New Cadet BBQ

80's_NCO said:
"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

I guess we'll just have to believe you.
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Who says the two are mutually exclusive, really?

I could tell you I'm the Duke of Wellington. It would be just as credible a claim, for all anyone on here knows. That's the beauty of the Internet.
 
scoutpilot said:
Who says the two are mutually exclusive, really?

I could tell you I'm the Duke of Wellington. It would be just as credible a claim, for all anyone on here knows. That's the beauty of the Internet.
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I only believe the parents of dukes... :wink:
 
pointguard said:
no AC, or training, in the Federal, State, Local Govt buildings in the US now? These men/woman are on Federal land also, and 'working' and being paid just the same aren't they to a certain extent? Would it be the same if you shortened their school days but remained responsible for the same amount of work? Taking away necessities to do their job in a conducive environment for me doesn't equate.
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Who determines the minimum level of training and resources, necessities, of "conducive environment" for cadets? Certain not me and unless your are the Supe, not you either.

Leaders have to make hard decisions and have to live with it. In my personal opinion, soldiers should shot at least 2000 rounds a year with their individual weapon. The numbers will vary based individual opinions on how much shooting soldiers should do. For whatever reason, the Army leadership decided that the minimum requirement is for soldiers to qualify once or twice a year, which means soldiers good with their marksmanship skill, about 100 rounds per qualification.
 
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Right, I think Scoutpilot's point is he could be anyone on the internet for all we're concerned, but I'm fairly confident he is a captain or major in the U.S. Army, and that he is a 2004 USMA grad.
 
I'm glad my CV is the subject of such vigorous discussion.

In the end, why would anyone care who I am? You can all decide for yourselves what you want to believe, and that includes my opinions and supposed credentials.
 
PBA said:
Maybe same reason you were interested in who BenTherr is. Curiosity is a strange beast.

Nonetheless an interesting thread on varying beast views.
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Yeah, but I don't claim to be an innocent passerby/minister. I've stated who I am and made knowledgeable posts that would indicate I'm telling the truth about my credentials. If I'd told you all I'm a Polish veterinarian living out my days in Fiji who just happened to drop in, and then started talking about JAG and quoting Army regs and telling LITS his PAO folks are idiots, well you might question the veracity of my Polish animal-healing heritage.

My point is be truthful about where you're coming from. Whether people believe you is beyond your control, but don't come on here and BS people. Ain't nobody got time for that.
 
PBA said:
Maybe same reason you were interested in who BenTherr is. Curiosity is a strange beast.

Nonetheless an interesting thread on varying beast views.
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That's likely because BenTherr has no track record, but Scoutpilot has a fairly established one.
 
LineInTheSand said:
That's likely because BenTherr has no track record, but Scoutpilot has a fairly established one.
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It's pretty much a dead giveaway someone has an ax to grind or some skin in the game when they register and immediately make their first post in a contentious thread.
 
scoutpilot said:
It's pretty much a dead giveaway someone has an ax to grind or some skin in the game when they register and immediately make their first post in a contentious thread.
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I've been surprised at the number of new members who used their very first post to come out with their dukes up.
 
Dixieland said:
I've been surprised at the number of new members who used their very first post to come out with their dukes up.
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New members or new member.... they're just noise, unless they have something more concrete to contribute.
 
I have to admit, I have been reading this thread with the same anticipation of 'what's the next twist' like waiting for the next Walking Dead or Dexter Season.

Its hugely entertaining, but also horrifying. There is so much wrong here. We have 18 year old kids being trashed, most of whom can probably kick any posters tail, they are so fit, because they did what they are told? (Or is it because they are smiling in the pictures? Every class smiles in their pictures). Some weak sisters and brothers in the class? Sure there are. Always have been. They will get weeded out.

We have people who are so DEVOTED, (or so shallow) who make 3 to 6 THOUSAND posts denigrating those who signed up recently. Its hard to believe that either extreme doesn't share equally rich experiences beyond this silly thread, and have something to add.

We have Cadets who are what, 20? Critical of complex, exceptionally well considered decisions made by their chain of command, in a public forum. Your opinions are likely on target, but you are a soldier, and shouldn't share them once your higher ups have made a call.)

We have grads trashing parents. (You grads got in on your own? You didn't have 5 am Hockey practices mommy took you to?)

This is a weird thread.

I am a parent of a New Cadet. He/She has worked hard, h/s is fit. hs IS having fun. hs is very much looking forward to Academics and the Academic year. Makes hs a weenie? I don't think so. USMA wants well rounded scholar athletes. Half ARE all of it. Mine is. The half that are not, well friends, most of the weak half are pretty damn fit.......really athletic...so athletic they cannot do differential equations...... oh, but lets beat Navy and make an Officer that cannot do math or read a map and calls fire on his own guys.

Fitness should be assumed. I agree. But so should Calculus. There are folks the Army needs who cannot run 6 minute miles all day. (Mine can, not arguing that). This is 1972 redux. The US Army is going into Garrison. I want kids next to MY kid that can do the cyber, and languages, and keep him alive, (or give him an edge) and make him effective when the politicians f up and get us in another war.

These are good kids, the vast majority of them. As good as my Dad, my grand dads, and my great grand dads.

The whole thread reminds me of a line from one of the Adams Family remake movies. "....and each camper gets to catch and kill their own bear..."

You young cadets with all the opinions haven't killed anyone. All my friends and family members who have killed many people don't bully, don't brag, and don't post. All of the real killers that I know, who know some of these "BBQ" kids, think the Army has stuck the best possible balance.

Grads; these kids are good, and plenty tough.
Parents; this is about killing at the end of the day, and the kids need to be fit and precise
Cadets; that programmer may save your life, and be your boss, and retire you...If the Commandant doesn't first. Use better judgment.

The theme of this thread was lets hold Army to Physical Standards. My response is "Lets". Lets also hold them accountable to intellectual and character standards as well.

23 minute 2 mile? GONE. 500 SAT, GONE. No respect for 4 star decisions passed down to Beast? Gone.
 
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I started reading your post, and as I read (and it was certainly entertaining) I thought it sounded like you thought you knew what you were talking about, but were slightly missing the mark.... and then I read this and it all made sense.
nothingventurednothinggai said:
I am a parent of a New Cadet.
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And yes, I agree, this generally isn't on the cadets. It's on the leadership. But I don't agree cadets kick tail (having tangled with cadets, as a cadet.... for fun, mind you.)

My mommy drove me to 11 p.m. hockey practices. And yet, somehow she never thought she was a hockey player just for driving the car to the rink. I know! The nerve!!! :eek:

If you think this thread is bad, you have no idea how "real" it's going to be in the service that doesn't sugar coat stuff.
 
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It was meant tongue and cheek, but also from the hard core side, and from the heart. I haven't made 5000 posts, but have a vested interest in all things America, and some insight here and there. Even as a lowly Dad -;

One of the kids, presumably smiling, at Chaplin's time, is mine.

Just relax.....grads, parents, cadets, applicants......life is both unfair, and the cream does rise. My advise is just be yourself, and if yourself is highly skilled or fancy, be more discreet than people who post 5000 times on this site.

Take a note Bigbear.
 
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LineInTheSand said:
I started reading your post, and as I read (and it was certainly entertaining) I thought it sounded like you thought you knew what you were talking about, but were slightly missing the mark.... and then I read this and it all made sense.


And yes, I agree, this generally isn't on the cadets. It's on the leadership. But I don't agree cadets kick tail (having tangled with cadets, as a cadet.... for fun, mind you.)

My mommy drove me to 11 p.m. hockey practices. And yet, somehow she never thought she was a hockey player just for driving the car to the rink. I know! The nerve!!! :eek:

If you think this thread is bad, you have no idea how "real" it's going to be in the service that doesn't sugar coat stuff.
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Cool that you trumped hard times with the late hockey time. That had to be really tough. Just want to make a simple point to the Forum. Lots of folks on this site have opinions.

Lots are grads.

I don't see many Silver Star winners posting.

Point to the parents, 5000 posts doesn't make one a war hero.
 
LineInTheSand said:
I started reading your post, and as I read (and it was certainly entertaining) I thought it sounded like you thought you knew what you were talking about, but were slightly missing the mark.... and then I read this and it all made sense.
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Line in the sand, or stick up your ....?
It seems like you've got it in for people *because* they're parents.

See what attacking does? It prompts escalation.

Now, back to the real thread here (Remember the "BBQ?")

I've heard no mention of esprit de corps. In PLDC (Primary Leadership Development Course) we were taught that was one of the fundamental reasons for PT. Is that not true for cadets as well?

Also, who's responsible for, "bouncing" soldiers who don't meet APFT standards?

This is an interesting thread about an important topic. I just wish it could unfold in a more professional manner (i.e. no sniping).
 
nothingventurednothinggai said:
Cool that you trumped hard times with the late hockey time. That had to be really tough. Just want to make a simple point to the Forum. Lots of folks on this site have opinions.

Lots are grads.

I don't see many Silver Star winners posting.

Point to the parents, 5000 posts doesn't make one a war hero.
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Just so I'm clear...you married an admiral's daughter, and most of the men in your family served, though you yourself didn't...so that makes YOU qualified to decide who on here is a "killer"? Come on, man. Let's not go down that road.

Talking about those who've "killed" (there are more such people on here than you think) and what they do/don't do is doubly wrong, as it both minimizes the intense personal turmoil of having killed and the unique way each person deals with it, while simultaneously overstating its importance. Maybe 80's NCO killed someone. Maybe he didn't. It isn't relevant to his opinion on tough training or standards (Note: 80's NCO is just an example, I do not know him and don't profess to).

To put this kindly, you have no idea who is a "war hero" on here and who isn't. So please don't throw that around lightly. There are a few people on here who are bonafide American heroes (tpg is a great example). For everyone else, we can all only assume that each has done his/her duty to God, country, and family as they saw fit.

Let's not confuse a discussion on training methods (for which new cadets are neither responsible nor accountable) with some sort of measurement of the value of individual New Cadets as people, or whose family has done what, or who has fired in anger for America. They are separate discussions.

I do think that you seem to have it out for people who've posted a lot...people who've helped make this site a resource for people.

Lastly, everyone lay off BigBear. I haven't seen him disrespect the CoC yet. Respectful disagreement in an anonymous forum is permissible. He is clearly speaking for himself and not in any official capacity. If he crosses that line, many people will get on him. Until then, his opinions (respectfully stated) are his alone and are valid insights into a 4-year leadership laboratory. If you think that blind followership is how the military works, you'd be shocked to spend a day there.
 
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80's_NCO said:
It seems like you've got it in for people *because* they're parents.
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No no, I love parents.... who know their place.

Above we have a parent who feels the need to correct a cadet, an officer and a few veterans.... and his qualification to do so is.... he married some flag officers daughter (apparently not realizing the starts don't impress everyone). He goes so far to lecture about killing (something I'm sure some on here have done, although, not that parent).



I'm all for parents supporting their kids. I'm even for parents being very excited for their kids, dressing up in all the shirts and shorts and hats they can afford. I'm not at all for parents feeling the need to show how little they do know by lecturing those who do on the internet. Doesn't mean they CAN'T do it, but it does mean they shouldn't. Now if they have other qualifications, like they help with admissions, etc, sure have at it. But "my kid is a new cadet and my father in law was a flag officer" isn't a qualification beyond a conversation starter.
 
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