Prep School Story

[AFrpaso]

We parents have been networking with social media, phone/text and in person at parents weekend, a-day and parent group meetings. Cadets talk with their parents. Here are a couple of the things being shared by parents of direct from high school cadets.

Many of those with preppie roommates during bct had problems. The top issue was being told point blank by the preppie that the high school basic was on their own when it came to bct because the preppie already had to go through this once and figure it out for him/herself. It didn't matter that the preppie knew he/she was expected to help and that the high school basic roommate was being held to a higher standard by the cadre. The cadre assumed that the preppie was being helpful, thus when the high school basic wasn't performing to a higher expectation, the cadre concluded it was because it was a problem with the high school basic. The high school basics don't speak up because they figure that they may not be believed, might be seen as a tattle tale, or that they are expected to handle everything themselves, etc. The parents remain quiet because it isn't their place to say something, the usafa knows and the kids are expected to find a way to deal on their own, or for fear speaking up could negatively impact their kid, maybe it's part of the bct training, etc. This isn't just a problem reported this year as parents of older cadets reported some of the same issues.

Note!!!!! The pre enlisted preppies and the pre enlisted direct were great. Sometimes the high school basic felt a little mothered, but those times were few, and of the eye roll category as opposed to the annoyed category.

Some Preppie kids were very cliquey. They often gravitated and associated only with other preppies, and they would only volunteer help to other preppies. If a direct out of high school basic was in a triple with 2 preppie roommates, she/he often felt excluded.

PLEASE NOTE: all preppies are not problems. There are some great ones out there. Also, I realize that feelings and impressions are not facts, but reactions to a given situation, and that a kids interpretation of a situation may be off. However, enough parents from across the country who never met before are reporting their kids, who are in different squadrons, are experiencing the same thing. So perhaps there is something to the cultural thing.

Perhaps the issue is in brining a diverse group of kids together, some who are friends and some who aren't, and as a result, it takes a while to pound out the "us" vs them into a we"

I agree with this. There definitely is a dichotomy between directs and preppies right out of the gate. The same separation happens between prior-Es and direct at the Prep School. Sometimes there are preppies who really just don't care and I can see those people keeping to themselves during basic. The fact is, there are plenty of directs who also just don't care. It seems like common sense that the preppies should help out the directs, and it is often encouraged in the first few weeks. The fact is that people catch on to the routine pretty quickly. In reality, the preppies get a very slight advantage, although sometimes it might seem like a huge advantage. I've gone through 17 weeks of basic training. Personally, I never felt like it got easier. There are many aspects of the Hill which are different than the Prep School. I would argue that preppies are under just as much stress as the directs during BCT.



Preppies view other preppies as an extensive support network to help them get through the struggle of freshman life. Yes, they are a little cliquey, but can you really blame them? Good friends are a godsend in a stressful environment. Over the years that follow basic training, the preppie and direct labels pretty much disappear.

 

[AFrpaso]

I had a number of classmates who were prior enlisted. . .

Got it. Thanks for filling me in!

During my prep school year, we lost 9 prior-Es. Since I-day a little over a year ago, we've only lost 1 during BCT.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Got it. Thanks for filling me in!

During my prep school year, we lost 9 prior-Es. Since I-day a little over a year, we've only lost 1 during BCT.

I would guess (and remember, this is CGA, so the numbers are smaller) we had 3-4 prior enlisted with 3+ years service and (not including the technicality that NAPSters were enlisted) probably 3-6 others with around a year service. Of those 3+, maybe one (but I'm guessing zero) went through prep. Of the 3-6 others, I think one or two went through prep.

For the Coast Guard, it was not a bastion of enlisted recruiting…. not even in proportion to the size of the academy it was feeding.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I’ve been a member for a while and this topic always shows up. Is the Prep school worth it and it eventually boils down to the red shirt thing. The only person that I remember having ever given facts and research on this topic was Hornet. LITS if you want those number go search Hornet previous post you’ll find it eventually. He gave an excellent account of the data gathered and I think forms a very educated, but unpopular, opinion on the Prep School.

This is just my opinion but based on the grad rates and the percentage going into rated slots the Prep is not successful and changes need to be made. Shutting it down is not the answer but radical changes need to be implemented; not on who they let in but who they let through.

Right, I remember the numbers coming up somewhere and the basic conclusion was, prep grades were below average in completing their education at an academy.

 

[Rocko]

How would you suggest an enlisted member, out of school for 3+ years deal with entering a college environment?

Do enlisted member's belong at a Service Academy?

Does diversity belong at a Service Academy?

My oldest son is enlisted Air Force. He is taking classes at night and using TA to pay for it. His "Plan" is to get his degree within 6 years and then try to commission via OCS. So there is a route for enlisted to commission other than going to the Academies. I also think there is a program in place for them to take ROTC and go to school and then commission but I'm not real clear on that.

I'm not saying that they don't belong at the Academy as that certainly isn't for me to say but if you took it away they still have avenues to commissioning which I assume is the ultimate goal.....

 

[MedB]

We are starting to get into the anecdotal comments here and just so we’re clear: Anecdotal adjective, not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
(snip)
I’ve been a member for a while and this topic always shows up. Is the Prep school worth it and it eventually boils down to the red shirt thing. The only person that I remember having ever given facts and research on this topic was Hornet. LITS if you want those number go search Hornet previous post you’ll find it eventually. He gave an excellent account of the data gathered and I think forms a very educated, but unpopular, opinion on the Prep School.

Here is a thread where several studies/facts on the topic were cited by a few of us including Hornet. It's a few dozen pages of a balanced debate that stayed mostly on track (skip the last 3 or so pages).
http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=33466

Note: Those interested may also want to look at the sub-links mentioned in that thread by a few of us as they point to other related factual studies.



To Lits,

By the way, your graduation rates comparison data is also discussed in that thread. But as pointed out there, the numbers probably SHOULD be lower given the stated mission of the prep school. Enjoy.

 

[Boozebin]

Thanks Med

I knew it was out there just to lazy to link it

And LITS I thought I was getting old and my memory was slipping you commented on that thread your memory is slipping my friend!

I think we all agree that the needs of all the SA have changed drastically since the inception of Prep and changes should and need to be made.

 

[MombaBomba]

I agree with this. There definitely is a dichotomy between directs and preppies right out of the gate. The same separation happens between prior-Es and direct at the Prep School. Sometimes there are preppies who really just don't care and I can see those people keeping to themselves during basic. The fact is, there are plenty of directs who also just don't care. It seems like common sense that the preppies should help out the directs, and it is often encouraged in the first few weeks. The fact is that people catch on to the routine pretty quickly. In reality, the preppies get a very slight advantage, although sometimes it might seem like a huge advantage. I've gone through 17 weeks of basic training. Personally, I never felt like it got easier. There are many aspects of the Hill which are different than the Prep School. I would argue that preppies are under just as much stress as the directs during BCT.



Preppies view other preppies as an extensive support network to help them get through the struggle of freshman life. Yes, they are a little cliquey, but can you really blame them? Good friends are a godsend in a stressful environment. Over the years that follow basic training, the preppie and direct labels pretty much disappear.

I am not suggesting that preppies are under less stress during BCT. I am not suggesting that forming friendships and a support network is a bad thing. What concerns me is the refusal to help and/or work with others because they are not a preppy and thus not a part of their "BFF" group. Over time, this "attitude" may or may not disappear depending on the person involved. The fact that it happens leaves a negative impression of preppies which doesn't just disappear. Most people don't forget being "thrown under the bus." Since it happens year after year, this suggests it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

It's one thing to look to form lasting friendships and a support network. It is another to discriminate against someone because he/she isn't part of that "special group."

One of the purposes of any academy is to integrate each individual into a large cohesive group, and pound into them that it isn't about the "me" but about the "we." If the prep school is consistently producing a subset which is about the "us vs them," then it is hindering one of the important goals of the academy.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Momba Bomba,

That may be unique to certain schools or individuals.

My experience with my prep classmates or even non-prep prior enlisted classmates was positive. Over Swab Summer at CGA, the handful of NAPSters in my platoon were willing to lend a helping hand, tell people they were doing well, or giving advice.

I remember one classmate that summer looking at me as I was really feeling down and saying "you'll be fine". I'm pretty sure he had something less than kind to say about our platoon commander, but I was OK with that.

Preppies or prepsters or whatever they're called, are set up nicely for that first summer of training. The yelling and the indoc and the environment is not new or shocking for them (a fact not lost on the cadre, who, at times, would focus on a NAPSter). When the academic year rolls around, especially if they went to prep because they were less prepared academically, it's a whole new game. Academically-strong cadets are in a good position to help them out.

You don't get through a service academy on your own. I know the names of classmates I credit with my completion of four years at CGA. Sometimes I needed help (Swab Summer was rough) sometimes others needed help from me. You get through it as a team, graduate and then enter a fleet where you are, again, a member of a team.

I don't doubt there are less than helpful prepsters out there, but at CGA, it that was not my personal experience (both as a swab, and from what I saw as a cadre).

 

[LineInTheSand]

Thanks Med

I knew it was out there just to lazy to link it

And LITS I thought I was getting old and my memory was slipping you commented on that thread your memory is slipping my friend!

I think we all agree that the needs of all the SA have changed drastically since the inception of Prep and changes should and need to be made.

Oh, I really liked my funny lines in the final three pages of that thread.... our Pi$$ing match....

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

LITS, you may be right that it may be school related. I don't know since I don't have that insight.

I think MommaBomba isn't saying that all preppies have this cliquey attitude, but there are some, and I have heard enough from other parents to agree that there is an issue here, especially amongst the recruited athletes. Again - not all! I don't want to paint with a broad brush.

We hear all the time about how sports fosters teamwork. Well, here's the chance to show that it can be expanded beyond a sports team. There are so many missed opportunities to show leadership when cliques are formed. So many chances to look good to the leadership when you expand out of that clique/subculture and help and work with the other classmates.

Having said that, Gen. Johnson has stated she is looking into the "subcultures" and is focused on fixing it. I hope that includes changing the coaches' attitudes as well since I believe that the attitudes are fostered by the leadership. Just my own silly opinion, but I own it.

Seriously, it's a simple matter of respecting your fellow cadets, regardless of how they got there (direct, prep, or prior). Each one of them worked hard, overcame, and succeeded to get where they are today. I would think that that's enough to earn your classmate's respect.

 

[MombaBomba]

Momba Bomba,

That may be unique to certain schools or individuals.

My experience with my prep classmates or even non-prep prior enlisted classmates was positive. Over Swab Summer at CGA, the handful of NAPSters in my platoon were willing to lend a helping hand, tell people they were doing well, or giving advice.

I remember one classmate that summer looking at me as I was really feeling down and saying "you'll be fine". I'm pretty sure he had something less than kind to say about our platoon commander, but I was OK with that.

Preppies or prepsters or whatever they're called, are set up nicely for that first summer of training. The yelling and the indoc and the environment is not new or shocking for them (a fact not lost on the cadre, who, at times, would focus on a NAPSter). When the academic year rolls around, especially if they went to prep because they were less prepared academically, it's a whole new game. Academically-strong cadets are in a good position to help them out.

You don't get through a service academy on your own. I know the names of classmates I credit with my completion of four years at CGA. Sometimes I needed help (Swab Summer was rough) sometimes others needed help from me. You get through it as a team, graduate and then enter a fleet where you are, again, a member of a team.

I don't doubt there are less than helpful prepsters out there, but at CGA, it that was not my personal experience (both as a swab, and from what I saw as a cadre).

I am glad that wasn't your experience. I also agree that each cadet can bring something to the table to assist his fellow cadets etc. The problem is that SOME do not grow out of the "us vs. them" mentality, and it follows them all four years. We reap what we sow. So, in the future, how motivated will a direct high school cadet be to help or assist his/her fellow "preppie" cadet after being treated badly?

As USAFA83GradWife pointed out, there is an acknowledged subculture issue that the USAFA is trying to address. Most of the "preppie" issues are among recruited IC prep school athletes.

I was surprised to learn that IC athletes had special tables for meals in the past. They were segregated out and didn't eat with their squadrons but with their team mates. This has now changed, and I think that is a very good thing. This type of segregation promoted the "us vs. them" mentality and encouraged subcultures.

Some squadrons now mandate that the C4C IC athletes must room with C4C non IC athletes. This is a good thing.

I believe that anyone at the academy should identify themselves as a USAFA cadet first and foremost.

I heard many comments regarding the special treatment IC athletes get. These comments were from parents whose kids are IC athletes in varying sports. One comment I didn't really understand then, but do now, was how as a C4C the IC didn't have to run on the lines when with their team mates. I was also informed by parents that the USAFA takes better care of IC athletes and keeps a closer eye on them. I was told football players are the golden boys and want for nothing. During BCT, the IC athletes get to go off with their team mates for a while to meet with the coaches, while the rest of the BCT cadets have to participate as usual. This is all from parents. This is parental belief and information being passed on. Some is true, some is speculation, some is false, some is partial and some is exaggerated. But the one thing I am sure of is this "information" gets back to the cadets. Whether true or not, it certainly doesn't help the sub-cultural issues and promotes the "us vs. them" mentality.

Now, again my disclaimer: I don't think all preppies are problems. I don't think all IC athletes are problems. I think there are wonderful and stellar examples of cadets who are preppies and/or IC athletes. I think there are some problems that need to be addressed, but I don't believe that means everything is tainted. I don't see the entire barrel as rotten.

 

[Boozebin]

Oh, I really liked my funny lines in the final three pages of that thread.... our Pi$$ing match....

Yeah once you and DevilDog started in on each other I just sat down read it everyday

After reading MombaBomba and USAFA83GradWife’s post they bring up a good point about the subcultures. From what I've seen (so take that for what it’s worth) on these Prep post it starts with an article of some type of news of a Prep getting in trouble then the post evolves into “…is the Prep school worth…” and it always turns into the recruited athlete issue.

To address the subculture thing I don’t think it is as much a bad thing as it is the individual. I remember when I was enlisted active duty many moons ago clique are all over the Air Force. The Comms guys hung out together, SP guys hung out together, etc. I’m sure it’s the same way with the officers as well like the fliers tend to hang out together and such. I think it’s just a bird of a feather thing.

Where it become a bad thing is when the group or individuals in the group begin to think they are better than someone else because they belong and you don’t. I think that’s what you've run into in the parents’ group. What they probably need is a session or briefing or whatever on what their expected behavior is when they get to out of Prep and onward to the Hill.

Hell I've pound it into my son's head already not to think he’s better than anyone else if he’s lucky enough to make it out of Prep and when he’s at BCT he better help the directs. If they are struggling and he doesn't help or give up on them he’s the failure because at least the direct is trying.

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

Hell I've pound it into my son's head already not to think he’s better than anyone else if he’s lucky enough to make it out of Prep and when he’s at BCT he better help the directs. If they are struggling and he doesn't help or give up on them he’s the failure because at least the direct is trying.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Boozebin, I think you've got it exactly right. Of course, people hang out with those who share interests. That's to be expected. That's when you make those life long friends.
To exclude others when team-building should be the goal is a problem. Basics telling another Basic that "you don't belong here" is definitely the wrong message to send (yes, it was done and a reason a Basic left during BCT. It wasn't the environment he expected.) Ok, I know the cadre said it, too, but that's their job to find those who aren't 100% committed and mentally tough. The Basics, though, are told, you can't make it through alone. What happens when you feel alone?

Boozebin, I think your son will be a great asset!

 

[Boozebin]

Boozebin, I think your son will be a great asset!

Thank you for the complement and I hope so as well but that's yet to be seen. Don't want to count chickens an all that.

I've given the advise now it's up to him what he does with it. As thick headed as that knucklhead can be I can only hope