KP Mids Sea Yr vs Annapolis Mids Summer Cruise

[KPEngnr90]

Article by Deatra Thompson(USNA 94), a seasoned mariner with experience as both a Navy Surface Warfare Officer and now a Sea Captain in the US Merchant Marine, highlights the disparity between her own training as a midshipman at Annapolis and the comprehensive instruction given to midshipmen at the United States Merchant Marine Academy. Specifically, she notes that the intense sea year program at Kings Point provides the newly minted officers with an advanced ability in seamanship, shiphandling and shipboard engineering.

https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/a-solution-to-the-u-s-navy-s-training-problem

 

[Kierkegaard]

It’s an interesting idea, but I’m unsold. There’s another big difference between the two academies in that KP grads mostly serve in the maritime industry whilst USNA grads serve in the Navy or USMC in many designators—A plurality actually goes into aviation, not surface warfare. We also have no way of knowing whether those collisions would have not occurred had the officers all had a sea year during their undergrad. Then there’s the fact that only a third of naval officers commission through the Academy anyway.

That said, I do like the idea of commissioning programs being more vocational. Very little of what I learned at the Naval Academy is applicable to what I do in the Fleet as an officer. But this is characteristic of most people’s college experience. Usually doesn’t relate to what you end up doing. Of course traditionally a college education wasn’t meant to prepare one for a specific job (I believe it used to be that people in the higher rungs of society were expected to learn Latin, geometry, astronomy, grammar, and philosophy), but that’s what many people have come to expect.

 

[justdoit19]

It’s an interesting idea, but I’m unsold. There’s another big difference between the two academies in that KP grads mostly serve in the maritime industry whilst USNA grads serve in the Navy or USMC in many designators—A plurality actually goes into aviation, not surface warfare. We also have no way of knowing whether those collisions would have not occurred had the officers all had a sea year during their undergrad. Then there’s the fact that only a third of naval officers commission through the Academy anyway.

That said, I do like the idea of commissioning programs being more vocational. Very little of what I learned at the Naval Academy is applicable to what I do in the Fleet as an officer. But this is characteristic of most people’s college experience. Usually doesn’t relate to what you end up doing. Of course traditionally a college education wasn’t meant to prepare one for a specific job (I believe it used to be that people in the higher rungs of society were expected to learn Latin, geometry, astronomy, grammar, and philosophy), but that’s what many people have come to expect.

Great points, great post.

Sticks USMMA grad in any of the other communities a USNA grad is assigned, and it’s a more level playing field. And probably USNA grad has a slight advantage bc of the wide variety of trainings they are exposed to over their years at USNA.

I would expect perhaps some advantage on the seas, once on the job, coming from USMMA just from the increased exposure to sea ops. But disadvantages (or at least no advantage) in other communities.

The real training comes on the job. And the playing field is quickly leveled, given the same opportunities to learn their craft, with the same competence of the operator.

 

[NeverSayNever]

Good article and what she really is advocating for is the return of SWOS. Our (USNA) Ens that commission surface are known for being relatively poor ship handlers that are basically learning on the job. Unfortunately, since USNA makes more pilots and Marines than SWOs these days it would be hard to justify additional training at the core of USNA but perhaps the role of the school could change if service assignment happened earlier - perhaps after youngster (3c) year. The following summers instead of being divided into sampling different career fields could be turned into 9-12week training sessions. Pilots could complete Aviation Preflight Indoctrination as well as the Initial Flight Training program over two summers. Marines could complete TBS divided over two summers. Subs could start reactor training etc and SWOs could start learning their trade as well prior to graduation. And idea like that would reduce the "adolescence" period, reduce the personnel cost (MIDN are cheaper than ENS) and functionally get Officer's producing results earlier in their career.

 

[cg66]

Article by Deatra Thompson(USNA 94), a seasoned mariner with experience as both a Navy Surface Warfare Officer and now a Sea Captain in the US Merchant Marine, highlights the disparity between her own training as a midshipman at Annapolis and the comprehensive instruction given to midshipmen at the United States Merchant Marine Academy. Specifically, she notes that the intense sea year program at Kings Point provides the newly minted officers with an advanced ability in seamanship, shiphandling and shipboard engineering.

https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/a-solution-to-the-u-s-navy-s-training-problem

Agreed, having gone SWO from KP, we were far more prepared to operate ships vs our NA and ROTC mates. It's partly why SWO JO's are treated like trainees the first year, and even the department heads didn't have very good nautical skills or knowledge. To be fair I was disappointed in the SWO community as a whole, and have thought that professional mariner LDO's would be a good idea.

 

[nuensis]

SWOS has been back for the better part of a decade. It was up and running at the time of this article's publication. In this case I think the author just had not kept up with the news. There's a decent pipeline and go/no-go milestones for JOs to POCR out at different points.

A better problem to address is why we don't separate professional mariners from warfare officers/TAOs since SWOs get the pleasure of learning two or three almost disjoint skillsets. I works well for the Aussies, but they also have all of what, five Aegis ships? We have too many ships and too few officers for that.

I don't fault a DH for needing to replace some shiphandling knowledge with Aegis knowledge in DHC/Dahlgren; only so much fluff can go in there. And then when you get to doing the job, it's time on the console vs. time with the conn--there's only so much time to get good at either one.

You can really start to see the divides in who's better on the bridge and who's better in CIC--there's maybe one guy or gal per wardroom that is actually good at both.

I think detailing and talent management have shifted a bit to try to mitigate this. Engineering DIVOs are driven towards CHENG. Topsiders toward OPS/CSO. Former CHENG CO offset by former CSO XO.

 

[justme]

As a non-military dad, I was surprised at the lack of DS' on-water experience at USNA. I get that 75% of grads wont be SWOs. I also get that Covid, budgets, luck and personal requests all played a part. Just, 4 years ago, I would have naturally assumed more days underway by commissioning.

 

[KPEngnr90]

It’s an interesting idea, but I’m unsold. There’s another big difference between the two academies in that KP grads mostly serve in the maritime industry whilst USNA grads serve in the Navy or USMC in many designators—A plurality actually goes into aviation, not surface warfare. We also have no way of knowing whether those collisions would have not occurred had the officers all had a sea year during their undergrad. Then there’s the fact that only a third of naval officers commission through the Academy anyway.

That said, I do like the idea of commissioning programs being more vocational. Very little of what I learned at the Naval Academy is applicable to what I do in the Fleet as an officer. But this is characteristic of most people’s college experience. Usually doesn’t relate to what you end up doing. Of course traditionally a college education wasn’t meant to prepare one for a specific job (I believe it used to be that people in the higher rungs of society were expected to learn Latin, geometry, astronomy, grammar, and philosophy), but that’s what many people have come to expect.

I believe her article was focusing on the issue of shiphandling, seamanship and shipboard engineering which by her interpretation was saying from her own experience that the midshipmen from Kings Point were more prepared right out the gate because of their sea year experience. Unlike the Navy there's no such thing as UI or a PQS book. Once you step aboard a merchant ship the guy you're relieving shakes your hand and says you have the watch as he heads down the brow to go on vacation. Kings Point is more like a trade school for seagoing officers. The marine engineering degree is like no other at a regular university. How many college engineering majors are taught welding, pipefitting, plumbing, diesel and electrical maintenance. and how to operate lathes and CNC machines. There's no EOOW qualifications in the MM. You're operating a whole engine room and all the auxiliaries by yourself with the ink barely dry on your marine license. Theres only 25 people total on a Supertanker which is as large as an aircraft carrier. I went SWO after KP as an engineer and never having been on a bridge of a ship, I can definitely say SWOS was invaluable. I get to brag to my deckie classmates that I got to drive a destroyer as OOD through the Straits of Malacca with a 3rd Engineers license.
Luckily I was assigned as Auxo and later MPA so I was in my element but my roommate who relieved me as Auxo was an econ major at Annapolis and the CHENG was an english major at UVA, so it dawned on me being an engineering officer on a warship was more of an administrative position rather than technical one.

 

[KPEngnr90]

Great points, great post.

Sticks USMMA grad in any of the other communities a USNA grad is assigned, and it’s a more level playing field. And probably USNA grad has a slight advantage bc of the wide variety of trainings they are exposed to over their years at USNA.

I would expect perhaps some advantage on the seas, once on the job, coming from USMMA just from the increased exposure to sea ops. But disadvantages (or at least no advantage) in other communities.

The real training comes on the job. And the playing field is quickly leveled, given the same opportunities to learn their craft, with the same competence of the operator.

I believe she was focusing on the issue of shiphandling, seamanship and shipboard engineering. How many young SWO's actually know how to use a sextant? I was an engineer outta KP and went SWO on a destroyer in San Diego and the only guy that knew how to use one was our 1st Lt. A Vietnamese kid who was a licensed 3rd mate out of Cal Maritime. The Old man was enamored with him. He drove that destroyer like a professional race car driver. He got his SWO pin as an Ensign which is rare and he went on to become the ships navigator. We both ran into eachother years later in the merchant marine as 3rd mate and 3rd engineer on the tanker S/S Overseas Chicago.

 

[justdoit19]

As a non-military dad, I was surprised at the lack of DS' on-water experience at USNA. I get that 75% of grads wont be SWOs. I also get that Covid, budgets, luck and personal requests all played a part. Just, 4 years ago, I would have naturally assumed more days underway by commissioning.

lol my Firstie was assigned subs. And hasn’t set foot on one.

 

[OldRetSWO]

Different Schools, related but different mission sets.

The SWOS of today is far different from the SWOS of the 70's-90's. When I went through SWOS in Newport, we had time underway aboard YPs in Newport as well as access to other schools. The process at the time sent many/most to further billet and general schools en route to the ship so the pipelines were much longer for a lot of us. Much less on the job training as we had the classroom training to start with.
Sea Story: After SWOS, I went to Naval Guided Missiles School in Dam Neck and when I reported, I was seated next to a friend form USMMA who we'd sailed against on numerous occasions. I wouldn't say that there was a huge difference in our performance in school. Later he went to 3 stars and eventually headed up USMMA for a while so he's got that going for him which is nice.
FWIW: Much later, our kids sailed against one another in college.

 

[KPEngnr90]

SWOS has been back for the better part of a decade. It was up and running at the time of this article's publication. In this case I think the author just had not kept up with the news. There's a decent pipeline and go/no-go milestones for JOs to POCR out at different points.

A better problem to address is why we don't separate professional mariners from warfare officers/TAOs since SWOs get the pleasure of learning two or three almost disjoint skillsets. I works well for the Aussies, but they also have all of what, five Aegis ships? We have too many ships and too few officers for that.

I don't fault a DH for needing to replace some shiphandling knowledge with Aegis knowledge in DHC/Dahlgren; only so much fluff can go in there. And then when you get to doing the job, it's time on the console vs. time with the conn--there's only so much time to get good at either one.

You can really start to see the divides in who's better on the bridge and who's better in CIC--there's maybe one guy or gal per wardroom that is actually good at both.

I think detailing and talent management have shifted a bit to try to mitigate this. Engineering DIVOs are driven towards CHENG. Topsiders toward OPS/CSO. Former CHENG CO offset by former CSO XO.

SWOS has been back for the better part of a decade. It was up and running at the time of this article's publication. In this case I think the author just had not kept up with the news. There's a decent pipeline and go/no-go milestones for JOs to POCR out at different points.

A better problem to address is why we don't separate professional mariners from warfare officers/TAOs since SWOs get the pleasure of learning two or three almost disjoint skillsets. I works well for the Aussies, but they also have all of what, five Aegis ships? We have too many ships and too few officers for that.

I don't fault a DH for needing to replace some shiphandling knowledge with Aegis knowledge in DHC/Dahlgren; only so much fluff can go in there. And then when you get to doing the job, it's time on the console vs. time with the conn--there's only so much time to get good at either one.

You can really start to see the divides in who's better on the bridge and who's better in CIC--there's maybe one guy or gal per wardroom that is actually good at both.

I think detailing and talent management have shifted a bit to try to mitigate this. Engineering DIVOs are driven towards CHENG. Topsiders toward OPS/CSO. Former CHENG CO offset by former CSO XO.

 

[KPEngnr90]

SWOS has been back for the better part of a decade. It was up and running at the time of this article's publication. In this case I think the author just had not kept up with the news. There's a decent pipeline and go/no-go milestones for JOs to POCR out at different points.

A better problem to address is why we don't separate professional mariners from warfare officers/TAOs since SWOs get the pleasure of learning two or three almost disjoint skillsets. I works well for the Aussies, but they also have all of what, five Aegis ships? We have too many ships and too few officers for that.

I don't fault a DH for needing to replace some shiphandling knowledge with Aegis knowledge in DHC/Dahlgren; only so much fluff can go in there. And then when you get to doing the job, it's time on the console vs. time with the conn--there's only so much time to get good at either one.

You can really start to see the divides in who's better on the bridge and who's better in CIC--there's maybe one guy or gal per wardroom that is actually good at both.

I think detailing and talent management have shifted a bit to try to mitigate this. Engineering DIVOs are driven towards CHENG. Topsiders toward OPS/CSO. Former CHENG CO offset by former CSO XO.

 

[KPEngnr90]

I don't believe SWOS has been reinstated until recently. The Fitz collision happened in 2017 and my best friend's 06 retirement ceremomy was in Oct of 2018 and I remember it as a topic of discussion amongst all us ex SWO Daddys how the ship driving in the Navy has gone to ****. The deck majors at KP have a Rules of the Road joke, "If its grey stay away"
But yes Im glad SWOS has been reinstated. I graduated from KP with a 3rd engineers license never having been on a bridge so all my shiphandling skills were learned on a YP in Coronado Bay im San Diego. The bridge/cic simulators were invaluable and helped me learn the interaction between the 2. From what I understand SWOS is in two parts now. 1 before first DivO tour and part two between 1st and 2nd DivO tour. The more comprehensive the training the better. Kings Point cranks out mariners and Annapolis cranks out warriors with some skills as mariners. The Navy should atleast send guys with engineering degrees down in the hole. It was quite a challenge for my NA roommate with an econ degree, who relieved me as Auxo, to understand how a 2 stage flash type distilling unit works.

 

[OldRetSWO]

It was quite a challenge for my NA roommate with an econ degree, who relieved me as Auxo, to understand how a 2 stage flash type distilling unit works.

I guess he slept through the REQUIRED youngster year course that covered the concepts and engineering behind the distilling units. Certainly not detailed to your equipment but the concepts were in a required course at that time.

 

[KPEngnr90]

Different Schools, related but different mission sets.

The SWOS of today is far different from the SWOS of the 70's-90's. When I went through SWOS in Newport, we had time underway aboard YPs in Newport as well as access to other schools. The process at the time sent many/most to further billet and general schools en route to the ship so the pipelines were much longer for a lot of us. Much less on the job training as we had the classroom training to start with.
Sea Story: After SWOS, I went to Naval Guided Missiles School in Dam Neck and when I reported, I was seated next to a friend form USMMA who we'd sailed against on numerous occasions. I wouldn't say that there was a huge difference in our performance in school. Later he went to 3 stars and eventually headed up USMMA for a while so he's got that going for him which is nice.
FWIW: Much later, our kids sailed against one another in college.

I guess he slept through the REQUIRED youngster year course that covered the concepts and engineering behind the distilling units. Certainly not detailed to your equipment but the concepts were in a required course at that time.

Probably cared about it as much as I cared about a sextant.

 

[nuensis]

Kings Point cranks out mariners and Annapolis cranks out warriors with some skills as mariners. The Navy should atleast send guys with engineering degrees down in the hole. It was quite a challenge for my NA roommate with an econ degree, who relieved me as Auxo, to understand how a 2 stage flash type distilling unit works.

I think warriors with mariner skills is kind of the target here. Commercial industry or whatnot might scoff at it, but the Navy has also had the opportunity lately to demonstrate that we are still good at what we were originally chartered to do--protect commercial shipping from direct attack.

The officers with engineering degrees need to be topside as well, to operate and maintain an increasingly more complex combat system.

What about officers for planning? Security cooperation? There's a lot to develop in a JO between O-1 and O-4, I don't think it's as cut and dry as we need to make every SWO into the best shipdriver possible. Some will be better than others, but others will have necessary skills that need to be developed just as much.

That said, I agree, SWOS took a dip even after coming back from SWOS-in-a-Box that everyone is still recovering from. But I think what we have now is far better than eight years ago.

 

[KPEngnr90]

I think warriors with mariner skills is kind of the target here. Commercial industry or whatnot might scoff at it, but the Navy has also had the opportunity lately to demonstrate that we are still good at what we were originally chartered to do--protect commercial shipping from direct attack.

The officers with engineering degrees need to be topside as well, to operate and maintain an increasingly more complex combat system.

What about officers for planning? Security cooperation? There's a lot to develop in a JO between O-1 and O-4, I don't think it's as cut and dry as we need to make every SWO into the best shipdriver possible. Some will be better than others, but others will have necessary skills that need to be developed just as much.

That said, I agree, SWOS took a dip even after coming back from SWOS-in-a-Box that everyone is still recovering from. But I think what we have now is far better than eight years ago.

My good friend KP 98 who became the CO of USS Benfold used his knowledge of the expertise of Merchant Marine Officers to his benefit. He had a SSO officer (Engineering type) and two 2/C Midshipmen from Kings Point assigned aboard to utilize their expertise in shipboard and machinery repair to save money on repair costs by teaching the enlisted aboard some tecniques in ships maintenance and repair. What KP does on the engineering side is unique. It doesn't just teach young mids to be ships officers but gives them the skills to be mechanics, electricians, pipefitters, welders and metal fabricators. Shipboard handymen with an engineering degree if you will. The only drawback is the laundry list of fixit items your wife hands you after a 60 or 90 day stint at sea.

 

[Edmund]

It's being reported one of the pilots of the Francis Scott Key Bridge incident this morning is a USMMA grad. The other is from SUNY Maritime.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1772647345135501525

 

[Ihavenoidea]

It's being reported one of the pilots of the Francis Scott Key Bridge this morning is a USMMA grad. The other is from SUNY Maritime.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1772647345135501525

I will be surprised if the pilots had anything to do with this incident. Hard to pilot a vessel with no steering or propulsion. Capt is still in command even when pilots are onboard.