experience, kids who get pushed push themselves beyond their comfort zone, who will learn to cope with stress and ambiguity, and who will come back with a new plan when they lose --They will ultimately be the most successful and resilient adults. I think most of us remember the hard days; we treasure the hard-fought victories the most.

 

[cb7893]

Grit

I am posting this thought-provoking TED talk here because I firmly believe the intangible quality of grit is essential to success in the military, regardless of commissioning path, officer or enlisted status, or service. It is that willingness to persevere with a single-minded focus. It is a...

www.serviceacademyforums.com

 

[CatDog99]

I like your version @cb7893, but imagine what I might have been thinking when I wrote mine.

Young men and women can be pushed by external factors: a dead battery, a storm, a lost compass, a penalty, an injury.... They react to those new circumstances based on their previous experience. Some will quit and curse the ground; some will regroup and persevere.

 

[cb7893]

I like your version @cb7893, but imagine what I might have been thinking when I wrote mine.

Young men and women can be pushed by external factors: a dead battery, a storm, a lost compass, a penalty, an injury.... They react to those new circumstances based on their previous experience. Some will quit and curse the ground; some will regroup and persevere.

My cross-outs were meant to expand, upon, not negate your point.

 

[Casey]

Wait. 1 in 5 cadets at WP drop out before graduation? That doesn’t seem correct

A class usually starts around ~1200 and graduates ~1000. With some classes being larger to start and some attrition happening more for others, the average of ~80% graduating seems a good ball park. Mine was almost exactly at that mark.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

This is not an "either/or" issue -- you need both .

First, you need grades and standardized scores to get in -- I doubt anyone ever got in to a Service Academy with C's and 500 SAT's by explaining they worked hard and had grit or overcame obstacles. The starting point for any Service Academy is that you have to have the academic background to get through a strenuous academic regime, and (at least for know), HS grades and College Board scores are the predictors.
Academics at any of the Service Academies are hard, and sometimes very hard. You need some level of academic aptitude to succeed.

I'm not saying that grades or college board scores are the end all...and recognize in the day of grade inflation and college board prep classes, that these are not necessarily reliable indicators of success. The ability to overcome challenges and bounce back from hits (ie.. grit) is also necessary for success. No matter how well someone does in HS or how smart they are, they are going to face challenges at a Service Academy, and the ability to take the hit and bounce back is critical.

 

[USMAZoo98]

Zero Tolerance for mistakes can be a whole post of its own……..

Grit is more important because grit will drive you to learn if you are passionate about something. Intelligence is just that, intelligence. Intelligence is not a driving factor. Smart people fail without drive, those with grit are less likely to fail because they are less likely to give up.

HARD WORK BEATS TALENT WHEN TALENT DOESN‘T WORK HARD

This is not an "either/or" issue -- you need both .

First, you need grades and standardized scores to get in -- I doubt anyone ever got in to a Service Academy with C's and 500 SAT's by explaining they worked hard and had grit or overcame obstacles. The starting point for any Service Academy is that you have to have the academic background to get through a strenuous academic regime, and (at least for know), HS grades and College Board scores are the predictors.
Academics at any of the Service Academies are hard, and sometimes very hard. You need some level of academic aptitude to succeed.

I'm not saying that grades or college board scores are the end all...and recognize in the day of grade inflation and college board prep classes, that these are not necessarily reliable indicators of success. The ability to overcome challenges and bounce back from hits (ie.. grit) is also necessary for success. No matter how well someone does in HS or how smart they are, they are going to face challenges at a Service Academy, and the ability to take the hit and bounce back is critical.

Some great points in both of these posts. I completely agree with @Old Enlisted Marine that grit beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. That is where SA attendees get challenged. Sometimes the talented who get in are not fully prepared for the grit that they still have to put forth. My son was a very good student, with very good grades and scores, though not the very highest. He is currently excelling now as a plebe because he is willing to work harder, and smarter, while some of the superstars coming in are struggling mightily. To his credit, he is also trying to help some of those he sees around him struggling with that "work hard" part.

But @Old Navy BGO is right that academic aptitude cannot be discounted. Usually academics gets you in the door long before grit. What happens after you get in the door is the most important part. That's where the people with grit, who still had good enough aptitude to get in, start to pass the people who were not prepared to put in that extra work.

Ultimately, it takes a good mix of both to be the best officer, in my humble opinion.

 

[jl123]

In life grit trumps grades, but it's better to have both. I've known plenty of very successful people of average intelligence that succeeded through determination and hard work, and some very smart people whose mediocrity was due lack of drive and determination. But the most successful people I've known are both smart and determined.

In USMA admissions, grades/test scores trump grit. There are no WCS points for grit. Although there are some activities and indicators in the application process that may act as proxies for grit, there is no objective direct measure.

However, one may argue that the arduous application process in itself screens for candidates with grit.