Lowering Standards

What are the new changes with the PRT?

Not too surprised. PRT is a force shaping tool and they need the people right now. Some of the numbers are outdated too, particularly with height and weight for women. Most of the girls I know have to get taped every year but they’re definitely not overweight or obese.
 
Georgia Hokie said:
Attached update from original source. Looks like was rolled out last summer, effective CY25.
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Looks like more discretion given to COs at for what to do with sailors who do not pass PFAs. Also making it so a sailor who fails BCA will still pass if they get at least excellent-low
 
Standards have gone up and down since 1775. Ponytails, no ponytails, and ponytails again. The father of our navy wore a ponytail.
Ivy22 said:
Not too surprised. PRT is a force shaping tool and they need the people right now. Some of the numbers are outdated too, particularly with height and weight for women. Most of the girls I know have to get taped every year but they’re definitely not overweight or obese.
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Exactly and so are other accession and retention tools. High school diploma/no high school diploma. Drug use/no drug use.

I've read and heard the complaints of lowering standards to get in and stay in. Were the standards lowered or just changed?

I was once the head of training for Independent Duty Corpsmen, Preventive Medicine Technicians (PMT), and was the liaison/advisor to the Marine Corps for Marine Corps medical training when that billet was at BUMED. I was a 3-digit, MED-531. Anyway, we were hurting for PMTs in the Fleet and FMF. Various recruiting efforts didn't bring the numbers up much so I in conjunction with the Medical Force Master Chief who is dual hatted as the Director of the Hospital Corps, decided to allow new corpsmen just out of Corps School to go straight to PMT C school. The whining, crying, and gnashing of teeth from the community was audible from all points on the globe. I answered the phone in mine and Commodore Maury's office one day and a Chief PMT from one of our NEPMUs started to light me up about the "lowered" standards. I let him finish and asked, "Chief, are you 100 percent manned? Do you have a PMT in all your billets? IH, EH, pest control. Could you send a PMT TAD to a carrier if so tasked by PERSCOM?" Ahh, no Senior Chief. We're waiting on new ones to get out of school, he said. I told him to picture the billet open, then picture it filled. Which would you prefer? Well, filled of course he said. Alrighty then, I told him. And that's exactly the reason we changed the requirements from being a third class petty officer with two years time in service to new Corps School grad. You should see a full roster in about six months.

The Army and Navy as far as I remember boasted about meeting recruiting numbers this past year. The reason of course is the services changed the requirements. The COs, dept. heads, and division chiefs can't complain about not having a full crew and also complain about standards being lowered. Well, back in my day. . .

Here's the reason the Marine Corps meets their recruiting quota every year without lowering standards. Allegedly. The title. Lots of people want to be a Marine. A while back when the other services were giving out bonuses to new recruits the Commandant of the Marine Corps said, "We're not going to give you a bonus to join the Marines Corps. you'll earn a title you can carry the rest of your life." Paraphrased because I am too lazy to look up his exact words.
 
Devil Doc said:
Standards have gone up and down since 1775. Ponytails, no ponytails, and ponytails again. The father of our navy wore a ponytail.

Exactly and so are other accession and retention tools. High school diploma/no high school diploma. Drug use/no drug use.

I've read and heard the complaints of lowering standards to get in and stay in. Were the standards lowered or just changed?

I was once the head of training for Independent Duty Corpsmen, Preventive Medicine Technicians (PMT), and was the liaison/advisor to the Marine Corps for Marine Corps medical training when that billet was at BUMED. I was a 3-digit, MED-531. Anyway, we were hurting for PMTs in the Fleet and FMF. Various recruiting efforts didn't bring the numbers up much so I in conjunction with the Medical Force Master Chief who is dual hatted as the Director of the Hospital Corps, decided to allow new corpsmen just out of Corps School to go straight to PMT C school. The whining, crying, and gnashing of teeth from the community was audible from all points on the globe. I answered the phone in mine and Commodore Maury's office one day and a Chief PMT from one of our NEPMUs started to light me up about the "lowered" standards. I let him finish and asked, "Chief, are you 100 percent manned? Do you have a PMT in all your billets? IH, EH, pest control. Could you send a PMT TAD to a carrier if so tasked by PERSCOM?" Ahh, no Senior Chief. We're waiting on new ones to get out of school, he said. I told him to picture the billet open, then picture it filled. Which would you prefer? Well, filled of course he said. Alrighty then, I told him. And that's exactly the reason we changed the requirements from being a third class petty officer with two years time in service to new Corps School grad. You should see a full roster in about six months.

The Army and Navy as far as I remember boasted about meeting recruiting numbers this past year. The reason of course is the services changed the requirements. The COs, dept. heads, and division chiefs can't complain about not having a full crew and also complain about standards being lowered. Well, back in my day. . .

Here's the reason the Marine Corps meets their recruiting quota every year without lowering standards. Allegedly. The title. Lots of people want to be a Marine. A while back when the other services were giving out bonuses to new recruits the Commandant of the Marine Corps said, "We're not going to give you a bonus to join the Marines Corps. you'll earn a title you can carry the rest of your life." Paraphrased because I am too lazy to look up his exact words.
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My Mid tells me how many people cannot pass the PRT and it's quite shocking. I don't think lowering the standards is the answer. This makes the Marines all the more attractive to those who take physical readiness seriously.
 
The ponytail and other relaxed hair regs for women look to be here to stay. Hopefully it’ll cut down on moldy hair and receding hairlines caused by super tight buns. Also saves a ton of time in the morning when people could be doing other productive stuff

Still can’t have a long ponytail in the Navy though, which means I have to take my bun down to go fly (won’t fit correctly under helmet) but then put it back up each time after my flight. Maybe that’ll change too
 
One of my friends in the Space Force said they’re trying to move away from fitness tests. New test program for some of them where they wear watches and do their own 3 workouts a week (or something like that)
 
Edmund said:
My Mid tells me how many people cannot pass the PRT and it's quite shocking. I don't think lowering the standards is the answer. This makes the Marines all the more attractive to those who take physical readiness seriously.
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I’m not arguing with you when I say this but of those mids who fail the PRT, would they have been better replaced by PT studs who can’t do calculus or grasp engineering principles?
 
Ivy22 said:
One of my friends in the Space Force said they’re trying to move away from fitness tests. New test program for some of them where they wear watches and do their own 3 workouts a week (or something like that)
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I’ve read that maybe about space force or Air Force or both. I have a story about a lab technician who got kicked out because of weight. I’ll tell it in a few minutes.
 
I've talked about PRT standards before to my son. He always said that you knew PRT was coming up because there was a sudden surge of Midshipmen appearing at the track with energy drinks in hand. There are people who feel you can cram for PRT like you can for an exam.

I've mentioned that I would be OK with lower PRT standards under one condition... Random testing. I'd rather see someone in decent shape all of the time.
 
I do know a fair amount of people that are a part of the 1.5 mile club (formerly the 3 mile club when it was twice a year) and they do just fine on the PRT.

Then there’s others that work out fairly regularly and struggle because their workouts are different from what the PRT tests.

My commands lately have waited until the last month of the cycle to conduct it and have no command PT program
 
I'm a big PT guy and not a fan of having to lower standards but the country has changed and so must standards. It's hard to find young people who both want to join and are qualified to join. I teach in a very military friendly school and the recruiters would be in the building once a month until about a year ago. The only time I see them now is when they are invited in to guest speak. The last time I saw the Marine, I was in the hallway between classes with a handful of other teachers and he was walking through. I had met him before so he knew my background. I asked him how business was. He said as he walked by, "If you ever figure out how to fix fat and stupid, let me know." The other teachers looked at me with dropped jaws. I laughed.

Childhood obesity is endemic in this country, not an epidemic. Public education is failing them. Teachers get a lot of the criticism but we have to work within the system. The district where I teach and where my kids graduated has truly lowered standards. We have to use a rolling grade book. Discipline went out long ago. Not that I want to, but we can't fail anybody. The graduation rate must be protected at all cost. Not too many years ago the district was considered the best in the country. Now the superintendent wants us all to just pretend it is.
 
Ivy22 said:
Looks like more discretion given to COs at for what to do with sailors who do not pass PFAs. Also making it so a sailor who fails BCA will still pass if they get at least excellent-low
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This.

Standards aren't lowered directly, just a change in mandatory reporting.

Leadership is nuanced. When I was CO one of the best sailors I've lead ultimately left the Navy because of the PFA. Without being lewd, her body type being short and curvy/broad made the BCA, cardio events, pushups exceedingly hard for her. She wasn't a SEAL or infantry marine where high levels of fitness align with job performance, she was a diligent hard worker with exceptional attention to detail for the tasks her rate and the Navy set out for her. But because of the PFA and the resulting reporting, she decided to leave the service.

Yes, yes, yes -- with extreme diligence and a full-time commitment to fitness, sacrificing all else in her life, she probably could have done it. But that wasn't the life she wanted as a hopeful Mom and the Navy lost a good sailor, again, mainly because of reporting requirements.

Edit: I know this is anecdotal, but as a personal experience and seeing these changes, it resonates and makes me agree with the change. Especially given the national challenges being faced, per what @Devil Doc mentioned.
 
Devil Doc said:
I’m not arguing with you when I say this but of those mids who fail the PRT, would they have been better replaced by PT studs who can’t do calculus or grasp engineering principles?
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Well, my preference would be to have Midshipman who can be both..
brewmeist said:
There are people who feel you can cram for PRT like you can for an exam.
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When you are 18-22 years old, you can to some degree...it get's harder when you are older.

I really don't have much issue with fleet lowering PT standards.. Let's face it, many rating's in the Navy aren't as strenuous as some other services. The focus should be on Readiness, both the ability to do the job and stay healthy so you are available to do the job (along with the some reserve capability to respond to emergencies).

That said, USNA should keep its standards higher than the fleet. Something has changed in 30+ years -- I see so much angst about passing the CFA on this Forum as well as multiple threads on getting separated for failure to pass PRT. I barely recall my CFA --I didn't train for it (except for perhaps the basketball throw, as it wasn't something I did regularly). The CFA was simply something we were expected to pass. Same with the PRT ...I know we had sub squads, but it affected very few people. I don't remember anyone washing out for failure to pass PRT. I don't know if it was part of the selection process -- but Midshipmen were active, whether it be intramural sports or just running the perimeter. It is too bad if that has changed with the times.
 
Devil Doc said:
I’m not arguing with you when I say this but of those mids who fail the PRT, would they have been better replaced by PT studs who can’t do calculus or grasp engineering principl
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"PT studs" can be intelligent. I have yet to meet one of DS1's NSW officer peers who cannot do physics and calc at any level. My point - USNA has their choice of the best of the best. Lowering standard is always a bad idea
 
hopeful1998 said:
"PT studs" can be intelligent. I have yet to meet one of DS1's NSW officer peers who cannot do physics and calc at any level. My point - USNA has their choice of the best of the best. Lowering standard is always a bad idea
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I'm not an advocate for lowering standards. Someone above wrote about the number of midshipmen who can't pass the PRT and I was commenting on that.

The best of the best of what? Are the number of service academy applicants down? I don't know. Seems to me however that if the Naval
Academy can truly pick the best of the best, there would be none of them failing a simple mile and a half run.

Also, why the scare quotes. PT stud is a common term.

Further, my son has run a 300 PFT every year of his 12 plus years in the Marines and is the smartest man I know. I teach in a building with people with PhD's in physics, economics, and things I can't pronounce so I know a few smart people.
 
No scare qoutes - I've never heard the term. We are in agreement on the standards. I may have misunderstood your post at first as stereotyping.
 
Devil Doc said:
I’m not arguing with you when I say this but of those mids who fail the PRT, would they have been better replaced by PT studs who can’t do calculus or grasp engineering principles?
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There is a line a mile long of candidates that can do both and do them very well. Unfortunately, class building and what the powers that be want the brigade to look like is in conflict with the aforementioned dual capabilities. I pose this question, if you can't at least pass the PRT (which are really weak standards) how exactly are we expecting these same people to meet the demands of the fleet? The brigade can't even get through a parade without multiple Mids being carried off the field...how's it gonna work when you are operating on minimum sleep deployed and you have very poor physical fitness?
 
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