PFE

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foxtrotter

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I took the PFE at AIM over the summer and got a 210/300 (passing being a score of 200). I just submitted my academy application; should I retake the PFE? or keep that score? I am a smallish female for reference
 
Well how do you feel about your chances to improve your score if you take it again now? Have you been working out to address those activities? Was that 210 held back by a single weak score that you've been working on or did you do a good job (for you) across the board? If you were in great shape then from a current season, or you're out of shape or injured now, do you really think you can improve your numbers?

I'm just saying that 210 is likely a passing score, but it's not strong. So if you did pretty much what you're capable of then maybe let it ride, and if you think you can take a step up then give it a try. No clear answer without knowing you and your abilities.
 
I would say you should always be trying to improve your scores. It shows that you are continuing to work toward your goal of getting an appointment. However, if you know that improving that score would take a lot of training and time away from other priorities, then you need to weigh the pros and cons. If you think you might be able to improve, why not give it a shot? You still need a qualified person to score it for you and make sure you are completing it under the proper time constraints. If you improve, great! Submit the new score. If you don't, then obviously don't submit it. And then you can decide if you think you have the time and energy that you can set aside toward improving and taking it in another month or so.
 
Improving is better than not, no matter the topic.

Your score is below average. Not a lot, but below. By definition half the accepted class is below average. If you are a very strong candidate otherwise you might be fine with that score. If you're a good but not very strong candidate otherwise you should work on improving that score.

What were your scores on each event?

Sit-ups are 1 point each. Push ups are more than 1 point each, for females they're around 1.4 points each (10 more being worth about 14 points). For the run you gain 5 points for each 15-45 seconds of improvement (depending on your current time).

If you want to improve your score you have to train for it. Good news is the push ups and sit-ups you can do in under 10 minutes a day (5 minutes, really) and doesn't require anything special, something to help you go down only as fas as required and something you can use to hold your feet. A recording of the cadence is helpful, and youll want the timer on your phone for the sit ups. You can literally do it in your room. The run requires access to a track and someone to time you or a watch to time yourself.

Do those push ups and sit ups every single day, run that 1.5 miles at your school's track 3-7 days a week, and in a couple months retake the PFE. If you do that I'd be shocked if your score doesn't go up by 30 points overall. That would be adding 7 push ups, 10 situps and shaving about a minute off your run time.

Fwiw, that's what my son is doing. His first PFE (unofficial) was a 244. Push ups were his biggest weakness, by far. He REALLY wants a perfect 300. But he's also trying to be a recruited athlete. So he needs to shine in the PFE more than others do.
 
StPaulDad said:
Well how do you feel about your chances to improve your score if you take it again now? Have you been working out to address those activities? Was that 210 held back by a single weak score that you've been working on or did you do a good job (for you) across the board? If you were in great shape then from a current season, or you're out of shape or injured now, do you really think you can improve your numbers?

I'm just saying that 210 is likely a passing score, but it's not strong. So if you did pretty much what you're capable of then maybe let it ride, and if you think you can take a step up then give it a try. No clear answer without knowing you and your abilities.
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Thats a really good point, I had trained for the CFA a lot so I'm sure at least the pushups and situps will improve. Thank you for the advice!
 
Northwoods said:
Your score is below average. Not a lot, but below. By definition half the accepted class is below average.
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By definition half the class is below the median, not the average.😀

On a serious note, PFE scores are the greatest predictive indicator of injury during swab summer. While getting your score better might be advantageous to admissions (I would assume anything over 200 is basically the same) being in better shape will undoubtedly make your time in swab summer better and your time at the academy better. Being in shape is important if you want people to take you seriously in the military. Not everyone cares, but enough people do.
 
Sierra said:
By definition half the class is below the median, not the average.😀

On a serious note, PFE scores are the greatest predictive indicator of injury during swab summer. While getting your score better might be advantageous to admissions (I would assume anything over 200 is basically the same) being in better shape will undoubtedly make your time in swab summer better and your time at the academy better. Being in shape is important if you want people to take you seriously in the military. Not everyone cares, but enough people do.
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[Pedantic mode on] Mean and median are both measures of "average". While there can be more (or fewer) on one side of the mean due to outliers, in a sample of 300+ PFE scores the difference between the mean and median, and fraction of population on each side of the mean, is going to be very small. Especially when the minimum and maximum are bounded (160-180 minimum to be accepted to the academy, 300 maximum possible score). I'd bet it's like 1 or 2 students more on one side of the mean. [Pedantic mode off.]

Interesting note on the correlation of injury likelihood during swab summer vs. pfe score.

I have zero insider information but I'd have think that PFE score could be a differentiator between 2 potential cadets that are on the bubble for being offered admission. A 290, or a 240 is probably going to help vs a 210. A 215 or 220 vs a 210 might not matter much though.

I still stand by my previous statement that improving is better than not improving, whether on the PFE, standardized test scores, etc. Whether it's consequential to the application is another matter. Even if the student still fails to gain admission (or would have gained admission anyway) they're still better off for having tried and improved.
 
scprepoh said:
How many standard deviations is the average away from the median?
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Probably something very closely approximating zero.

That's true of a large amount of data sets, regardless of topic, if the set is large enough. Unless you have a bi-modal distribution, or outliers that significantly skew the mean, or some other very non-normal distribution.

It's also not how mean vs median is usually described.

Mean is what most think of when we say "average". If you have, say, pfe scores of 200, 203, 205, 205, 210, 215, 230, 246, 255, 276, and 285, the mean is the sum of those scores, divided by the number of points. In this case, 230. The median is the middle point of the set. In this example 215. They're far apart because it's a small set of 11 points that I deliberately skewed. With roughly 300 swabs completing the summer training, assuming there aren't a bunch of studs skewing the mean high, or a bunch of pudgy out of shape kids skewing it low, or both, the mean and median scores will be very close.

In statistics, standard deviation describes how far from the mean (not median) a given percentage of data points will be found. In a perfectly normal distribution, in a large data set, +-1 standard deviation will encompass I think 2/3 of the data points. +-3 standard deviations covers something like 95-99%. I'm sure that's a little off, but it is good enough for discussion purposes.

Outliers are usually defined as points beyond 3 standard deviations from the mean.
 
Loving the math.

Remember this whole process is HOLISTIC. If you have a 201 PFE, you have 7 AP/IB under your belt, you wrote 700/700 on SAT, you’re the XC captain and ran for 4 years, you’re an Eagle Scout, you play Oboe in the all state band, you speak Pig Latin, and you wash kiwi birds for charity, you’re going to stand out. That same person with a sub 190 would raise eyebrows in my mind. They’re wonderful, but would they be able to get through the physical rigors of SSTP, and go on to maintain fitness and certify as a law enforcement officer beyond commissioning day? Plus when those Midrats and delicious galley options kick in, will they have the discipline to maintain body composition standards?

I struggled with fitness since I’ve been 10 years old (and continue to not be naturally) in wonderful shape. Scoring well above 200 not only demonstrates fitness but commitment to routine. With the right routine, diet, and commitment, anyone can score a healthy 210-220 (coming from the person from a long line of genetic bellies). Cheers.
 
Let me give you an alternate view of the importance of the PFE from a possible academy point of view:

Every year they have a handful of cadets who do not graduate because they cannot pass their commissioning PFE. Some are due to senior year (1/c) sports injuries which is understandable and after rehab they will pass, but some are also due to the kid just can't pass. Commissioning PFEs are given in February of graduation year, and if you fail, you work with the coaches the next 3 months to get you to pass, and some still fail. The week before graduation, they take the PFE almost daily and still can't pass. This is bad for everyone, the cadet doesn't graduate and the USCG loses an officer at least temporarily, until they pass during their holdover time at the academy. Even their classmates lose, because the PFE failing cadet took a billet that someone else may have really wanted and the ship now has a vacancy they thought was filled.

The mission of the academy is to provide officers to the fleet. Knowing that kids PFE admissions score usually run high because PE coaches don't grade that strictly and they don't want an earful from the parents if they score the kid low, when admissions sees a PFE below 220 or so, they worry if the kid will commission. Kids who score low on the PFE are also more likely to be injured during Swab summer and require extra staff to give them extra PT time so they can try to improve. They often have to lose body fat as well. In summary low PFE kids use a lot of resources.

Every applicant knows the standard. Get with a trainer or HS coach and get to work improving your score, it will help you in so many ways in addition to your admissions prospect.

A final point, if during your 4 years at USCGA you become injured or fail a PFE, the academy will look at your PFE history as an indicator to retaining you. If you had a solid admissions PFE, good swab summer PFE scores and good scores each at each semesters PFE, you are going to get the benefit of the doubt because, in the military, you are what your record says you are. On the other hand, if you had a few semester PFE fails and the other scores are marginal, you will be in a precarious situation when you appear before the board to argue to stay enrolled and why put yourself through that. The PFE standards are not Olympic level, get to the gym now.
 
I had an appointment scheduled with an evaluator today to retest my PFE in the hopes of increasing my first score, but I badly rolled my ankle in basketball practice yesterday morning, and I am on crutches now, so that option is out the window!
 
Thank you for the concern, Northwoods and 27 BearDad. Fortunately, I think the scores from my previously submitted test are acceptable, but I was hoping to improve my run time a bit after all the cardio from bball this winter.
 
As a current cadet all I can say is Admissions works in mysterious ways. You could think you are God’s gift to humanity and still not get an appointment. Bottom line: do your best, set yourself up as well as you can, and have a backup plan.
 
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